PT Anakin Deserved More Respect From The Jedi Council

yeah the jedi way in the prequels is why he turned, but be off topic but cant wait to see Luke due away with that.

 

Accepting death as a natural part of life is so right on the money, lets close all hospitals. Lets stop training doctors. Let's not have security or public safety forces. Do away with health and safety. No weather forecasts or earthquake/tsunami. Don't lock your doors at night, especially if you are leaving your children alone in them. Seatbelts? They are for the Sith.

Yoda's response was a glib reaction to the possibility that Anakin may perceive things that Yoda cannot, and may be equipped to alter the course of events which could lead to a wrongful death.

 

That's a lot of strawmen. Were they selling them in packs?

Try addressing the actual issue instead of bringing up fallacies.

 

No strawmen. "Spot on." according to how we an Anakin should appreciate Yoda's wholly inadequate reaction.

 

Not only this,

But what Yoda talks about, accepting that death is a natural part of life and not mourning or grieving.
Those are NOT the same thing.
A person can be totally accepting of death as a part of life and yet will probably be sad when a friend or a loved ones dies and then mourn for a while. That is normal, that is healthy!
I would say that most normal people are like this. They accept death as a part of life BUT will also mourn for a while. To say their goodbyes, let go of the people that died, etc.

I would also say that refusing to mourn or grieve is just as unhealthy as not accepting death.
Both attitudes will likely lead to problems.

And the idea that you should be able to let go of people that you care about.
Mourning and grieving is PART of that. It involves saying your goodbyes, letting your feelings about the person come out, deal with them and let those feelings go.
So Yoda saying that you must NOT mourn at all, that will really not help letting go.

So not only does Yoda come across as cold and uncaring, he also gives really bad advice.
Learning to accept loss involves grieving, to say your goodbyes, to deal with the emotions you have.
Becoming chained to grief is bad but refusing to accept that a person is dead or grieving over that person, that will likely also be bad.
Then the emotions will simply stay buried and fester and come out worse.
This happened with Anakin and his mother. He didn't let go of her, he tried to bury his emotions and pretend like they were not there. But they were and when she died, they all came out, bad!

I also wonder why Yoda didn't mention the "always in motion is the future."
That visions won't always come true, that the future is not set.

Another thing, does Yoda know about what happened with Shmi?
That Anakin had bad dreams about her and then she was killed by sand people?
If so, then a bit of sympathy would be in order. That he could talk about Anakin's past experience of this, how it made him feel and so on.
In general, sympathy was very lacking on Yoda's part.

In closing, given how the PT are supposed to be, an unemotional robot that relies on cold logic 100% of the time. It would be the ideal Jedi.
There would be no emotions getting in the way, no way that past friendships, family connections or such things will ever matter. It will always do what is needed, with a total focus on what is the most logical way, what serves the common good.
And there would be zero chance of it turning to the dark side as there is no fear, anger or hate with the robot.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

We do see, in TPM, that Qui-Gon has achieved a balance of things. He supports the Jedi Code and way of life, but he's able to show true kindness and sympathy. He cares about both Ani and Shmi, and wants to do what's best for both of them. And he's able to tell Ani that life as a Jedi will not be easy, and gives him the chance to make his own decision. If we factor in the EU, he even makes provision for Shmi's freedom and comfort. Had he lived, there's a case to be made that Ani would've been a better Jedi and resisted Palpatine's influence.

Kenobi seems to be headed towards this state by ROTS, but he still isn't quite able to reconcile the seemingly opposing viewpoints. He does show sympathy for both Ani and Padme, and later for Luke, but he still puts those aside to tell boldfaced lies and advise against Luke caring for his friends' fates. Still, he does weep when Qui-Gon is killed, which is a definite break from Yoda's viewpoint.

I still believe that the Jedi could've taught that a balance between professional distance and loving care, even loving attachment, is possible. After all, we see doctors, firefighters, soldiers and police officers do this every day. But the Jedi were so afraid of the Dark Side that they leaned very far in the direction of professional distance. As a result, they, perhaps inadvertently, didn't realize the effect such a view would have on Ani or others. Which was precisely what Palpatine was banking on.

 

His advice was spot on. You fallacious argument wasn't. Yoda didn't say "don't save others". He didn't say "don't help others". He said let go of your fear, greed and attachment. Anyone who's a little bit honest with their argument knows that. Of course, can't expect that from everyone.

 

Anakin went to Yoda hoping that he would tell him how to stop people from dying by using the Force. That's why he is there and not talking to Obi-wan. Yoda doesn't tell him what he wants and Palpatine does. That's not Yoda's fault.

Yoda says to train himself to let go of his fears. He didn't say do nothing. A Jedi does not act on fear and Anakin acted out of fear. And Yoda's advice is the same thing that he tells Luke.

LUKE: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

YODA: "Strong am I with the Force...but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things...the way of the Force."

Everyone dies, but how you choose to face death is as important.

 

So, why didn't Yoda tell him that he didn't mean "do nothing"? Consider:

Yoda and Mace are two very powerful Jedi. And, as Jedi, they can sense other people's thoughts & emotions. Maybe not thoughts deep down, but certainly surface impressions. And Ani wears his emotions on his sleeves, chest and forehead. Why didn't Yoda realize Ani wasn't hearing what he wanted and was feeling disappointed? Why didn't he think, "The kid doesn't understand. I'm losing him. I need to stress some positive things in the situation. I can't leave him with no hope." So, he tells Ani that he can still take reasonable precautions, but to prepare for the worst, if it happens, which it might not. But, he doesn't do that. He stops at "Mourn them not, miss them not." Let them die, forget them, and attachments bring the Dark Side, without exception.

Later, when Mace sees Ani's reaction in the Council Chamber, he didn't need Jedi powers to pick up on the problem. He could've said, "You're a brave and skilled warrior, and a guardian of the Republic. But it takes more to be a Jedi Master. It takes wisdom and maturity, which you haven't developed yet. In time, you will. Be patient and calm. Please take your seat." But, he doesn't do that. He tells Ani to sit down and shut up.

About the only time Ani gets positive words from a Jedi in ROTS was when Kenobi speaks to him as a friend after the crash, and before leaving for Utapau. Those might've been enough to get Ani to back off on his obsessions and even open up to Kenobi on the problem. But, by the departure, Kenobi had also told him to break the law with the flimsy excuse of, "We're at war." Couple that with Yoda & Mace's words, and Ani was definitely feeling distanced and disrespected.

By that reckoning, why didn't Yoda & Mace notice Ani's frustrations and try to defuse them in a good way, rather than just sternly dismiss him? Any boss or superior officer would know the value of such an action; why didn't the Jedi?

 

So Yoda saves Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC even though letting Dooku go is very bad for the Republic why exactly?

Exactly!

 

There really shouldn't be any Jedi. Justice is not a natural part of life. The desire to control things with an unfair advantage of being able to use magic is presumptuous and selfish.

 

The Jedi don't seek to control things. They follow the will of the Force. They're instruments of the Force. Ideally.

Justice is a part of the natural order. Any religious philosophy will tell you that.

 

Justice is not part of a natural anything, unless you are talking about the judgement of the creator.

Neither is peace unless you accept that conflict is also a part of nature.

 

Because training one self to let go of fear and attachment is not "do nothing". Yoda is not responsible for what you decide to interpret or take away from what he said. What he said actually leaves no room for interpretation, since it's pretty explicit.

 

I believe if you had inquired more instead of giving that horrible advice and said why do you think your going to lose her, let me help you Anakin wouldn't have felt the need to go to palatine he didn't turn because of power he turned to save his wife and children but then got sucked into the dark side.

 

Telling Anakin to change how he feels about losing something, without exploring any reasonable options for preventing that loss (particularly the violent, traumatic losses that are characterised by Anakin's accurate visions) is essentially telling him to do nothing.

You can tolerate all kinds of of iniquities by just "training" yourself to not be moved by them emotionally. The blanket advice that Yoda gives is woefully inadequate as is his attempts to nail the root cause and subject of Anakin's visions.

Yoda makes no serious attempt to understand the nature of the problem and any pragmatic solutions. (at least in ESB he closes his eyes for a second and senses the danger that Luke's friends are encountering and admits that he is likewise unable to perceive the outcome ) He just repeats broad platitudes.

Last time. : Yoda never tell Anakin to let go of his fears. This is another broad and useless platitude anyway. If the Jedi let go of their fears then they wouldn't be afraid of injustice and conflict and therefore there wouldn't be any need for Jedi to intervene in anything, ever.

Yoda tells Anakin to let go of the things that he is afraid of losing. That is not the same as letting go of your fear. i.e. if you accept that someone is already dead, then you've got nothing to be afraid of. That is correct insofar as worrying about an eventuality is not always helpful and is a waste of time if worry is your only emotion concerned with an event. Whether you can influence the outcome or not.

The only time that being pro-active regarind fear is invoked is when it is stated that controlling fear is essential. You cannot let something go and control it at the same time.

Once you start entertaining broad, stupid and ultimately shallow platitudes like just "letting go" you can stop pretending to be wise. (this is a consistent with Lucas's attitude towards hippies and their half-baked and often hypocritical adoption of quasi spiritual concepts )

 

Why did Mace say " if what you say is true, you would have gained my trust ". Would you have to gain anyone's trust, if they already trusted you. He didn't trust Anakin to fight Sidious either, as you see in this video. I never said Mace didn't have his reasons, but you can clearly see the 2nd highest ranked Jedi on the Council, telling Anakin he doesn't trust him yet.

 

Hmmm. So Mace sensed some danger to Anakin having any more involvement with Palpatine and takes measures to prevent it.

Why doesn't Mace just let go of Anakin and therefore control whatever fear he has? If Anakin were to die then he'll just have to accept it and not mourn or miss him. Or maybe Mace was sensing the danger to himself from Anakin, and that's why he sends him away?


(But then again, common sense, not Jedi sense, helped the Jedi to recognise the danger in putting Anakin together with certain people. Yet they do it anyway. )

 

Because it would prove that Anakin ended up being able to handle his mission.

Mace didn't trust Anakin up to that point. He said as much in a previous scene.

He said he didn't want Anakin to go because his judgement was clouded by fear.

He, Mace Windu, didn't. The Council did.

 

I'm confused. If the Council thinks Ani is unreliable and untrustworthy, and is far too malleable and influenced by Palpatine, why send him to spy on Palpatine? How do you know he'll provide accurate information, and not become a triple agent? How do you know Palpatine wouldn't pick up on this immediately (which he did)? Unless they fully expected him to double-cross them, which makes their later, hasty actions even more confusing.

I think the Jedi just didn't think this through, which (again) was exactly what Palpatine was aiming for.

 

They have to use Anakin as the spy, as he's the only Jedi with enough of the Chancellor's trust to get any useful information.

Which does work, Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, and Anakin reports this to Mace. Only Anakin then decides to help Palpatine in the end.

 

It's given in words, the Mace didn't trust Anakin. It's in the words and actions. Yes Windu and the Council didn't trust Anakin's his judgement. Even as a little boy the Council didn't trust or believe in Ani.

 

No, Windu didn't trust him. Not the Council, hence why he got the mission.

What?! Who said they didn't trust Anakin or believed in him? That was never a factor in TPM. They didn't accept him for training because he was too old. Not accepting him for training =/= not trusting him.

 

Because the answer is clear, the only way out is through. Meaning that he must train himself to let go of his fears and once he has, the answer will be clear to him. He's known for thirteen years that fear, anger and hate lead to the dark side. He knows that he must let go of his fears and he will know what to do. He just refuses to take the more difficult path to solving his problems and is interested in the quick and easy path.

Yoda doesn't think that he's losing Anakin, because he doesn't sense that he is losing him. At this point, Anakin is only afraid. He doesn't know who the attachment is to and what the nature of the vision is, other than someone close to him will die. Anakin is not forthcoming about anything, so Yoda can only work with what he is given. The next time he sees Anakin, a few hours later, he is now angry at being denied the rank of Master. A different emotion over a different matter. His cause for concern lies with anger and pride, but because of his duty to the Republic, he must leave for Kashyyyk and trust that Obi-wan can handle things.

Because a Jedi such as Anakin should know better than to show an emotional outburst like that. It was disturbing to him and the Council as a whole that he reacted like that. It is not his place to coddle him. He treated him the same as he would any other Jedi who acted like that.

The Council has lost faith in Anakin in recent months. They're bothered by his growing and continuing outbursts and disregard for the Jedi Code. This is probably not the first time they've gone around on this and have probably begun to reach the limits of their patience with him. Sterner methods were probably required. As to having positive affirmation, that is precisely the problem. He is seeking validation, which is a matter of pride and a trait unbecoming of a Jedi. These are dangerous things for him and even Obi-wan is bothered by them as well. The problem with Obi-wan was that he was trying too hard to be his friend and not be his Master, which is why his betrayal hurt and why he blames himself. He saw the warning signs and turned a blind eye to them.

Hence the will of the Force. The Jedi follow the will of the Force which is use the Force for knowledge and defense of others. But a Jedi should never use the Force to control others, which is what the Sith and the Ren have done. Nor should a Jedi use the Force in an unnatural way, such as trying to cheat death.

They do accept that. That is why the Jedi are the guardians of the peace, because they have to fight to ensure that peace is maintained.

Yoda doesn't know that he's seeing Padme, his wife and soon to be mother of his children, dying. Anakin does not tell him anything. Now was the time for him to be honest and he refused due to his selfish desire to continue to be a Jedi, while breaking the Code. As to the nature of why he is seeing it, that is unknown even to a Jedi like Yoda. What he does know is that Anakin has attachment issues and these issues have not gone away.

Yoda closes his eyes to check in the Force himself. That's why he says that it is difficult to see and Obi-wan himself also backs that up by saying that even Yoda cannot see their fates. The point of what Yoda was telling Anakin is, as I said, that he must approach the situation with calm and steady nerves. He must not be afraid and once he is no longer afraid, he can make the more rational and logical decisions about what to do.

"What you fear to lose, train yourself to release. Let go of fear, and loss cannot harm you."

This comes from the novelization and puts into a greater context of what Yoda is telling Anakin. He has to let go of his fear of loss and in doing so, the loss of a loved one will not hurt as much otherwise. It is the fear of loss that is the problem, more than the loss itself. If you are not afraid to lose someone, then you are not driving yourself into a frenzy before it happens. As to letting go of fears and controlling it, this is about a Jedi in battle versus a Jedi in an emotional state. When a Jedi fights a Sith, they must not let emotions such as fear, anger and hate enter their hearts. Because it can join them quickly in a battle and consume them. When Dooku goads Anakin, he starts off saying that he can sense the boy's fear.

DOOKU: "I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don’t use them."

Anakin is filled with fear for Obi-wan because he may have been seriously hurt by Dooku and that fear starts to overwhelm him until he turns around and uses his anger and hate to defeat Dooku. When Vader goads Luke...

VADER: "Obi-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear... now release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."

Here again, Luke is filled with fear and he is trying to control it and is urged to use his anger and hate. This is also a problem because it is a temptation to use the dark side. As Yoda also told Ezra, fear is something that is always there.

YODA: "Padawan, thousands of Jedi once there were. Then came war. In our arrogance, join the conflict swiftly we did. Fear, anger, hate. Consumed by the dark side the Jedi were."

EZRA: "Was it wrong for the Jedi to fight? Is it wrong for me to protect my friends?"

YODA: "Wrong? Hmm. A long time, fought I did. Consumed by fear I was, though see it I did not."

EZRA: "You were afraid?"

YODA: "Yes, afraid. Hmm, surprised are you? A challenge lifelong it is, not to bend fear into anger."

A Jedi must always be aware of their fear and do their best to control it. They must not let that fear turn to anger, the anger that comes at the threat to loved ones and of their own weaknesses and frailties. In the matter of loss like that of a loved one, like with Padme, the Jedi in question must not let fear of loss drive them to distraction. As you yourself pointed out, "That is correct insofar as worrying about an eventuality is not always helpful and is a waste of time if worry is your only emotion concerned with an event. Whether you can influence the outcome or not." This is Anakin's problem. He wants to affect the outcome of his visions and does so because the emotions that come with loss are too great for him to handle. The only way to handle it is to train himself to not be afraid of the loss.

The Council trusted him with the assignment, but privately Mace and Yoda don't trust him to be objective and impartial. The problem is that Anakin is loyal to people over principles. Anakin has a tendency to side with a person over his greater sense of duty. So the concern is that Anakin will do something, which is what we see him do. He cannot remain objective when it comes to Palpatine. If he was trustworthy, he would have stayed in the Temple as he was told to do. But he leaves because he is afraid that the Jedi Posse will kill Palpatine and if he dies, she dies.

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

The Council didn't know if Anakin was the Chosen One or not, when he first was brought before them. But after the Battle of Naboo, they did make an effort to trust him and believe that he may be the Chosen One. Yoda is the only one who is uncertain because of the boy's emotional connections and told the Council and Obi-wan this. In AOTC, Mace does state that the Council is confident in Anakin's ability to handle his first mission without a senior Jedi accompanying him. Obi-wan is the only one who objects to this. In ROTS, Obi-wan is the only one confident in Anakin and the Council is not, because their trust in Anakin has eroded over the last few months.

 

Based on the "Knights are normally promoted to Master after their first Padawan is Knighted" principle (which may apply in the newcanon - at least, Obi-Wan was not promoted to Master until during the Clone Wars, which was also when Anakin was promoted to Knight):

http://www.starwars.com/databank/obi-wan-kenobi-biography-gallery

then, given that the Council were offering Ahsoka promotion to Knight (instead, she resigned completely), Anakin may be feeling like Mastery has been dangled before him then taken away.

The "On the council, but not a Master" comment from Mace, probably poked this fresh wound.