Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I take it that the capability of the mentors, in this case the Jedi, is a factor of influence, isn't it?

    Most victims don't live as part of a religious order with strict behaviour codes, most victims aren't told they are "the chosen one" who's responsible for the fate of the whole Galaxy, most victims don't live and aren't relied upon as war heroes in a civil war, most victims also don't have visions of people close to them dying that have proven true, and above all, most victims don't have mentors like Palpatine. I'd like to know how many victims would be able to lead a normal life under circumstances like these.

    He wasn't "forced" by specific persons. If that means that he has a "free will" (a debated notion in general, in disciplines from neuroscience to philosophy) and was free to consciously choose as he wished, or if he was "forced" by psychological pressures stemming from his childhood is a different question, I think.


  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I watched TPM. Nothing to indicate emotional abuse. Granted, we haven't seen what came before, but there isn't a whole lot to support that notion.

    He doesn't understand greed. He knows that Watto gambles, but he doesn't understand the full reasoning of it. Only Watto has benefited from greed. Anakin hasn't.

    Yet his mother tells him to not look back and that he cannot stop change. So he isn't following his mother's not that big of an influence. Palpatine is the influence beyond Tatooine.

    Yes, exactly.

    That was Stover trying to add justification. The TPM novelization and the original novel "Tatooine Ghost" portray Watto as not that bad.

    He never complained because his mother raised him not to. And probably told him that it wouldn't be a good idea. So she is as much to blame for not letting Anakin unleash his emotions.

    See, I don't see Anakin as a victim. That's putting a weakness on his turn. I'm not degrading those who have had tramatic childhoods. What I am saying is that Lucas never plays that up in the films or in the commentary. He does play up the idea that Anakin develops emotional neediness, which is what really drives him to be evil. If Lucas wanted to portray Anakin as a victim, he didn't do it well enough. It looks more like Anakin was a victim, but of his own personal weaknessess. His inability to differentiate (sp) between right and wrong. Obi-wan and the other Jedi, as well as Shmi are showing him what is right and wrong. Palpatine shows him a different point of view, which confuses him. Thus when he tries to apply the teachings to real life situations, he does things that he shouldn't do.
  3. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    The novel was line edited. If Lucas had felt it wasn't what he had intended I'm sure he would have objected to it.

    I see no evidence that his mother raised him to surpress emotions, but that may be the case.

    GL in "the chosen one" documentary: "you see that the person you thought was the villain is really the victim." Hayden in the same documentary stated that Anakin didn't have the opportunity to make a real choice. McDiarmid repeatedly has referred to the influence of Anakin's childhood and the absence of a father - not surprisingly, IMD holds a degree in psychology. No-one of them stated that he was a victim of his own inabilities.

    For me Lucas' portrayal of Anakin as a victim was done convincingly enough. I know from personal experience what even comparatively moderate child abuse can do to a person - even if such a person appears to lead a relatively normal life from the outside, it's always an influential factor that severely restricts the set of choices you are able to make because you're simply afraid and lack confidence, always having the feeling you're never good enough. Unless this condition is properly treated, telling yourself rationally that you have to let go doesn't help you at all, and surpressing these emotions makes things just worse.

    I don't need to see him battered by Watto or abused by Gardulla in the movie, the fact that he was a slave, the transmitter issue, the mention of the abuse in the novel is enough for me to see him as a victim - which doesn't mean I'm excusing what he has done or that I'm disburdening from all responsibilities. But I can appreciate how things came to be and that it's not only because of Anakin being unwilling to make the right choice. I think there was a lot more going on there. He came to Coruscant with a lot of psychological baggage. He felt responsible for things he had no influence on, he was afraid of not being good enough, and he couldn't live without a close emotional ties. He didn't get enough help in coming to terms with it, and he didn't have the guts to claim the help he needed from the Jedi or someone else. After all, slaves aren't exactly raised to claim what they need.

    Palpatine saw this and he saw a lot more - apart from the lack of democratic upbringing, he saw the lack of a father, the loss of an admired mentor (Qui-Gon), and even the sudden absense of the slave master. And gradually and over time, all of these "vacancies" were filled by him, while the Jedi for some reason weren't able to fill the gaps. The end result was an almost complete emotional dependency of Anakin on Palpatine. At least that's my take on it.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Exactly. There isn't any evidence to support it, but then if you're looking at it this way, then you see that's possible.

    What I'm saying as a victim is what you said. We don't need to excuse Anakin's actions. We're supposed to feel sorry, but we are also supposed to not dismiss his crimes as a Sith. Too often one can use the victim card to dismiss or justify illicit and illegal and immoral actions. Palpatine did manipulate him into doing evil. I don't deny that at all. I just don't think that we should totally rely on the slavery issues as a means of making Anakin into a monster. It does have an impact that he starts out as a slave and ends up as a slave. I liked that in "Dark Lord", when he realizes what has become now. I just don't think a "Woe is me, they made me do this" is not needed.
  5. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Of course it's quite possible; I'd say it's even likely. Shmi probably had a very hard life of her own, a life that taught her it is better not to complain. She may have taught that to Anakin, in the best interest that it would serve him best - which it would have done, had he remained a slave. But it didn't serve him well when it came to have to take important decisions - something a slave doesn't need to do - and to be responsible for the fate of the galaxy.

    My point was just that for some people it is easier to make "the right decision" than it is for others, and that there are reasons other than Anakin being stupid, being stubborn, being inappreciative of the Jedi training. Anakin definately wasn't raised like the average guy on the street (whoever that is) and since there was no slavery in the republic and the other Jedi were recruited in the republic, he wasn't the average Jedi either. From his background it was a lot harder for him to impropriate the Jedi teaching than it was for others. The Jedi for some reason either didn't see that or they didn't act appropriately.

    Some people may be psychologically strong enough to make the right choices despite all of this, but Anakin wasn't. I'd say with that background and under the circumstances the majority would have broken down just like Anakin.

    Concerning the topic, I don't think Anakin had to become a Sith. I think Anakin had to confront the dark side, his own inner dark side, the trauma and the repressed feelings. For one reason or another this didn't work out during Jedi training, and as a result, he delved into the dark side by becoming a Sith.
  6. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Sorry guys, I've been distracted by a sick child in my house :(
    Will respond when I am able to focus appropriately.
  7. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    How can Anakin listen to reason or his Jedi training after what happened to his mom? Padme doesn't know what it's like to have visions of loved ones dying and then have it become real so there's no way she could help Anakin.


    Well she was helping by telling him what he needed to do to save her. All she wanted was his love and guess what saves Luke in the end.


    Luke isn?t equipped to kill the Sith, but he can conquer them and does so, through compassion.
    Yeah compassion for his father not the SITH. Remember Luke was trying to kill the Empereror in ROTJ hardly a sign of compassion for him
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    A Jedi can kill his opponet, they must do so compassionately and not hatefully. The Jedi are supposed to have compassion for everyone, including the Sith. That doesn't mean that they can't kill them. They must do it as a Jedi would and what Luke was trying to do with Sidious and what Anakin did with Tyranus, was not the Jedi way.
  9. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    Right. Luke tried to kill the Emperor and then, once Vader pushed the ?twin sister? button, tried to kill Vader. And guess what, Luke was failing ? giving in to his hate.

    Remember, the Jedi never once told Luke that he had to confront the Emperor ? only Vader.

    Once Luke finally stopped dodging trying to deal with, or appealing to the ounce of good in his father and dealt with who his father is, that being a twisted and evil Sith, he did so with compassion and broke through.

    This is how Luke conquered the Sith. Once Luke stopped just short of killing Vader, he figured it out. He then showed compassion for Vader and refused to kill, or physically confront the Emperor.
  10. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i was a little braindead when i wrote that post. not very thought through. [face_blush] must apologize.

    Correlation does not mean causality. Society does influence the individual. But the individual still has free will. Identity is an interaction between the two. Individual perceptions of life events experienced or observed will alter the outcome of that interaction in a unique way for each person.

    yes, i should think we keep up the illusion it's in our hands because part of it is indeed in our hands and because we feel less like puppets if we do. but it happenes between, doesn't it. interaction happenes *between* individual and collective... identity is not a readymade set of things that you can conscioulsy choose to apply or not. a lot of 'stuff' is simply beyond us to control.

    Giving in ?abundance? is not the only way to give. The gift of time or a ?random act of kindness? counts, too. I wouldn't narrow spirituality to Christians. Faith is "the larger mystery of the Universe" :)

    not sure what you mean. of course you can give less than what is abundant and it's still giving. spirituality isn't narrowed to christians, no. what the christian religion propagates, to my mind, is giving. they like their people giving. when i
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    emotions aren't there to be helpful. they are just there. you can choose to ingore them or you can choose to heed them. either way they are part of your decision-making and your life.
    i see lucas' message differently, however. [face_plain]
    anakin is different in almost every other aspect from those around him. or else they don't admit to being like him. he is the very embodiment of human nature which the jedi so desperately try to deny and don't manage.
    simplifying the saga to good against evil has never struck much of a chord with me. it doesn't apply to much of anything that i see on the screen.
    demanding respect from other people is the one thing that i hold on to. if people cannot respect my personality and my character why on earth why would i respect them? it's a mutual thing. respect isn't earned, it should be freely given. here, there and everywhere. if no one respects me and my ways just like i must respect them, there is no point to it.
    respecting a person and showing it, too, will not end in damage. anakin never eypresses any desire to rule the galaxy until he has committed a horrendous mass murder. so i'm not sure where you get this funny idea that he wants to rule the known world.
    face it. telling someone he *has* to let go is forcing it. i'm not sure how you define force, i define it this way. saying, if you want to be a jedi, you must do the following: forget about your mum, not marry, not have material possessions. and these are the ground rules which you MUST obey, then that is called forcing it. yes, in my book. in yours it may be a gentle reminder, i'm not sure.
    now if you could convey what the wisdom of letting go is, the independence of material and emotional issues, the independence of your own person, absolute freedom, without having to simply demand to let go end of story, you might succeed. other than that i don't see any logic to your argument of this was not forced. try again.
  12. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    Excellent =D=
  13. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    Sin, how does one kill an ?opponent? with compassion? How does one even approach someone with compassion and at the same time, view them as an opponent? That isn?t compassionate at all.

    It?s all about how one approaches the situation to begin with:

    ?Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him, which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself ? but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader.?

    George Lucas ? TESB Commentary


    And is it any wonder that the parallel is there, when Luke looks down and sees his face in Vader?s helmet and then we see the moment of realization when Luke looks at Vader?s stump and then back at his own mechanical hand, in ROTJ ? and then he finally switches his saber off and tosses it aside.

    There was no way that Luke was going to kill the Sith, without becoming one in the process. The only way Luke was going to muster up the power to literally kill the Sith, was to give into his anger:

    "The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he?s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he?s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. In "The Empire Strikes Back" we had them confront each other and fight together. But in this film Luke has become more mature so that now he knows he shouldn?t be fighting him?that is the path to the dark side. So it?s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn?t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what?s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004


    Instead, Luke stops himself, becomes calm and at peace and knows what he must do.

    Luke?s only destiny, in the entire OT, is to confront Vader and become a Jedi. That?s all. He?s never once told to confront the Emperor. The Emperor isn?t a part of Luke?s destiny. And we see exactly HOW Luke becomes a Jedi ? by showing love and compassion for Vader. Luke becomes a Jedi facing Vader and fulfills his part of the bargain, which enables Anakin to fulfill his ? which is to destroy the Sith.

    Luke conquers them ? Anakin destroys them.

    YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi
    Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor
    .
    If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path,
    as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.


    And thanks, YYZ.


  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    As Lucas puts it, a Jedi must rely less on their emotions and more on logic. Luke makes a much calmer and more rational decision not to fight, then when he was relying on his emotions to deal with his situation. Lucas even says he'd like to see humans be less emotional when going through life.

    His problem is that he lets his emotions dictate his actions. A Jedi cannot afford to do that, otherwise they will be lost. Anakin is lost because of that.

    Well, ultimately that's what it comes down to. Good and evil.

    Respect and trust has to be earned. Especially when there is a reason to believe that that trust and respect will be **** upon, by the other. That's just the way it is. Is it right, that depends on who you ask. You can give respect and still get kicked in the face for it. It happens. Anakin was given all kinds of trust and respect by the Council, right up until he blew a gasket. That's when trust became an issue. They couldn't trust him to remain objective. And the issue of respect is that Anakin thinks he needs to be a Jedi Master. He thinks that he's deserving of it. But he hasn't proven he's worthy. Not with that outburst, he hasn't. To be a Jedi Master, a Jedi Knight must prove that they have an understanding of the Force and have Mastered their emotions. Anakin is far from there.

    And as to wanting to rule, it's not so much that early on. It's that he wants to make people do things his way. He's already agreeing with the idea of a dictatorship, before he finds out that Palpatine is a Sith. Once that's done, he's got no problems with that idea.

    No one is demanding Anakin to let go. They're telling him that in order to deal with his problems, he must let go of his attachments. No one tells him to forget Padme or Shmi. They're telling him to be in control of his emotions and to not cling to the people in his life.

  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct?
    if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then?

    i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT.
  16. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    Well, when you say training and conduct, do you mean the Codes and rules of the Jedi Order? The only Jedi that wasn?t shackled to the Codes and rules, was Qui-Gon, the only Living Force Jedi of the PT. The only thing QG followed, was the Will of the Force.

    I think when Luke calmed himself, he was also listening to the Force. He trusted his feelings and showed compassion for Vader. He becomes a Jedi.

    They weren?t justified. The Order was purged because they allowed it to happen to themselves. They were just as motivated by fear as Anakin was and by ROTS end, both had ?died?.

    MACE WINDU: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ANAKIN: Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You will need my help if you are going to arrest him.

    MACE WINDU: For your own good, stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgment.


    It looks like Anakin?s judgment wasn?t the only one being clouded by fear. Mace states it plainly about the Jedi Order, himself.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Well, there is nothing that says a Jedi cannot kill. Compassion does not mean that you cannot kill. Compassion means that you do not hate your enemy, or ally or your loved ones. When Obi-wan kills Maul, it is compassionately. He is not doing this out of revenge for Qui-gon. He's doing it because it's the right thing to do. Maul will not surrender. It's kill or be killed. So long as he does it as a Jedi, it's perfectly fine. Anakin killed Dooku out of revenge for all the lives lost to the Clone Wars and his missing forearm. The compassionate thing to have done was just lower his blades and demand that Dooku surrender. When Anakin attacks Mace, he does so fueled by his emotions. He's afraid to lose Padme and angry that he has to choose between the Jedi and the Sith. He's angry that he will lose her. So he lets his hate at the thought of losing her drive him to stop Mace. When Luke fights Vader the first time, he is doing it out of revenge for the death of his father and for Obi-wan. After learning the truth, he is trying to avoid fighting because he doesn't want to kill him. That doesn't mean that he couldn't kill him. It just meant that in this instance, to save himself and his father, he had to not fight this battle physically. But mentally. As it turns out, Vader kills Palpatine and will die as a result of this. Thus the Sith are wiped out and Anakin dies as a good man, having performed an act of compassion.
  18. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    ^^^^^

    If you look up double standard in a dictionary,
    you just might see that very explanation as
    an illustration.

    I agree with you on Obi Wan, only, I don't think
    Obi Wan was cognitively thinking, this is the right,
    stately, Jedi thing to do, kill without malice.
    I think he was thinking, this guy is about to kill me.
    And I'd rather not be dead just now.

    Dooku, meh. He was on his knees, dumbfounded.
    How explicitly does one need to express "No mas?"
    I really have no problem with Anakin killing Dooku
    for the same rationale (not exactly the same reasoning)
    that Mace used for his intent to kill Sidious.
    Too dangerous to be left alive.

  19. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    They didn't say that Luke wasn't suppose to go after the Emperor either because they know that if Luke somehow defeats Vader, a duel with the Emperor would be inevitable. That's why Yoda warns Luke, Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate, you will.
  20. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    Of course there is nothing that says a Jedi cannot kill, unless in the PT a Jedi quotes that it was against the ?Jedi way? ? Anakin/Dooku.

    And when Obi killed Dooku, it wasn?t an act of compassion. He cleared his mind of anger and simply did what he had to do. I think you?re confusing compassion for doing something without anger. Had Obi actually done the compassionate thing, he would have leapt over Maul, only 'disarmed' him and then take him prisoner.

    Well, PM, Luke does ?defeat? Vader and then refused to duel the Emperor and became a Jedi because of it.

    What Yoda warned Luke about, was exactly what Luke almost fell to, when he tried to strike the Emperor down in the first place.

    Luke?s destiny is to confront Vader and become a Jedi. This is what the Jedi tell Luke. This is what Luke does. This is all that Luke does. There is nothing about Luke?s destiny that goes beyond that. Anything else is simply something that you?re adding.
  21. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    This isn't an adding, it is a fact because there is more to Luke's destiny to just bringing his father's soul back from the darkness that is Darth Vader which is that if Luke didn't succeed, then he would be forced to kill both Vader and the Emperor. Both Yoda and Obi-wan wanted Luke to do that because they couldn't do the job themselves and the only reason Luke refused to duel the Emperor is because he felt that it would only pull him back into the Dark Side and he told the Emperor that he wasn't going to give in. The first time Luke tried to strike down the Emperor was because he was trying to save the Rebels from further attacks from the Death Star at the Emperor's command.

    Vader stopped Luke from doing so because he knew that killing the Emperor will not be enough to pull Luke down the Dark Side.
  22. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    Luke?s only destiny is to become a Jedi, while facing Vader. The only thing Luke has to do, is conquer his fears. When you think about it, besides Qui-Gon, Luke is the only one in the entire Saga, that doesn?t get conquered by his own fear. Anakin fell to his ? the Jedi Order fell to theirs. All Luke can do, is the right thing. Only that can compel his father to let go of his hate, but that is still his father?s choice to make.

    Easier said than done, considering Luke wasn?t ?equipped? to. And if you bring up the fact that Luke beat Vader, I?ll just kindly tell you that he do so, with aid of the Dark Side and his hatred.

    Interesting that with Yoda and Obi becoming Living Force Jedi, they?d be so fixated on what they want Luke to do in the future. They recognize Luke?s destiny and train Luke to have the Force as his ally. They want Luke to listen to the Force, trust his instincts and resist the Dark Side. That?s ALL that they expected from Luke.

    Essentially, like Qui-Gon, choose to do the Force?s Will.

    Hatred was the reason Luke tried to strike the Emperor down, PM.
  23. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I agree on the part of Obi Wan killing Maul because (and this is important) Qui Gon was still alive. Obi Wan here is thinking of Qui Gon because he's the only one there to protect him. He did sort of lose his cool a bit though; which really is understandable for a Padawan who saw his Master cut down.

    It's the same with Anakin when he kills the Emperor. It's not a killing for the sake of violent takeover; it's to protect the helpless. Although Luke is his son and therefore a greater concern to Anakin; I think that it could have been anyone being electrocuted and Anakin would have reacted the same way. The catalist was Luke showing mercy and throwing is lightsaber down at the risk of his own life. It's the same way Obi Wan raised his saber in passive resistance to Vader; allowing Vader to cut him down. I always felt he didn't want to kill Vader for sake of Anakin but besides that; he's thinking of the welfare of the others, particularly Luke and by ending the conflict with Vader, Luke can let go and leave the death star without feeling like they abandoned Old Ben.
  24. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I think if Luke didn't succeed then he would just stand there and die just as Old Ben had shown him. And knowing where Ben and Yoda went, Luke would have no fear or even doubt about the right thing to do. I think the lesson here is that ideally if those whith force prowess follow the Jedi path; then the Sith cannot replenish their ranks and eventually die out with time. It's not glamorous like a romanticised war film but it's still the best defence against the Sith. This I think was really the will of the force that forged this path and not so much Yoda or Obi Wan.

    But it didn't matter really because Luke was family. It was the surefire route to bringing Anakin back from the dark side. Obi Wan knew this would work, but I'm not sure if Yoda was convinced. The important thing was Luke had to confront Vader and not fall to the dark side.
  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i kind of said training and conduct for lack of a better phrase. i meant 'whatever they do as the jedi order'. and i see you agree with it anyway.
    you know what it looks like though? that your 'listening to the force's will' is a metaphor for independence of spirit. QGJ has it, and luke will have it again, but anakin cannot achieve it within the order as it is. what puzzles me is how QGJ could achieve it within the order.
    i'm with you.
    so do you think wiping out the jedi order was a necessary part to the prophecy business?
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