PT Anakin Deserved More Respect From The Jedi Council

This!!

A: You are asking me to go against the code, against the mentor and the friend ...That's what is out place here...Why you asking this of me?
K: The council is asking you..

Palps later on: They ask you to do something that made you feel dishonest, didn't they? They asked you to spy on me, didn't they?

Did Palps truly cares for Ani? It depends on who you ask...but he took the time to know Ani in enough to manipulate him, where the Council gets lost in translation, I feel between their fixed notion of The Chosen One, and who Ani truly was. Not demonizing the Council here...I understand taking in a kid who is already set in his ways is quite a challenge..But they took it yet were unwilling/unable to open up to the experience, and that's were Palps takes the upper hand. If not in the Chambers, Ani had every right to feel disrespected once Kenobi informs him that the only reason for his appointment without title is so he can report back on the dealings of a mentor of his.

SHAD0W-JEDI I get what you're saying, but it doesn't take away the fact that the Council contributed to Anakin's lack of self-awareness. Also from personal experience, its extremely difficult to speak with people who have a very fixed opinion of you...you are right though no one is off the hook here.

Exactly! What Yoda tells him is no different from: But you can't stop the change, any more than you can't stop the suns from setting. Alas, Shmi was able to speak to Ani's level of awareness, while Yoda's message gets lost as Anakin takes it as confirmation of his fears rather than a nudge to be mindful of what is happening to him.

 

SHAD0W-JEDI Yes, the echo between Mace and Luke...if only.

 

It was Anakin's decision to lose/ignore Yoda's message. He knew very well what Yoda meant, just as he knew what Shmi meant. But Anakin made a counscious decision to act on his fears, attachment and greed. It was a free choice. The consequences are on him.

 

Some of the arguments presented here are valid, if we're just talking about regular people. But this is a story of Sith, Jedi and a young man with powerful potential who has, after growing up as a regular person, taken on the life of a Jedi and also has a fear of losing his attachment, again. While this story does help us look to our own human nature, there's no point in expecting Yoda to advise this situation as if he & Ani are both completely regular people.

But Anakin could not and would not talk about his secret marriage or offspring. Anakin going to Yoda for council and not providing any other specifics shows that the death he envisions is beyond his control. A more 'Kumbaya/understanding' approach would have not only just led to another impasse, but would've been an inconsistency in character and story.

If instead he had, say, a dream about Obi-Wan being killed by General Grievous on Utapau, Yoda's answer would've been the same. To be careful since his dream might be based in personal fear of loss. And Anakin's reaction would've been the same, he would've snuck off to Utapau to try to help Obi-Wan. (Even though he didn't need it). But the proper reaction would've been to be calm & at peace, to let go of the fear, then search for the vision again. Once the fear was gone, the vision of Kenobi's death would vanish, since it was all only based in personal fear.
Now, if he'd had a vision of Obi-Wan being fired upon by his troops, eliminated the fear of losing Obi-Wan, and the vision persisted, then appropriate action would be taken. Because it was based in reality, not fear.

As it is, he has a dream of Padmé helplessly dying in childbirth. Anakin tells Yoda everything that he's going to tell him. Given what Anakin does and does not divulge, the advice is not what Anakin wanted, but it's still exactly what he needed to hear. Because...

Partly, when looking at this in it's full dimensionality, the thing that needs to be emphasized here is that he did it for the power to save his wife from a fate he saw in his dreams which he had because of his fear of change & losing her.

So what's the root problem here? Anakin's fear, which can lead to dangerous decisions. So what is the best advice in this specific situation? Conquer the fear.
Get rid of the fear, get rid of the problem.

The Jedi way isn't why Anakin turned. In this particular situation it actually gave him what he needed, but didn't give him what he wanted. So he chose to seek out someone who would.

However, the Jedi way did force Anakin to keep his marriage a secret. Is forbidden marriage something that needs to change? Possibly. In Anakin's case though the dilemma is about his deep seeded fear. Even his marriage, forbidden or not, did not cause him to turn.
Yoda's advice was not "do nothing, let them die". It was let go of your fear of loss, and also know that life still goes on if someone does happen to unfortunately die - despite any appropriate efforts to prevent it. If he had overcome his fear, If he had followed Yoda's advice, he wouldn't have gotten sucked into the dark side, which wouldn't have pulled him & Padmé apart. The only thing Anakin's family needed saving from in this case was Anakin himself. These are basically the messages he was supposed to learn from his dream. But he only looked at the surface level and jumped to a different conclusion, based on previous experience.




Samuel Vimes, Yes, you're right about mourning being a healthy process. However these are Jedi, who believe in the Force. The question comes down to; would they be mourning the dead for the dead person's sake or for their own sake? If it's for the dead person's sake, what's to mourn when they have peace knowing they're now one with the Force? If it's for their own sake, that's reluctance to let go of a personal attachment, which leads to the shadow of greed. Not ok for Jedi. Unlike us, they spend their entire lives fostering these viewpoints.

A Jedi's life is not an easy one, it requires the most serious mind. Being distracted by the loss of an attachment is one of many things that can endanger a Jedi, their mission and/or worse. We also know this is not easily accomplished, Yoda tells Anakin to train himself to let go of that which he fears to lose. (Not to bury/ignore his feelings). Yoda urged him to conquer the fear and focus on the more peaceful mindset in concordance with the Force.
Fear bad, peace good. As cold as it might sound to a regular person, this would have solved Anakin's problem. But instead of training himself to be be calm and at peace, he chose the quick and easy path of fear-based decision making to solve his problems his own way now.

Obi-Wan cried with grief as Qui-Gon died, but later we see him and the Jedi at Qui-Gon's funeral, where they are paying respects to him and his life. Yet, they are emotionally calm, moving on to fully address the issues and problems at hand with all of their faculties.
Also, when Obi-Wan senses the deaths from the destruction of Alderaan, he remains emotionally calm and urges Luke to continue with his exercises. If he had gone into mourning, he wouldn't have been collected enough to help figure out what was going on when they exited hyperspace or do what he had to do on the Death Star. Yeah, it's a bit extreme, and not always recommended for regular people, but for the Jedi, it's what they did. Is it something that needs to change? Maybe?

Jedi's don't form attachments for this very reason. It's for the benefit of the Jedi and ultimately the people of the galaxy they protect. A distracted Jedi is an ineffective and/or dangerous Jedi. And a Jedi's closest thing to family is the other Jedi, and they know that a Jedi's life is dedicated to service as a guardian of peace and justice which means regularly putting themselves in dangerous situations that regular people cannot, much like a force-sensitive police officer, or soldier. They always know that at any given time, a fellow Jedi could die & become one with the Force. As foreign as it sounds to us, mourning need not be an issue for them.

Yes, the Jedi lacked a certain area of emotional intelligence that Anakin needed, due to their differences in upbringing. That is the story.
The Jedi way worked for the most part for them, but Anakin had one foot in the Jedi world and the other in that of a regular people. All of this is why Yoda did not want to him trained to begin with. Yes, Yoda comes off 'cold' to Anakin, that is why he seeks something that better suits his needs. But as we see, in this particular situation, it was the advice he needed.
After Qui-Gon's death I bet Ani mourned him and was advised not to etc., which yes, would seem cold from his point of view. And yes, burying his feelings about missing his mother festered into negative things - that's the story and the dynamic between Anakin and the Jedi.
But I would also wager he was told to train himself let go of his attachment to his mother, not to bury his feelings. If he just buried, that was his interpretation/choice/nature.

Yoda does tell him that visions require caution and not to let fear get involved. Anakin stating "I won't let these visions come true" makes the issue of the future being in motion beside the point. Anakin's mind is made up. This is also why bringing up his mother would not contribute to the conversation. The bottom line is that Ani needs to eliminate his fears here. Yes, his mother was really in pain and he defied orders to go to her once he sensed that. But in Padmé's case she is in perfect health. This is all in Anakin's mind. Padmé isn't the issue here, Anakin is. And Yoda rightly senses this.
Trying to talk with him about his experience & feelings in AotC in this moment would've just led to an impasse and come back to the root problem of fear and Yoda would've just ended up saying the exact thing he does say.

And Jedi don't rely on "cold logic 100% of the time". They rely on the Force. A robot cannot use the Force. Obi-Wan told Luke that his emotions serve him well, but they can be used serve the Emperor. And they almost were...

Maybe, but if they have fear of losing their attachments, bad things will happen, as Anakin's fall shows us. Fear is the issue here.

Not out of fear; out of caution, duty and communion with the Force.

Of course Yoda doesn't say any of these things at all. Some people are throwing this into the story, but it's just not there when looked at in the proper context. He says fear of loss is a path to the dark side, attachments lead to jealousy which is a shadow of greed, and to be cautious. Protecting others is their duty. Everyone knows the Jedi care about life. But if death can't be helped, remembering fallen loved ones is ok. Letting emotions get to the point of clouding one's judgement is ill-advised.

Because that was his master's job as he was training him. As a Knight, Anakin should know this. They are in the middle of a treacherous war with trillions of lives at stake, this is not a time to hold hands and sing Kumbaya in a council meeting. Besides, Obi-Wan does still advise him accordingly afterwards. Also, this illustrates the tension between Mace & Anakin.

As Darkspine said, because he's the only one close enough. Obi-Wan also assures Yoda & Mace that Anakin has never let him down. He also tried to level with Anakin about Palpatine, but unlike us, they don't know he's the Sith Lord. Sidious was one step ahead of everybody and sinks his hooks into Anakin.



Conclusion: Did Anakin need a more understanding approach? Well, Obi-Wan does say that he failed him. How appropriate would holding his hand through everything really have been, though? Especially after he's become a Knight. Is there room for any of that in the Jedi Order?

The story is about Anakin being both a regular person and a Jedi, and the tensions that arises between him and the Order because of this. The dynamics were deftly crafted and woven together in a rewarding way. And though pondering what it is to be human is also a goal of these films, I feel to misconstrue the specific contexts is unfortunate.

 

I don't think Obi Wan admitted failure at "holding Anakin's hand" . Probably a collective failure to face reality and be pragmatic instead of being wholly dogmatic.

 

Nor do I. But the impression I get from some of the comments on here is that is what they wanted the Jedi to do.

 

I don't get that impression from anyone's comments but it is nevertheless a common response from anyone that rankles at the suggestion of the council and Obi-Wan's doomed handling of the mounting problems to be inadequate or non-existent.

 

Agreed. As someone who struggles daily to apply her spiritual practice despite all her understanding as whole, I don't believe Anakin choice is a conscious one..doing so would require him to confront himself in a lot different levels that he may not even venture or understand...The Micro Series talked about facing the mirror...Anakin was never given the chance to do that..not for himself or by others..and with that lack of self awareness an advise like Yoda's is not completely understood.

To me, its not so much about holding his hand, but the Jedi meeting Anakin in the middle..adapt to him as much as him to them. One of numbered things that TCW did in season 2, was to show how his fellow Knights acknowledged Anakin's potential despite being unorthodox ...its sad that Anakin was fixed on the Council's approval. Also, if people talk about Anakin like a "Joe" is because he is...deeply human and that's something that many in the Council and IRL don't seem to get.

 

Right, that's what I say too. He was a "Joe" that also made a promise to live by the Jedi code. Problem is he wanted to be both, if you will. But, in the PT era standards at least, one must choose only one.

I did slip into hyperbole (which tends to rub off on you around here ) when I said "hold his hand". Meet him in the middle is much better. But my question still stands. Was there room for that in the Jedi Order? Can one be a Jedi and a Joe?

And I love that you brought up "facing the mirror" from the microseries, (the Anakin stuff in that series is highly underrated). I think his dream was his mirror, so to speak - his Dagobah cave. It showed him his deepest fear, and also the end result of what acting on his uncontrolled emotions and fears can lead to. Being possessive of his attachments and also having a strong connection to the Force puts him on a slippery slope, and the dream was meant to serve as a warning. This was his test, and his fork in the road. Follow the path of fear, or of mastery. The life of attachment or non-attachment. We see however that he could not let go of his attachments, which as humans we can sympathize with to a degree.

And I tend to think he did face a mirror on Nelvaan. The cave paintings showed him how he is using his powers for good intentions but with uncontrolled passions which can lead to evil. Also, the Nelvaanian warriors gave him a glimpse of his future with their sons accepting them for who they are even after what they've become - missing hand and all.



Martoto77, I'm just now seeing this

And I have to say it's a good point. The only thing; I wouldn't say the Jedi are afraid of injustice and conflict. That's not their motivation for being guardians. Nor would they be effective if it were. Hubris/arrogance sure, but I don't know about fear.

Back to the topic (well one of the two going on), perhaps when it comes to non-mourning and letting go of attachment, they may have been suppressing a natural part of their humanity. But as unnatural as this might appear, as space monk-ninjas it's always worked for them, it was a sacrifice they made to serve the galaxy.

It's when Anakin came into the equation; this exposed the inadequacy within their Way in dealing with a late-starter, which Sidious could provide an alternative to. Their atrophy from this perspective was a weakness, the chink in their armor, which Sidious could exploit.
Not too unlike the exhaust port on the Death Star*. Or how the existence of Kamino was hidden until things fell into place. It's the problem that wasn't a problem until it was discovered and exposed in a different context. The problem that was unbeknownst to the owner due to their arrogance and/or complacency.

Anakin's Achilles heel as well as the Jedi's were both rooted in attachment. He couldn't let go of his and the Jedi weren't adequately equipped to help him to. (not that it was ultimately their job, but there was a disconnect. "He never listens, he doesn't understand!").
Out of necessity, the Jedi tamed & quieted the part of their humanity that ended up being what Anakin needed help with the most. I think that might be the point all, or most, of us here are getting at simultaneously but from different angles.
Yes, there was a lack of understanding, but was either party completely at fault?

Now with Anakin, as someone with very human traits and a very powerful connection to the Force, there's a somewhat neutral agent in between the Sith and the Jedi that can be used by one to bring the other down, but it's the neutral agent's choice. The only difference is Sidious presented it as the choice to save his attachment.

Anakin needed to recognize and admit his problem. See it, expose it, and master it. Or it would be his downfall. He was carrying so many secrets, and there was nobody he could tell all of them to. And like he said in AotC, that is destructive. He needed to find balance in himself before he could bring balance to the Force.

It's tragic but also sort of beautifully poetic how Sidious was able to seduce Anakin by using the biggest strengths & weaknesses of his humanity to betray and help bring down the Jedi by providing an alternative to their simultaneous strength & weakness; the one part of their humanity they had subdued in order to serve as guardians. And also in how these aspects of humanity are the same things which led to Palpatine's destruction.

As Samuel V pointed out, suppression might work for awhile, but eventually the thing suppressed comes back. Be it grief or even love and compassion: the good Padmé & Luke saw remaining in Anakin.

This conversation between Yoda & Anakin in RotS is one of my favorites scenes the saga. It not only illustrates the fundamental dynamic between the two, but everything is further enhanced by the striations of black & white along the backdrop. The light, the dark. The strengths, the weaknesses. The eyes, the shadows. The things said, the things unsaid. Suppressed, unexposed, conflicted. Exposed, released, at peace.



*(which is interesting because I kind of saw Galen Erso as a surrogate Anakin/Vader and Jyn as Luke/Leia. Galen left his child and gave his service to the Empire, but all the while ultimately provided the means with which to bring it down via his child).

 

What I think some of the PT Jedi lacked is empathy/sympathy, people skills and also, some teaching skills.

To start with the last, Anakin has been a Jedi for over ten years and yet they don't pick up on him not learning to let go of his attachments?
Obi-Wan has some concerns but nothing major.
He isn't learning their lessons and after ten years of this, you should take a closer look at this.

Empathy/sympathy, this I think is most evident with Anakin's mother and what the Jedi do or rather don't do.
They see that he misses her but they seem to not acknowledge that his feelings are totally normal for a boy his age.
Qui-Gon had sympathy and empathy and so he tried to free Shmi. Both as thanks to her for helping them but also realizing that it would put Anakin's mind at ease.
The other Jedi don't seem to realize this, or they don't care.
Or they are just too fixated on their rules and dogma to consider the person in front of them.

Lastly, people skills.
As Kenneth Morgan, said, the Jedi did not handle the Anakin being put on the council thing all that smoothly.
Sure, they likely felt that Anakin was not ready to be a Master and his tantrum showed that they were right.
But what happens is that Palpatine interferes in Jedi affairs and they don't like it.
But they take that dislike out on Anakin.
He didn't ask for this, Palpatine did this. But the Jedi don't file a protest, they make Anakin pay for it.

They rather humiliate him in front of the whole council by saying that he can sit there but he is not a Master.
Saying that he is only there because some else pulled some strings, not his own merits.
Sure, ideally a Jedi should not have an ego to bruise but this was not handled that well.
As was said, tell Anakin privately, not in front of the whole council and letting him make an ass of himself.
Esp when they need Anakin to do something very important.
And they also seemed not to realize that Anakin was close to Palpatine, saw him as a friend and mentor and would naturally react when told to spy on his old friend.

@Subtext Mining

But, like you said, Obi-Wan showed grief and anger at Qui-Gons death, whcih shows he did have feelings for him.
And the Jedi have a funeral for him later. And that seemed a somber affair, I didn't see much "rejoicing" there.

Why have a funeral, Qui-Gon is dead, so he won't care.
For the others to say goodbye and pay their last respects?
That sure sounds like mourning and grieving, letting go and saying farewell.
If the Jedi had zero attachments or feelings for Qui-Gon, why bother with a funeral?
Qui-Gon is dead and they have no feelings for his death other than "He is dead, move on."
So a funeral is not needed, the body is just an empty shell and should just be disposed off.

No, I think the Jedi DO have some feelings for others and they have a funeral to say goodbye, to let go of their feelings for that person.
They grieve, not for very long and not very openly, but they do show that this person mattered to them.
Which is another reason why I find Yoda's advice poor, the other Jedi don't even follow it.

So again, not grieving or mourning would likely work against trying to let go.
You have feelings for someone, you let them out, let them pass through you and then let them go.
Refusing to deal with those emotions and and pretending that they don't exist, that is asking for more trouble.

If the Jedi should have zero personal attachments then it would be like how regular people are "attached" to socks and underwear.
Most normal people don't hold funerals when they toss away worn out socks or gets very emotional when they forget a pair of underwear somewhere.
So should Jedi be this detached from people?

But this makes my suggestion that a robot with zero emotions and that realies on cold logic 100% of the time, that this would be the perfect Jedi.
No emotions ever getting in the way, mourning is never an issue, nor past loyalty, nor any hesitation due to feelings.

I know that robots can't use the Force but what you say about a Jedi not having any attachments or not letting any emotions distract them. Then IF a robot could use the Force and knew what the Force wanted all the time, it would be the perfect Jedi. It can't get upset, sad, angry, afraid, distracted or anything.

And I think Obi-Wan's comment to Luke illustrates a difference between how the Jedi were when the OT was made and how they were changed with the PT.
Yoda and Obi-Wan don't scold Luke for having feelings for his friends, they just warn him that acting on them recklessly could be dangerous.
And they handled Luke quite different from how they handled Anakin. There is more warmth, more care, more sympathy.

I agree that Anakin's situation was different from other Jedi and the Jedi were not well equipped to deal with him.
So I think there is some blame to go around. Anakin is responsible for his own actions and he carries most of the blame.
But I think the jedi didn't always help the situation and their methods were ill-suited for someone like Anakin.

Where I disagree is that it "worked" for the Jedi.
I think the story is that this extreme severing of emotions and attachments made the Jedi blind to the Sith and the overall situation in the republic.
They didn't know what was going on and relied on the Force telling them what to do and when that failed, they had nothing to fall back on.
This made the Jedi order rigid, inflexible and unable to change to face a new threat.

Consider, if every last Jedi is raised in the order from almost since birth, then new ideas are unlikely to come in.
Everyone is raised according to a set ideal and pattern and in a controlled environment. So a lot of variation of ideas or new thinking is not likely to occur.

From what I've read, these severe rules about no children, family or such things, they seemed a "new" thing.
In the past, Jedi were allowed to marry, have children etc. And while it did lead to more Jedi turning to the dark side, the majority could handle it.
But the risk, even if small, was deemed unacceptable and so harsher rules were put in place.

And these rules hinges on parents being willing to give up their children to the Jedi.
Suppose the Jedi found that not a single parent is willing to give up their child and never see them again.
Then they would not get any new recruits. What then?
Wait until the person is old enough to make their own choice?
Or have children of their own to train from birth?

This system "worked" only because the republic allowed this and that there were enough parents who were willing to give up their children.
Unless the parents did not have a choice in the matter.
So the Jedi had to be a part of the system, to work as part of the senate/republic.
Which created problems later on.

In closing, you make some good points and Anakin is very much responsible for his actions.
I just feel that the Jedi are not blameless in this.

And as a member of the audience, having characters that are supposed to be reserved or in-control of their emotions etc.
The risk is that unless you have good actors, the characters can come across as cold, unfeeling or wooden.
Take the Vulcans in Star Trek. They are not without emotions, they have strong emotions. They just temper them with logic and tru to control them.
Some actors, like Nimoy and Lenard were good at playing characters that appeared reserved but still showed that they had emotions.
Less good actors made the Vulcans come across as devoid of feelings, stiff, wooden or totally uncaring.
To me, this happened with some of the PT Jedi. They came across as cold and unfeeling and as a result, I didn't care about them.
And then their deaths didn't have much of an impact on me.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Even on Mortis, when Anakin saw what he was going to do and become, when the Son showed him his future, he didn't have a change of heart. Instead of turning away from it, he ran toward it by embracing the notion that the only way to stop it from happening...was to become the monster of his vision. He believed that fighting fire with fire was the only way to stop the dark future. He failed to understand the lesson of facing the mirror was. Luke was able to get it which is why he rejects the dark side and stays with the light. You can teach, but one must be willing to learn from those teachings and that is why Obi-wan said that he failed Anakin. He failed in making him understand the dangers of the dark side and he failed in helping him to deal with his attachments.

 

They immediately understood his situation, that's why they felt the Jedi way wasn't for him. They explained to him what it takes, specifically for his case that fear of loss is dangerous. And ultimately, for both his benefit and theirs, they decided he was too old to start learning their ways - but it was Qui-Gon who insisted. Eventually he was allowed, yet Yoda still stressed the grave danger he sensed in his training.

Who was right about Anakin becoming a Jedi, Qui-Gon or Yoda? That's the conundrum.

Yes, the contrast between Qui-Gon and the rest of the Jedi is obvious and intentional. Would things have been different if he hadn't died? We'll never know, and it's important to remember Anakin was still responsible for his own choices, as has been pointed out.

It could be possible Anakin may never have been able to learn to let go of the attachments he fears to lose, but he knows it's what is expected of him and it seems the Jedi assume he is trying which shows they're giving him the benefit of the doubt. Mixed with, yes, they also don't quite possess the means to completely handle such an unusual case.

I would say Anakin humiliated himself in front of the Council with his outburst. Why not make the situation clear with the entire Council while in session so that everyone is fully informed?

I'm not seeing the Council taking their frustrations with the Chancellor's interfering out on Anakin. They do take advantage of the appointment and of Anakin's closeness to him by using it as an opportunity for spying. But I certainly don't see any passive-aggresive, belittling or cynical behavior on their part towards Anakin.

Privatley assigning Anakin to spy on Palpatine off the record was arguably out of line, yet this is war. Is that a flimsy excuse? Well, trillions of lives are at stake, some crucial intel could be gained from this. It's a dilemma, which the prequels are wrought with. Even Kenobi felt uncomfortable about it.

And Kenobi did realize Anakin was close with Palpatine, that's why he told him to be cautious and to use his feelings regarding the situation because something was out of place.

All the Council did was expect Anakin to be professional about his duties. But yes, they were crossing lines that he, as someone with deep connections to others and a desire to be a Master, did not like. It's an intentionally interwoven dramatic thread. To Anakin it may have felt disrespectful, and they may not have been meeting him in the middle, but from the Jedi pov it was business, and they have their justifications. Were they lacking in 'regular people' skills? A little. That's part of the story. Just as much as Anakin not being inclined to completely commit to the Jedi way.

Right, I think everyone would agree Jedi have feelings and understand the credit they do them. And of course they pay respects to those who have fallen and honor their life, yet with the solace and peace of mind that they are now one with the Force, while healthily letting them go, as it appears to me.

Perhaps the semantics on grieving/mourning is the issue here. The dictionary defines grief as a deep sorrow or distress. And mourning as feelings of regret, sadness and/or deep sorrow. Though Anakin seems to be, the Jedi at Qui-Gon's funeral don't appear to be doing these things, while they are paying their respects, saying goodbye to their friendship with him and letting him pass on to the Force in peace & honor. They're not distracted with the sorrow of loss to the point of not being able to tackle the current issues at hand. Same with what I said about Obi-Wan when Alderaan was destroyed. Luke on the other hand was too preoccupied with Yoda's death to help R2 fix up the X-Wing, what if he had to make a quick getaway? What if lives were at stake? I think one (a Jedi), with training, can pay respects without having to also grieve in the dictionary sense.

I feel Yoda makes a distinction between mourning as in letting go, and emphasizing mourning as in brooding upon missing the person which is an attachment clung on to. Or as you say, they grieve, not for very long and not very openly, but they do show that this person mattered to them. I feel this is what Yoda was getting at with Anakin, reminding him of the state the Jedi were in at Qui-Gon's funeral, if someone were to pass without the help of normal intervention-
In TPM, when Anakin said he misses his mother, Yoda asked if he was afraid to lose her. Anakin of course responds by asking, "What's that got to do with anything?" and course Yoda answers with, "Everything..."

I don't think Yoda is being hypocritical with what he says to Anakin. They cared about Qui-Gon but were in control of their emotions and propensity to attachments. He was stating the goal post set out for a Jedi who expects to master his/her calling. Knowing what they know about him, I think Yoda was trying, in the best Jedi way he could, to take a closer look with Anakin - but by emphasizing the extremes. Is it difficult for many Jedi to reach this point? Yes. As we see a number of times in TCW, it's a challenging process, especially for the younger ones, but ultimately a target none the less.

I'd say the Jedi mostly don't have attachments TO mourn (dictionary), they have brothers & sisters in the Force to honor and live for. It's odd to us, but it's their way. If one feels they were being too cold for Ani or not meeting him in the middle, that's a fair assessment and it illustrates the disconnect between the Jedi and Anakin: the Jedi tried, but, yes, were not set up for him and so naturally he was not satisfied with them.

Now this clip works well in this discussion because it tackles both the issue of grieving/mouring but also the ethical dilemma of military vs. Jedi vs. politics. Again, emphasizing the operatic quandaries upon which this era is intentionally built.

Also notice Anakin is handling the deaths of these Jedi relatively well. They were not his close personal attachments.

And during the 2nd Battle of Geonosis, Luminara tells Anakin that if her Padawan's time has come (which was a situation beyond her control, mind you), she would mourn her, but also celebrate her memory. And even this was not acceptable for Anakin. Unlike Luminara, he was not prepared to let his student go. He insisted they continue searching and eventually did find Ahsoka & Barriss - thanks to Ahsoka's ingenuity which she learned from Anakin.
So, who was right, Luminara or Anakin? Well, they both were from their individual points of view. That's the dilemma. What if Ahsoka hadn't found a way to contact them?
Perhaps Luminara may have learned something that day, but it's clear Anakin did not. Should he have? As someone who promised to live by the Jedi code, technically yes, but that's Anakin.


Also, while on TCW, observe the difference between Obi-Wan's reaction to the killings of Qui-Gon and Satine. He has come a long way in taming his emotions and attachments.

And the Jedi don't scold Anakin for having feelings for his friends, they likewise also just warm him that acting recklessly on them could be dangerous. I'd also put forth that there is not more warmth & sympathy with Luke. We see a great moment of Yoda being warm with the younglings, but you have to basically be a drill sergeant when training & instructing Jedi to be Masters, it's not something to be trifled with:

Yoda insisted that Luke do or do not, there is no try. Luke said he's not afraid, Yoda tells him unsympathetically that he will be. Luke has a terrifying & confusing experience in the cave, Yoda just goes "hrmpf." Yoda also reminds him of his failure in the cave. Luke says he can't believe it and Yoda replies "That is why you fail." And mostly, they told him it was better to let his friends die if he honored what they fought for than risk becoming an agent of evil, and that they won't be there to help him if he decides to go. Who was right, Luke or Ben & Yoda? This is GL introducing difficult dilemmas into the SW universe.

They also kept from him the fact that Vader was his father. And when Luke asked Yoda he ignored the question and rolled over. Luke had to insist on being told, and Yoda only answered because he figured Vader must've told him and the Nexu was out of the bag. Luke exclaimed "Unfortunate that I know the truth?!" But Yoda scolds Luke, rightly explaining that it was unfortunate because he rushed off recklessly and was not ready for the burden - to which Luke acknowledges and apologizes. The notable differences are between Anakin & Luke, not the Jedi in the OT & the PT.

I feel they treat Luke & Anakin equally, if anything they may be gentler with Anakin, just perhaps more sure of themselves. Remember, it was with Luke that Obi-Wan advised burying his feelings, Anakin was never told that. But in the end it was for the same purpose, because unbridled they can be used to serve a dark sider's manipulations. I don't see how Obi-Wan's warning about feelings in RotJ was better or worse than anything the Jedi said to Anakin.

From Luke's pov, not being told that Vader was his father was disrespectful, but from the Jedi's it was necessary. Just as from Anakin's pov, some of the things the Jedi did were disrespectful to him, but for them it was necessary and something a life-long Jedi or Master should try to take with more poise and grace. Which he actually did eventually - he did his job and told Mace what he found out, even against his own conflicted feelings.

When Luke says "Then I am a Jedi", Yoda laughs and insists he do something he doesn't want to, confront Vader, his father. To which Obi-Wan laments "Then the Emperor has already won." No 'I know it's hard, so let's come up with something easier for you." Luke, as a non-traditional Jedi, had to reconcile things out on his own, just like Anakin, but in different scenarios. One failed as a young man, the other succeeded. And it was Luke's success that aided in Anakin's ultimate success.

Who was right, who was wrong, the Jedi, Anakin, Luke? I believe most of the answers to that in the PT are relative. It was 'right' for the Jedi as they were a monastic order, they made certain sacrifices out of necessity in their service to the galaxy. On the other side of the coin, Anakin did what the thought was right for him. Luke as well. Qui-Gon, too. But as Force users they walked a slippery slope.
Should a Jedi stick with the instructions they're given, or be more flexible? These are the intriguing, difficult questions Lucas asks.

By it "working" for the Jedi, I mean that it was the sacrifice they made to serve the galaxy and it worked for roughly a millennia. Yet it was the potential "problem" that lay dormant until the right conditions came along to exploit it. Until the Sith fully came back, it was the system that maintained peace & justice and kept Jedi from slipping to the dark side. They meant well, and they did their job well, but the Sith slipped in through their blindspot.
The deleted Kamino and the goings on there perhaps serves as an allegory to this. The arrogance, the misjudgment, the dark shroud.

Right. Well... mostly, I'd say. I think it might be somewhat more layered with variables. Would it be the tempering of emotions & attachments that made them blind to the Sith and their machinations?
That is what Sidious saw in them as the way to sway Anakin.
Sidious says it was the Jedi's arrogance that blinds them, and even the Jedi acknowledge the growing problem. They were too sure that they had the galaxy in a state of relative stability, while the dark side crept in. Too reliant on tradition, and perhaps not enough on intuition.
They were caught off guard, and those were some of their hinderances, but their biggest hurdle here, it seems, was they didn't suspect something as sinister & cunning as the Chancellor being a Sith lord and creating the war so he could build an imperial army and destroy the Jedi. And by deploying the Clone army on Geonosis the wheels had been set in motion and they were along for the ride, to a fair extent.

Yes, the Jedi forgot a little humility, but most of all I think the thing they forgot the most was the importance of deep intimate connection with others on a human level. Because that is what life is all about. It brings the vitality to life that enriches everything else.
I suppose the question we're asking here is, did the impairing of their connection to others contribute to their impairment in using the Force?

Right. Or... very close again, and it also raises more questions. Kenobi told Anakin to use his feelings to sense something is out of place. Perhaps if they hadn't become complacent they could've sensed a clearer picture of the situation to some degree. I don't know.
I mean, the younglings and Dex show us that there were other kinds of wisdom they had 'overlooked', but what else specifically could they have fallen back on to sense what was going on in this particular situation? What change did they need to make to face this threat? Sidious' plans were, well... insidious. It was brilliant and the Jedi were caught unaware until it was too late. Their connection to the Force was indeed diminished, but what was the root cause of that? Perhaps a little of the above.

Fascinating how the one unnatural part of their way was the yin in their yang, if you will. The Sith were all unnatural, except they are good at appearing to provide the one thing the Jedi can't - the one thing that people here wanted them to: an understanding of Anakin's needs on his level.

Like the Eternals in Zardoz, they achieved a sense of greatness, but at what detriment to their humanity?

It was their blindspot or disconnect. Most of the Council didn't see assigning Anakin to spy on a mentor & a friend as a moral problem, or at least not as big of a one to pass up the opportunity to carry out the necessary task. It was a duty that needed done during a time of war. For the Jedi, acceptable. For Anakin, not. No intended disrespect, just differences of perspective. If they were meeting Luke in the middle a bit more, it's likely because they finally learned their lessons from Anakin that people here wanted them to.

Should the Jedi way have been more conducive to people like Anakin? I don't know, would they have been disciplined enough to accomplish what was required of them if they lived like average people with attachments & fears and distracted by deep emotions? Anakin pulled it off for awhile, but eventually it all caught up with him. The tragic beautiful irony of the story is that the little snip the Jedi quelled in their humanity out of duty is what Anakin needed continued nurturing in, and it's alternative is what Sidious was able to fabricate, with which to lure Anakin.

Fair enough. I know you're being hypothetical, but I'll see your point and raise you. While we can all agree that the Jedi aren't inhuman, there does seem to be something about the nature of their way that can appear a bit machine-like to outsiders, if you will. There's a sequence in AotC that gets a lot of flack but I feel it may be of some significance in this regard: C-3P0's scenes on Geonosis. And it all begins when he claims that R2 has a great deal to learn about human behavior.*
And what he says as he enters the droid factory is very on point:

"Machines making machines! How perverse."

Cryogenic & I have talked previously about how this could be seen as a commentary on the Jedi bringing up each subsequent generation of more Jedi.
And once 3P0's head is put onto a battle droid body and he is marched off to war, we see him imbued with a certain curious slice of humanity, rendering him at his most human; as demonstrated in the slang colloquialisms he speaks. Things presumably only a human mind could fully comprehend the irony & humor in, such as:
"Die Jedi dogs!" (so I slaughtered them like animals)
"This is such a drag."
"I'm quite beside myself."

These terms are subtle puns that a machine shouldn't completely understand on the same level humans do, and would only use in imitation when talking with a human. And most notably, something which I don't think we see AIs do in GL's other SW films. Also interesting that his statements denote hate, anger and fear respectively. Even more interestingly, he even declares his experience in the factory as "a nightmare" (Jedi don't have nightmares).

*Which is noteworthy because in the other films he is often lamenting on how he doesn't understand human behavior.


3P0 is Anakin's creation. He has his flourish of humanity in the moments following Anakin & Padmé reciprocating their love for each other. Anakin's first intimate connection with another since leaving his mother. The thing he has longed for the most. When he was finally able to reconnect fully with his humanity.

There is definitely some tasty foreshadowing in these scenes on Geonosis. Such as Anakin's sign of things to come. I figure it's not a stretch to consider Threepio's very human abstract comments as something with some sort of subtextual significance.

Anecdotally, Lucas says in the THX 1138 commentary that the droid repeatedly bouncing into the wall, a scene which he noticed fell flat with audiences, typifies the dysfunction of the entire society of the film. "The whole society is that droid..."
And of SRT, "The characters that are the most human are the ones that are the least human."

I would add the metaphor of Threepio being thrust into the war as an unwilling soldier paralleling Anakin, the Jedi and the entire galaxy being thrust into the war; victims of the war machine, unwittingly maneuvered into it by the 'machinations' of Sidious & Dooku.
They've been grafted into the war machine.
(Attack shares the same etymological root with attach/graft, and clone shares it's root with branch/twig)
They've been grated into the rotting tree that is the Republic, and now they're going to fall with it.

Love. Death (Shmi's most of all). War. Compassion. The hallmarks of human history. All masterfully interwoven into the heart of AotC, poisoned by the treachery of the tyrannical mastermind who took advantage of the corruption around him.

The Jedi through their removal of the need for grief, and by becoming generals in a war after years of being keepers of the peace perhaps made themselves a little machine-like. Which perhaps also plays out nicely in their adversary, the caricature that is one General Grievous, who himself... is part creature, part machine. Grievous and grief of course also sharing the same etymological root.

The Jedi aren't inhuman, they just temper their attachments & emotions in order to remain in complete control and fulfill their duties. Anakin wanted all of it, which is understandable enough. But the Jedi way was not set up to be conducive to that. In trying to maintain the part of his humanity, out of fear, that the Jedi tamed within themselves, he went down the wrong path - losing that which he was trying to save and destroying that which he meant to maintain. And in doing so became more machine than man.

Anakin: the human who made the machine, then the human made into a Jedi, then the man made into machine. One could say Vader stands as a manifestation of, or more specifically, a symbol of the flaw of the Jedi.

Lucas explores many a profound theme in his films; man vs. machine, man and machine, man or machine, average man vs. The Man being just a few.

Most of all, after saying all this, I think this idea is perfectly summed up in the line "Well, if droids could think there'd be none of us here would there?" But ironcially, what he should've said was "feel".
(And contrasted wonderfully in Obi-Wan's instructions to Anakin to "Think", and Qiu-Gon's "Feel, don't think").

I don't see the demeanor or acting approach in any of the Jedi in the PT that different from that of A. Guinness or F. Oz in the OT. Mace is a bit extreme, but with his role in the galaxy he has to be a bit of a hard ass. I imagine that is why Lucas cast him. If they're a little stiff, it's intentional, and I thought it was done to great effect.

And the impacts of their deaths are to be felt through the role they played in the galaxy; the loss of that guardianship; that devotion to the Force; the sacrifice they made through their noble service all for naught, all gone; the tragedy of their plight due to the very few yet very big mistakes they made; they tried to do their best but failed due to the cunning of the Sith - not so much because we were supposed to become attached to them as ancillary characters.
The sudden heart ache paralyzing Yoda to his core explains it better than I can. And all of this is expressed divinely through John Williams' score as well as Padmé's tears of confusion and distress. If one can't feel that, perhaps they may be the ones lacking a little emotion?
Heck, my heart breaks every time that kid gets shot down by Clones as he tries to make a break for Bail's speeder, and we don't know him at all. The emotion is also heightened by Bail screaming "No!" Which, if you've ever seen a living thing suddenly get killed, it's an instinctual response. One I've experienced.

Perhaps the Jedi losing touch with an area of their emotions could be seen as a commentary on our society. Where we've become so cynical and desensitized that we can't feel the impact and weight of a film so deeply human at it's core, that we are the machines; cogs in a system of soulless consumerism, disposable entertainment, instant gratification...

All in all, I think one of the ultimate questions posed by the GL 6 (and going forward, in whichever direction a writer chooses), as well as us here, is; should galactic guardians of peace & justice also have attachments? I guess my answer is... it depends. It might be possible as long as they don't have fear of losing them. Which as we saw with the Skywalkers, is also not an easy thing.

 

If you don't fear to lose them, then it's not attachment.

 

Can’t even type a direct response to @Subtext Mining (I’m on the TFN mobile version). But I can say that his post was right on target with the Jedi Vs Anakin’s ordeals.

There is a sense of correctness of the two forces(Anakin and the jedi) when it comes to the universal morality. The difference here is context and the context is Anakin himself. An outlier or “The Phantom” of the council. The fact of the matter is, the Jedi were right at the end of the day. They might have had various hiccups in their way of teaching and expression for but it’s not quite a surprise Anakin has fallouts to such an extereme manner in the order. They warned Anakin and Qui-Gon directly that it was a foolish decision. What did it cost? Everything. For just breaking one of the rules out of pity for their fallen Jedi brother, they all perished.

A beautiful and ironic tragedy don’t you think? It took one man to make an entire castle crumble into a void.

 

Someone above mentioned anakin' and yoda's talk as a favorite scene. I couldn't agree more as it encapsulated anakin' conflict perfectly. Shadow of greed...

That said, anakin was petulant and found it difficult to command respect when acting that way. But at the same time the Jedi and Palpatine did not respect him as an individual and his autonomy. He was a means to an end, and his anger unfortunately was not entirely misplaced.

 

When did the Jedi not respect him or his autonomy?

 

Stigmatising a young child for being concerned, internally, for his mother and equating it with evil was not a good way to establish trust and respect. If Anakin had already erred in that context, and by his actions, not with his innermost feelings, then it might have made sense for the council to dump this admonishment on his little head.

As it is, the first encounter with the council is an immediate lesson in not trusting one's feelings and having the concerns and dogma of a religious cult replace them.

Qui Gon immediately recognises Anakin's concern for others above himself. And, naturally, Anakin's thoughts are with her on his first parting from his mother. He's immediately told that his concerns are "selfish". They virtually gaslight the boy.

 

No, Anakin asked a question which was answered accordingly in a very wise way by Yoda. Perhaps a rewatch is in order so that what actually happened (as opposed to what you think happened) can be discussed.

 

Heck. My favorite "not really a pet, but a pet" animal appears to have been attacked and died shortly thereafter. I knew I couldn't turn back time. It didn't stop me from feeling grief. And it definitely didn't stop me from taking steps so it has less of a chance of happening again. One would say it drove me to prevent another unnatural death. And those aren't even people or family.

 

^ Well yes, there are ways to ensure unwanted deaths don’t happen. I think the idea was that the way Anakin went about it was wholly wrong what with him basically selling his soul to Sidious and all.

 

ROTS is purposely written in a way that what you bring to it personally influences your perception.

Is Anakin lucky to be the first (and youngest) non-Master on the Council, or is he unlucky to be the first Council member not granted Mastership?
It's point of view, both arguments are valid.

Personally I think there was a little spite by the Council involved, they are letting their suspicion of Palpatine colour their treatment of Anakin. But Anakin was indeed immature regardless.

 

It is not wise to tell young children that the impulse to be concerned about your mother is the first step to evil. Discerning how the child intends to cope with that concern before you define that concern by one possible, extreme end would have been much wiser. The Jedi were simply too arrogant about the success rate of their dogma for the past 1000 years that they eschewed due dilligence with Anakin. Yoda was correct to hesitate but was wrong to continue to deny Anakin after the council decided they were in favour of recruiting him. Particularly when it was Yoda's expertise that Anakin was most in need of at that point. It's passive-aggressiveness on Yoda's part to make no attempt to mitigate the potential danger he senses after Anakin is inducted. He didn't cope too well with the council not agreeing to

It is not wise to talk of attachment exclusively in negative terms. Wisdom is the ability to cope. Not just the ability to forecast the consquences of not coping with something. Particularly fear, which, evolutionary biology has conclusively proved, is a necessary emotion triggered by so many other things besides the potential to be dispossessed. Luke forecasts in this way and, momentarily, is actually aggressive towards Ben the way he was towards Vader when goaded him about Leia's potential for darkness.

As the circumstances within which emotional creatures evolves, so also do the ideas that are employed in order to cope, both with the circumstances and with the emotions. need to continuously evolve.

 

No, it's wise to answer them that attachment and fear has everything to do with being considered for Jedi training (which is what Anakin asked), and that consideration is important because acting on that fear and attachment is a path to the dark side.

Anakin understood, but it seems that you didn't (or don't want to).

 

I understand what Yoda said. I just don't have a desire or a compulsion to define everything that the Jedi order and the council say and do uncritically.

If Anakin truly understood then there would have been no Darth Vader. I think a rewatch is definitely in order, for someone.

 

What a complete non sequitur.

Darth Vader exists not by lack of understanding on Anakin's part, but by a conscious choice of giving into attachment, fear and greed. Anakin understood and ignored.