Anakin had to become a Sith...

Exactly. They had to adapt, but they didn't have to die to do that. They died because Anakin made bad decisions because he fought against what he was supposed to do.

 

The wording of the prophecy implies that he would destroy the Sith, then lead them and they would become more powerful than they ever were. Where did this happen? In no way, shape or form was he ever the leader of the Sith. Beyond killing Sidious, he didn't do anything else in that prophecy. The Jedis are the ones who got something from the prophecy of the Chosen One being fulfilled. They got a new order out of it. The Sith got NOTHING out of him bringing balance to the force but extinction.

 

I agree that this Sith prophecy from KOTOR sounds accurate. Not saying that it couldn't be, but it seems to imply that Anakin is reincarnated. The only thing that's established in the films is that Anakin must destroy the Sith to bring balance. Lucas makes this clear that this is his destiny. Not killing the Jedi and the Sith, just the Sith. In the eu, Sidious believes that the Force does need to be balanced, but he doesn't really understand it. At least, that's what I've gleaned from spoilers about Dark Lord. I haven't read it yet.

 

but that's about it, right? that it would take away free will. that aside maybe the force just doesn't care much about its users and therefore cannot be bothered if they get destroyed or not.

 

It gets down to what is meant by "force balance". I believe that since every force user causes a ripple in the force, balance means no force users, Sith or Jedi. Luke is still left at the end of ROTJ, but thats close enough for practical balance.

 

Balance means that good and evil are equal. Neither side has an advantage. The Sith disrupt that by taking over the galaxy. It'd be no different if the Jedi did the same thing.

 

Good Point OutlawJedi... I guess it comes down to the question of destiny or choice?

 

LOL!

 

I agree SithStarSlayer. It is the ying/yang of it all. You cannot possibly let one go without the other. In the book Yoda refers at the end that he was too arogant and that the whole galaxy changed except the jedi. Because of this he "failed" against Sidious. Therefore the jedi had to be wiped out and the sith so that they could start anew. Obi Wan in the book also says that he will take the boy and that Yoda should take the girl (Luke/Leia) and train them since birth. Yoda says no to that and instructs Obi Wan to train the kids when they are ready. Had they just let Anakin get married, or even visit his mom for goodness sake, and stop this selfless lonely life that jedi are forced into then they might not have had to go 20+ years of Empire rule. If they would have done that maybe Anakin wouldn't have needed a "father figure" like Palpatine and then he wouldn't have trusted him and it would have been a different story. Then again, if it was a different story I would be forced to have been a star trek fan and that would be sad for all the galaxy indeed.

 

A fate worse than death...

 

My take on the prophesy was that it was indeed misread. BUT Anakin was still the chosen one. The mistake in reading the prophest was that I believe the Jedi assumed that the prophesy was messianic in nature, meaning that Anakin, "the chosen one" would deliver them, by bringing balance to the force. In actuality the prophesy was apocalyptic in nature to the Jedi order. Once the Jedi got too far off the beaten path, too involved in politics, the "chosen one " was created to come down like an angry god, (which Anakin did) wipe the Jedi slate clean (did that too,leaving only obi-wan and yoda in the meantime), and then destroy the sith(check), therefore bringing balance to the force(purpose fulfilled). This actually rivals the Old Testament biblical story of Noah and the Ark. Does anyone else notice this? God washing the slate clean after the world was so polluted. Just like the force cleansing itself once the Jedi order became "polluted"

 

Excellent and Interesting observation egolden. I would never have thought along those lines, but I see where your comparisons can be drawn.

 

I like the parallel being drawn to the Bible. Many misread what was being written and passed down by the Prophets. In the films, Anakin did fulfill the Prophecy and none of what was said was inaccurate. It just wasn't as thorough as it could have been.

 

I thought the Force was unbalanced because the Sith take from it while the Jedi use it correctly. In other words, the Sith were depleting the Force and that made it unbalanced. It had nothing to do with having an equal amount of Jedis and Siths. If it did, it would have been balanced when it was Obi-Wan/Yoda and Sidious/Vader.

 

Didn't the imbalance stem from the stagnation and complacency of the Jedi Order?

The Sith adapted by adopting a new strategy, then plotted and executed their plan to erode the very foundation that the Jedi Order stood upon.

What could have been better for the Sith, than to turn the whole galaxy against the Jedi?

Nothing.
It was brilliant, shrewd and well manipulated from the get go.




Also, I agree that balance in terms of the Force, has nothing to do with the number of Force users. Instead it centers around atunement to both the Living and the Cosmic Force. At the time of the PT, no one was more in tune with the Living Force than Darth Sidious. I am sure many of you will argue this point with me.

I await your robust dialogue...

 

Anakin's problem is that he was selfish and being married to Padme, which fed into his attachment to her, is what allowed the Empire to rule for 24 years. He needed to say, "I love you, but I will not sell my soul to save you. I will let go of my fears and trust in the Force." That was the only way he could save the one that he loved. But he didn't do that and so he pays the price for his lack of vision.

 

I just can't agree that the whole purpose of the Chosen One was to destroy the Jedi. This isn't the Bible story of the great flood where everyone was so corrupt and immoral that God decided to start over! The Jedi were hardly so bad that they needed to be wiped out. Talk about the punishment not fitting the crime. That's like killing someone for stealing some candy from the store.

 

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DarthJiangWei posted:
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Here is description of the propechy from, WikiPedia. com:


Around the time of the Jedi Civil War, the coming of the Sith'ari, an ancient Sith prophecy, became somewhat well known in Darth Revan's Sith Empire. The Sith'ari was said to be a perfect being who would rise to power and bring balance to the Force. According to prophecy, the Sith'ari would rise up and destroy the Sith, but in the process would return to lead the Sith and make them stronger than ever before. It is believed that the prophecy of the Sith Sith'ari and the prophecies of the Jedi Chosen One refer to the same individual; namely Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, who made the Sith stronger than ever by wiping out the Jedi Knights and assisting Darth Sidious in his rise to power, but then destroyed the Sith when he betrayed and killed Sidious, thus fulfilling the ancient prophecy of the Sith'ari.

So as you can see, the Sith came up with the propechy not the Jedi.
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How can they possibly be the same thing? Darth Vader did not destroy them and THEN return to lead them and make them stronger than ever before. Sure, he killed Sidious but he most certainly never led them or made them more powerful after. Or did I miss all this?


And I still don't think that the Jedi HAD to die. That just makes no sense. They weren't evil. They weren't bad. They were the good Force users. Why in the heck would the Force want its good servants wiped out? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! And technically speaking... when Vader killed Sidious, Luke was a Jedi. So there was NEVER a time when both sides were completely wiped out. That puts a hole in the theory that the Force wanted to wipe the entire slate clean and start over, doesn't it? With free will, a person can NEVER be forced to do anything. He did not HAVE to fulfill the prophecy. And he certainly did not have to fulfill it in a specific manner (beyond killing Sidious). I simply believe that Anakin resisted doing what he was meant to do (destroy Sidious) and that all led to what happened. If he had killed him when he first found out that he was the Sith or had killed him with Mace, the Jedi would still be alive. And think about this, if the Jedi really did need to change their ways, as the Chosen One who killed the Sith, I bet Anakin could have brought about change in the Jedi Order. Do you really think they would have kicked him out for marrying Padme and fathering children after that? I think not.[/quote]
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I think that prophecy works b/c at the time Darth Maul, Asajj Ventress, Darth Maul and to a more public audience who knows nothing of the Sith, General Grievous(b/c most people would associate Lightsabers with the Jedi or Sith)were the only known Sith,no one knew at the time that Palps was indeed Darth Sideous not even the Jedi,so Yes when Maul was destroyed(not By Ani I know)Asajj Ventress,Tyrannus,and Grievous the Sith were "destroyed" in a way,Especially with Tyrannus being the most powerful "known" Sith of the bunch but when Anakin turned to the Darkside and became Darth Vader,yes he was going kill Darth Sideous being 2x as powerful(3x if he didn't lose the other arm.)and lead them to make them stronger,but even with him only being an apprentice to Darth Sideous they still lead together to make the Sith stronger than ever be4,then it works into the Jedi prophecies where he did destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force,so it works both ways if you ask me.

 

tee hee, sinister, his lack of vision... he had too many of them, i should venture to say. and who had a lack of vision? huh? yessum, a certain jedi order! good call!
and last time i checked he still loved her. he just took not being able to live without her too literally.

i like millenium teacher's post here much better, natch, as it also makes some room for circumstances. i think in your post, sinsiter you only addressed the internal, but you should see that external and internal go together.

 

So with that rationale in mind, what is the difference between one person stealing a million dollars and another who steals a million pennies?

Aren't they both thieves?

Does one thief deserve less than the other? (If you) Cut off both of their hands, you find that your and your neighbor's pennies and dollars will be a lot safer. (And more people would think twice about becoming a thief.)

We should be more like Sidious when it comes to criminals...


"Wipe them out... alll offf themmm..."


What are we talking about?

Oh...
right...
Star Wars, Criminals and the Great Flood...


Huh?


***

Ok, Ok I'll stop messin around...


As for the topic:


In their complacency, the Jedi were rotting from the inside out. For balance to be achieved, both Orders had to go down for the dirt nap.

 

SITHSTARSLAYER: Have you tried typing with all Capital letters as well? You should also underline everything too,that would be great style!!!

Anakin had to become a Sith...to save Padme. Has anyone watched this movie?
Being the Chosen One is all about saving lives and such. To rid the galaxy of the Sith, as a Sith, definitely IMPLIES SUICIDE. In other words Sithly Chosen One would have to die alongside any and all other Sith Lord(s).

Both orders did not go down, that is not "balance." Luke survived. Remember ROTJ? The ways of passing down the teachings were definitely altered after the fall of the Jedi Temple, obviously. But Luke, Luke survived.

I believe the prophecy and all foreseeing of the future is more static than being a result of a chain events. I see the chain of events as irrelevant and only the final outcome as being the "only" unchangeable truth. In other words, I believe Padme's death as imminent, whether or not Anakin succumbed to the Dark Side. I believe Anakin to be final savior of the Jedi faith, whether or not he had been trusted by Palpatine, or if he had kids or not, or if all of the Jedi survived, etc.
Like Luke's friends' pain on Cloud City, events "high-lighted" by the Force do not change. It seems like we all beleive that. But the journey and the repercussions of these foretold events is open to endless acts and interpretations.

 

Alot of you are saying that the jedi "needed" to be wiped out because they had become "dogmatic" and "narrow minded." I just dont see it. What I do see however, is alot of fans being swayed by palpatines' fancy words, seduced just like Anakin.

the jedi were arrogant, and even complacent....but those are weaknessess for exploitation, not catalysts for destruction.

Anakins' path through life was the result of choice...and not pre-determined. The decimation of the Jedi Ranks and the rise of the Sith were due to Anakin's selfish, fearful choices, and not some pre-determined period of cleansing, as many are suggesting.

To see Anakin's decision to betray and slaughter the Jedi as a noble and divine course of action, is a very naive outlook in my opinion.

 

In order to complete the prophecy he had to be a Sith. So it was ok. The jedi must've misinterpreted it's story.

 

He didnt have to become a Sith he made that choice,the prophecy was the chosen one would destroy the Sith and he did that.

 

Lord Gaydar was always a coward.

Sneaking up on the emperor was typical of him.

Give me a light saber and half a jedi training session and I would hand him his ass on a silver platter