Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    there seems to be this double standard going on regarding when it's fine to kill. when it fits your agenda apparently.
    i think in a way lucas has written himself in a corner with having to make the order flawed in the PT, this way they appear like they are complete morons at times and have forgotten what their original idea was about. there is no such thing as completely defensive martial arts, not to my mind. like anything martial arts also depend on an opponent and cannot be practised without opponent.
    there is also the small issue of self-preservation which keeps us alive during fights, it also keeps jedi alive. if all they did was run into combat with arms wide open, there'd be only a small group of them left, hidden in a cage somewhere, shivering becuase they couldn't make fire by themselves for fear of igniting their sabers...
    anyway, we exist between self-preservation and sacrifice, it seems, there is no absolute state to this, however much the jedi apologists and the jedi order would like it.
  2. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    Well, I don?t really know anything of EU, so I really don?t know what QG?s past was like, other than he was trained by Dooku.

    That?s tricky. I don?t believe that the Force intentionally put things in motion to place the Jedi in such peril. I think the Jedi had just as much to do with what happened to them, as Sidious did. I think the Jedi had an opportunity with QG and Anakin to get themselves back on track ? that being, becoming servants of the Force again, instead of servants and warriors to a Republic. They blew their chance.

    They were not equipped to train Anakin to do the Force?s Will, as they weren?t even doing it themselves.

    Maybe it took a perceived ?tragedy? to force the Jedi to change.

    Didn?t they run into combat with sabers lit, ended up a small group (Yoda and Obi) and go into hiding anyway? :p
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i love lucas to a tee but this staement makes me wonder how much it was taken out of context. if anything, we are so little relying on our feelings, anything concerning them that i pity anyone who asks for even *less* of it. right now we are basically at a stage that we acknowledge we have them.


    quite right. anakin cannot be a good jedi because he should have to deny his basic personality in order to be a jedi, a sort of mindless and emotionless machine.


    sorry, but right now this bores me stiff. if it came down to good vs evil i most definitely wouldn't like it. which is also a circular argument because you don't know me and all. but it s a fact for me.
    they didn't trust him before. they didn't trust him when he was s mall boy. they didn't trust him even when he delivered. they didn't trust him.
    if you only give respect when it's earned, how can people respect you in social conduct because they have to prove first how worthy they are of your respect. that's kind of gang mentality, isn't it? if i walk into a shop i want to be respected as a person and a customer, i know when this is being hurt, when people suddenly decide they could just invade my privacy and stuff. and likewise, others are asking the same of me. without me knowing them. it's basic.
  4. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> i love lucas to a tee but this staement makes me wonder how much it was taken out of context.

    Here's the quote, Frared:

    Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act -- when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" --that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

    -- George Lucas, Time Interview with Bill Moyers
    />

    >>>> if anything, we are so little relying on our feelings, anything concerning them that i pity anyone who asks for even *less* of it. right now we are basically at a stage that we acknowledge we have them.

    But there is a world of difference between understanding your emotions and being in touch with them. And being LED by your emotions.


    -JR :)



    />/>
  5. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i suppose i will have to disagree with lucas (don't worry, disagreement doesn't mean i don't love you, george). or maybe not. i should like to see luke's decision as a conscious act, which both encompasses his feelings for people (basically anyone who means anything to him) and reason. it's just a great act, nothing much to say about it i have.
    i should think the sacrifice he makes is completely honest and not led by any second-guessing. which is what i would demand from a jedi. no authority over the consciousness, just a person being in the world.
    hell. yeah. and i would never argue to have them control me. i just argue they are equal. they have *equal* rights. there is reason, there is logic, there are feelings. they all come into play.
    i wsn't talking EU so much, just how in the world the order still produced thinkers instead of followers. i mean, for what it's worth, obi-wan is a strategist and if not an intellectual, he is sort of street-smart and clever.
    that's probably the one tricksy little question. they undoubtedly had to do with it... as much as sid had.

    the question is what is the alternative to wiping the order out? anakin comes into himself, founds new jedi order. sith and jedi are still active. does that work? that sounds like a proper schism to me. you have all those new churches springing up. and reformed faith.

    they blew their chance, but did they properly have one? and if they didn't have that chance, how could the jedicide have been prevented?

    questions, questions. />/>
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    The thing was that Dooku was no longer a threat. Palpatine manipulated Anakin into killing him. The fact that Anakin feels guilty, even if only for a minute, is evident that it's wrong to do what he did. But what happens when he attacks Mace is that he has truly thought that Palpatine has surrendered and because of his greedy desire to learn from him, Anakin betrays Mace and tries to justify it as seeing Mace setting a double standard. But then he sees Mace be killed and he hadn't intended for that to happen.

    This is why Anakin is tricked. Palpatine has created a scenario which confuses Anakin's morals.

    It's not quite confusion. As Lucas says, the Jedi shouldn't hate their enemies. So when I say that he kills compassionately, I mean that he is not filled with anger and hate. Nor is he ignoring the fact that he just took the life of a living being. It's the same way when Mace looks down after killing Jango. He was not proud of having to take a human life, but he is acknowledged what he has done. If you kill with anger and hate, that leads to the Dark Side. If you kill and show no remorse, that's not very Jedi like. It's not the Dark Side, but if you do not feel some remorse and acknowledge your actions, it could lead to the dark path.

    What he said.

    No one is saying that he has to be mindless or emotionless. What's being said is that he has to control his emotions. You cannot tell me that you get angry and lash out all the time. You cannot tell me that you cry everytime your feelings are hurt. You cannot tell me that you're afraid of your own shadow. What's being said is that he has to take the grown up way with dealing with things. He has to control his fear and let go of it. He cannot be controlled by it. No one should. If he had done this simple little thing, Padme would still be alive and he wouldn't be stuck in a suit for the rest of his life.

    I never said that I know you. I'm just saying that with Star Wars, it comes down to good and evil. Right
  7. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Just because Luke was able to conquer his fears doesn't mean that he's forbidden to kill. Obi-wan would've died if he didn't finish off Darth Maul and Mace Windu would've suffered the same quick death as his Jedi posse if he didn't try to kill PalpSidious. Both Obi-wan and Yoda knew that if Vader wasn't going to let go of his hate, then Luke will be forced to do what he told Obi-wan that he wouldn't do...kill his own father.

    We don't know how equipped Luke is but that still doesn't mean that he can't destroy both Vader and the Emperor on his own since the Emperor himself believes that he can.

    They also want Luke to destroy the Sith because he's the only Jedi left with the power to do so. Obi-wan and Yoda did NOT train Luke to be a Jedi nor did they give him a lightsaber just so he can guilt-trip Vader into giving up the Dark Side since they were preparing him to do more than that. They also wouldn't be lying to Luke about his father if they really planned for him to save Vader.


    There was no hatred because Luke didn't react the same way he did when Vader threaten to turn Leia into a Sith. That's why Vader stopped him.
  8. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    I always love how people refer to Obi?s situation with Maul, as some sort of be-all, end-all template for how Luke should have handled his situation. Obi did what he had to do. He calmed his mind and followed his instincts. Guess what, so did Luke and it looks like the Force wanted Luke to do things differently than what Obi did.

    We know enough, seeing that Lucas tells us that he wasn?t equipped enough:

    "I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

    -? George Lucas, Cut Magazine, 1999

    "In coming back to see Yoda, we have to figure out Luke?s training and the fact that he never finished his training, and that obviously now he?s got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place or something, but at some point you have to say well now all the props have been taken away, and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he?s going to have to do it upon his own, and that he?s really not equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn?t finish his studies, and now he?s going to be half trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

    -- George Lucas, DVD Commentary, Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, 2004


    And seeing how the Emperor knew how to exploit and destroy the Jedi Order, it stands to reason that he also knows how Luke can destroy the Sith. He even tries to undercut Luke?s means for doing so, by telling Vader that ?compassion? will be Luke?s ?undoing?. Crafty manipulator, that Sidious.

    They trained Luke to do the Force?s Will ? to listen to it, to have it as his ally and to trust his feeling and instincts. They weren?t worried about Luke?s power. Focusing on power seems to be something that a Sith would do.

    EMPEROR: You want this, don't you? The hate is
    swelling in you now
    . Take your Jedi weapon.
    Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it.
    Give in to your anger. With each passing
    moment, you make yourself more my servant.

    [...]

    EMPEROR: Good. I can feel your anger. I am
    defenseless. Take your weapon
  9. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Wow, I?ve been away for awhile, don?t think I?ll try to catch up point by point, there?s been too much sickness [face_sick] at my house & I?ve got too much to do. I?ll just jump in here.
    It?s not as simple as good vs. evil Sinister.

    IMO Lucas spoke to the nuances of shades of gray and reinforced the concept of a ?certain points of view? in the prequels. The question is where is the ethical line and how close do you want to step up to it? (...and how hard is it to step back if you step over?)

    A Jedi must learn to manage his/her emotions so they are not controlled by them, yet it is imperative that they have, feel and express emotions. (The words ?control emotions? sometimes connotates a ?lack of?, although this is incorrect, the mental image is can be that of a person who lacks empathy.)

    The Sith use the emotions of Anger and Hate to fuel their drive to gain power. These are negative emotions. The Sith use power and control to intimidate, enslave and instill fear in others. There is always a weakness in people, (or governments) who use power/oppression to control others.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The shades of gray do show how one can confuse the lines of good and evil, especially as justification of doing things that are wrong. I don't deny that. But the overall theme is the battle between good and evil. The shades of gray show us how Anakin, Dooku, the Imperials and the Separatist Council justify their actions.
  11. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I think the shades of gray are there to encourage us to reflect on the possibilities that people might do the wrong things for the right reasons, or do the right things for the wrong reasons. And further, on the difference between doing the legal things, doing the ethically right hings and doing the necessary things. And the difficulties that are involved in distinguishing between them.
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yep. no need to say more. :)
  13. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Trixy indeed.

    My personal (and professional) philosophy is: ?I will trust you...and I have faith in your abilities, This is our starting point - opportunity.

    ....unless you give me a reason not to.? If you violate my trust, there will be consequences. This does not mean I have lost faith in your abilities, but you will have to earn my trust again.

    Call it a different POV, but I find that people who start from a position of having to earn their way to trust perceive themselves as being distrusted by others.
    If they find themselves having to re-earn trust due to a violation of trust, they understand the reasons for their efforts and take responsibility for their own actions.

    It?s all in the starting position.
    QGJ, saw Anakin?s potential as a Jedi and the Chosen One ? he trusted Anakin.
    The Jedi, on the other hand, saw the fear and darkness ? they distrusted him.
    Two (symbiant) sides of the same person ? both had to be there, (they exist within each of us).
    How trust and faith is nurtured in each individual may affect the decisions/judgment that a person is able make.

    The Jedi failed their own pledge to serve the "Force above all" (did they distrust their ability to use the Force?) and should have taken a ?Kierkegaard's leap of faith?, as Luke does in ROTJ with Anakin.

    I believe in you?.



    Your response (genuineness) to "fakers" will show who has the "high ground".
  14. d0Rk-VaDeR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2006
    star 4
    There are many theorys i have about this but, even though he did turn into a Sith and didnt fufill his prophecy, in a way he sort of did because he had a sudden revalation/Turn to the LS and right then I considered him to be a Jedi again. He then killed Palpatine, therefore i think in a way HE DID AND DID NOT FUFILL HIS PROPHECY.

    Twisted Theory, but sort of true
  15. El Kabong Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 1999
    star 3
    In your opinion. . . .

    The problem with proclaiming to know the answer to a propecy is like saying you know the answer to a zen Koan. There is no such beast.

    From where I sit, balance to the Force is not a 1-1 parity of sith/jedi, but that the Jedi have become mired down in their traditions that they had become ineffective at best, a direct hinderance to the galaxy at worst. They needed to have their ass kicked, and thats what the Chosen one did (in conjunction with his son). The old way was swept away and the Jedi jump started again. Balance.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi were going to be wiped out by Palpatine's machinations, unless they adapted. All Anakin did was betray Jedi and aided in the Purge. Balance is just getting rid of Sidious. As Lucas said of Palpatine's voice changes during the knighting scene, this is the first time the Dark Side is unbalanced and flowing through a Dark Lord of the Sith. It's free and unrestrained. Killing him and Anakin's own death restores the balance.

    Check the most recent issue of Star Wars Insider's "Ask The Master".
  17. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    When I read sinister's statement that respect has to be earned, I was thinking the exact same thing. I think everyone has a right to be respected as a human (or alien) being from the start, until he/she loses that respect.

    I agree - plus, they perceive themselves as not being worthy of respect the way they are, being not good enough, until they prove themselves.
  18. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    What Luke did had nothing to do with the Force telling him what to do, it was his choice not to kill Vader.

    Luke couldn't kill the Emperor because he didn't want to be consumed by the Dark Side. He even showed the Emperor that he won't give in by throwing away his lightsaber. It has nothing to do with Luke not being equipped enough to defeat the Emperor.


    Too bad Sidious underestimated both Luke's resolve and Vader's attachment to Luke.

    There's a difference between listening to the Force and being controlled by it. Even as Obi-wan/Yoda wanted Luke to use the Force, they also want him to follow the oath as many Jedi before him have done...to be the defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy. In order for Luke to do that, they would want him to end the oppression of the Sith like Mace Windu tried to do in ROTS which is why Yoda tells Luke, "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor." If Obi-wan and Yoda weren't concerned about Luke's power, then they have no reason to believe that he can't destroy the Sith by himself.

  19. DT421 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 5
    It was Luke?s choice to be compassionate

    LUKE: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

    YODA: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

    LUKE: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

    YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
    the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.


    Please tell me that this isn?t exactly what Luke does in that moment.

    He?s half trained and unable to kill the Emperor. What, he?s going to gain ?magic points? by killing Vader, without anger, thereby giving him the power to kill the Emperor?

    The Emperor didn?t underestimate the Skywalker?s. He fears Luke greatly and even has to question Vader?s state of mind, to keep him in check. His weakness was being overconfident in thinking he could manipulate the situation.

    Follow an oath? It was the Jedi?s strict adherence to ?oaths?, or Codes, the ?Jedi Way? and the reluctance to change, that helped to get them purged.

    And the emphasis is on ?with the Force as his ally?. The Force was not the ally of the Jedi in the PT.

    They stopped following Codes and started following the Living Force ? making the Force their ally? again.

    And the Jedi are never shown to covet Luke?s power. Resisting the Dark Side, listening to the Force and having compassion for evil, takes self-discipline ? not power. This is what Luke needed to ?conquer? Vader. Compassion - not power. That seems more Jedi-like.

    Well, it?s a good thing that I went to the theater to see a movie and not a book reading, when I saw ROTJ, because the ?hate? was ?swelling? in Luke and he gave into it ? not completely, but it IS why Luke tried to strike the Emperor down.
  20. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    It is the sound of the dark side flowing, unrestrained and unbalanced, through a master Sith Lord for the first time in ages. SW Insider #85, p. 50

    Just for clarification,

    The Force (as a whole) had been unbalanced for quite some time.
    The quote states the dark side is flowing "unrestrained" through Sidious.
    The dark side is not unbalanced by itself, and it is not the first time it has been unbalanced.
  21. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    =D= =D= =D=

  22. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Yes.

    From a Certain Point of View Luke did make a choice not to kill Vader.

    But... internally he made a choice not to give into his hate, which would have led him to the dark side.

    His choice, therefore, was to be a Jedi.

    To resist the temptation placed before him - the quick and easy path.

    He relies on his faith.

    That is what that "Use the Force" is, a leap of faith.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Force told Luke to follow his bliss. That this is not what he wants to do and he knows it deep down. By listening to the Force, Luke finds the strength to resist the Dark Side.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Luke was showing mercy to Vader which he himself couldn't do for Dooku and he had the benefit of knowing that Darth Vader is his father to keep himself from going down the same path Vader went. Also, just because a Jedi doesn't use the Force for attack does NOT mean they're forbidden to fight.

    Again, Luke was unable to kill the Emperor because he didn't want to risk being lured back into the Dark Side but it does NOT mean that he's physically incapable of defeating the Emperor. The Emperor wouldn't have feared Luke so much if he didn't believe that he can defeat him.

    The Emperor DID underestimate the Skywalkers because he didn't count that Luke would be able to motivate Vader into giving up the Dark Side and he also didn't count on Vader to save his son. If he did, the Emperor would've destroyed Vader before he had a chance to betray him.

    Having compassion for your enemies does NOT mean that you should be sitting ducks because the Jedi still want Luke to destroy the Sith meaning they want him to kill both Vader and the Emperor. Obi-wan knew what Yoda meant when he said, "Destroy the Sith, we must" and Padme knew what Obi-wan is going to do after he told her what Anakin did to the Jedi so there's no reason to say that Yoda and Obi-wan meant something else when they told Luke that "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor" or that "the Emperor has already won" when Luke says he won't kill his father.


    Well, I have the benefit of watching the prequal trilogy to know that killing someone does NOT automatically make you a Sith Lord. Obi-wan didn't become one when he killed Darth Maul, Mace Windu didn't become one when he killed Jango Fett, and Yoda didn't become one when he killed several clonetroopers. Even when Anakin killed both Dooku and the Tuskens, he still didn't become a Sith until he betrayed Mace so that's enough assurance for me to know that Luke wouldn't go to the Dark Side if he had killed the Emperor because he was trying to stop him from further attacking the Rebels.

    As you said, Luke hasn't gave in to the Dark Side completely which is why Vader stopped him.
  25. TH421 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2004
    star 2
    I think that while Anakin was the Chosen One, his path really was a matter for him to freely choose. The story, of course, depends upon his turning to the Dark Side in pursuit of a power beyond the reach of Jedi teachings. But had he chosen differently, selflessly, he might still have managed to destroy the Sith, bring balance to the Force, and thereby won the respect he felt he deserved but had not received from the Jedi council.

    I still feel that had Anankin accepted that Padmé's life or death was not his to decide, he could have had in truth everything he desired: He could have exposed the Sith, ended the war, achieved his Mastery and then, if the Jedi code forbid marriage, he could resign from the Order, and make a new life for himself with his wife and children, confident that he had already done more for the Jedi and the Galaxy than any had before him, and could thus choose a private life without any question of dishonor in the choice. He would have been happy.

    Instead, we see the choice he did make, and the results those choices had, paving the way for the OT, and the difficult choces which will face Luke Skywalker - choices that we the audience can now appreciate more fully.
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