Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. emporergerner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2005
    star 4
    Remember its up to the fans. Lucas let this fo so fans could contemplate weither Anakin was concevied of the force, or the Sith.



    Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yes, but if you continue to say we need evil and good in balance, where does evil come from?
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, June 2005.


    In the first draft, Palpatine tells Anakin that he manipulated the Midichlorians to create him. Anakin says that he's lying and Palpatine tells him to search his feelings. Lucas felt it was overkill and so he left it to be ambigious. The eu states that it was Darth Plaugeis who did it, before he died. Rick McCallum said that it's Palpatine, since that's the original intent.

    Evil isn't dependent on the Sith, just as good isn't dependent on the Jedi. Good and evil exist everywhere. It's when a great evil such as the Sith abuse the Force, by taking over the universe, that the Force goes out of balance. Evil like the Black Sun organization, the Hutt crime cartel and corrupt power figures. That form of evil will always exist. But the Sith who are the worst offenders. They cannot exist because their goals are too ambitious.
  4. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    just by some definition the sith are worst, whereas everyone else is just okayish.
  5. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    This choosen one prophncey movement is alot like a bible because Bibles forsee the future and stuff. The bible is like a legend about what had happenend in the past that was fact and it also can forsee what might happen in the future. All three of the books Torah, bible and the Koran are from my point of view one book. Each one of the three has its own legendary events and Phorphceys.

    There was a legendary fact or fiction story in 1890 a man wrote a story about the Titan which of course is the Titanic he prodected that a boat is going to hit an Iceberg and it well put the world shaking in greif. I don't remember how I got the story but it just scared the hell out of me. I think I got it from beyond Belief.

    Basically the Force is kinda like a bible that people can change the course of the future even if one knows what is going to happen. I know I might be off topic but it just fits real life sitoutions about what might happen and what may not happen at all when we talk about the Force.

    To tell you the truth this stuff really scares the Hell out of me.
  6. PyrhanaJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2003
    star 1
    ...Subsequently the Jedi Order is what it shgould be in SW:ANH. Even more hermetic and ascetic than their philosophy implied; with all dealings in secret; teachings on a true one-to-one level; the final steps of Jedi-hood being proven from within one's self; with lightsaber-dropping being the latest teqhnique. The juxtapostion of the methods of teaching Luke and Anakin the path to being a true Jedi is a fade from a dogmatic program with no individuals to a phenomenom comprised of individuals, who acheive adulthood on their own.

    Anakin's Sith-hood interrupted both concepts of the Jedi. It was also a personal decision, not the Jedi's nor the Sith's, when Anakin decided to participate in Mace's demise or to save Luke Skywalker.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In both the films and the eu, only the Sith and Dark Jedi want to rule the universe.
  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    and the jedi don't? ;)
  9. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    I disagree. Anakin did not have to become a Sith to defeat Sidious and bring balance to the Force. Many people believe it is the "will" of the Force to wipe out the Jedi. Why would the Force, if it can even be considered an intelligent force(pardon the pun), kill it's followers who choose to be one with the Force rather than abuse and use it like the Sith do? The balance to the Force was wiping out the Sith, not having Anakin and Sidious, and Obi-Wan and Yoda left as the only Force users. Why would that kind of balance be needed? The Dark Side is a perversion of the Force. It unbalances the harmonious nature that the Force exudes. The Force gave "birth" to Anakin to ensure the destruction of the Sith. Anakin was given the POTENTIAL to defeat Sidious, but it wasn't written in stone HOW he would do it. The Jedi assumed that Anakin would fulfill the prophecy by being the "poster boy Jedi", something he was DEFINITLY not.(And please spare me the quote that Lucas says he was the poster boy Jedi. Because he wasn't. He was FAR from it. Watch Episode II and III for further proof) Thats why Yoda and Mace began to believe that maybe they had misread the Prophecy. Anakin was not shaping up to be the all powerful saviour of the Jedi Order. That was a mistake they made. Anakin was not 100% destined to walk the path of the Jedi. He COULD have, but he could also walk another path and defeat Sidious(which he did as a Sith). Everything that happened to Anakin was a matter of circumstances. Things fell apart by various external forces. Sidious plotting the main thing of course. Anakin being born into slavery. Him joining the Jedi. Falling in love with Padme. The list goes on. Its what makes Anakin so tragic. The Force would not force(again pardon the pun) Anakin to live a life of suffering as a cyborg to instill balance. Anakin could have defeated Sidious as a Jedi or even not as a Jedi(not necessarily a Sith either). Anakin made choices that cost him more than he thought he would have to give. He fell to Sidious' words. The prophecy was almost not fulfilled, but Luke changed that. He helped restore his father to the original path. Many people think that Anakin HAD to kill Sidious. No matter what. Even if Luke hadn't come around, Darth Vader would have killed Sidious for some other reason or the funny, if the Jedi had not discovered Anakin, he would have killed Palpatine by accident during a pod race by running him over. Whatever the case may be, Anakin would DEFINITLY kill Sidious. I disagree with that. I think that Anakin has the POTENTIAL. Nothing more. There was a chance, yes a chance, that Anakin would not fulfill the prophecy. Ironically what saved Anakin was his love. The thing the Jedi told him to be wary of, because it led to attachment. Love is ok for Jedi, as long no attachment comes with it. It makes the scene in ROTJ all the more important, because Luke could not beat the Emperor, not without falling to the Dark Side of course. In a sense, all the Jedi can only watch the battle in baited breath as Luke confronts Darth Vader and the Emperor. Then Anakin comes back, the young Jedi who was NOT evil, but a "good man". He fulfills the prophecy with his last strength. The balance is restored, but NOT because Anakin walked the path of the Sith, but because he finally made the right choice.

    Please take into consideration that most of that is MY opinion.:)
  10. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    well, why would the force not want to wipe out its followers. it also wipes out the sith, doesn't it?

    and the jedi are just as guilty of abusing the clones as the sith are guilty of perverting the energy field thingie.

    the force might not give a toss about its users. if indeed it has a will. if it doesn't, then we are LOST, i guess. :D
  11. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    I see the Force more as this all powerful energy field. It has a sense of collective wills, but not directly an omnipotent being. If that makes sense at all.

    You might counter that with "If it's not a "person" then how can it care for the Jedi?" The reason is how the Jedi treat the Force. Its a companion, a teacher, guide, an "ally" for them. They live in harmony with the Force, while the Sith simply abuse its power to inflict pain on others. The Force is in all living things. Thus it "feels" this pain.
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Why would the Force wish to destroy the Jedi Order. I'm sure you're going to say "Because they became a decadent, archaic order and has to restart." That isn't true. Just because the rules failed Anakin, doesn't mean the rules were evil. Anakin wanted everything, while the Jedi Order say "Take nothing, but give everything."

    assuming it has a will, this will might have entailed wiping out the jedi order.

    assuming you know anything about human rights, you might be able to follow me on thinking that producing people in a factory is bad enough, employing them in your war is even worse.
    so, jedi having lost their way, being decadent etc., yes, might in effect mean the force wants the PT order dispatched.

    re: the selflessness. it's useless if you claim that selflessness *must* be giving and then force it. that's no way to teach the wisdom behind it. the selflessness isn't the wisdom. it's the ego, or ridding the self of the ego. and you cannot force these things on someone. that's arrogant.

    There are other ways of wiping out the Sith without killing every Jedi.

    that's assuming that's all there is to balancing the force.

    You might counter that with "If it's not a "person" then how can it care for the Jedi?" The reason is how the Jedi treat the Force. Its a companion, a teacher, guide, an "ally" for them. They live in harmony with the Force, while the Sith simply abuse its power to inflict pain on others. The Force is in all living things. Thus it "feels" this pain.

    so, why does the order get wiped out? if it loves the jedi so much and is omniscient?
  13. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    Well as I've already stated in my first post, all of the events that occured were not from the Force's direct control. The Force simply sets things in motion with the birth of Anakin. It gives him the potential and strength to defeat Sidious. It did not help Sidious orchestrate the fall of the Jedi Order, simply because the Force doesn't like the Jedi's rules. Are you saying the Force, if it could control everything, would help to murder all the Younglings, who have nothing to do with the rules but have the unfortunate luck of being future Jedi?
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Darth Sidious created the Clone Army to use for his own purposes. The Jedi were under the impression that one of their own created the Clone Army to be used by them. Besides, they're going to fight whether the Jedi were involved or not.
  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yes, obiwanistheone, you have explained why the jedi use the clone army. but you dance around the issue of producing people in a factory quite unsuccessfully. i don't truly care who made them. the kaminoans, the force... who ever, really. they were *made*. and they have been fed propaganda, they had their growth accelerated and they were essentially slaves of the jedi order.
    so, now which of these, since you have knowledge of human rights, is ethically wrong? ah, i guess you've spotted it yourself: all of them.

    i rest my case.
    why of course. just coz palps says something doesn't make it true.
    so, what do we have? an force field creating a prophecy? maybe. and the primary bearer of this prophecy wiping out the jedi order first and then the sith order. what does that tell us? it might or might not have been part of the whole plan.
    i think my primary support for the force wanting to wipe out the order is the order being wiped out. it seemed like a no-brainer at the time, but here i am. :D so, it makes sense and it does happen.
    so, what is now your proof that it wasn't supposed to happen?
    i'm with you, the jedi order didn't have to be dogmatic in its views, but they were, so ... they had to change that around.
    so, ask yourself, how do they teach selflessness to the spoilt brat that is anakin skywalker to you? what is their method?
    i think the method that is presented is no possessions, no attachment, no something else. (i can never properly piece this together.) in effect, if you are a member of the honorable jedi order, you are forced to have nothing. from a very young age onwards.
    and why the absolute? you can only give, if you have in my book. i don't know what it's in yours.
    okay, let's use deduction.
    theory a: obviously the jedi teachings aren't totally useless, you cannot run an order for 1000 years without knowing *something*. so, yoda and obi-wan surviving makes sense to me since they will be able to learn from what happened.
    theory b: who says wiping out the sith brings balance? that's only george, so nothing in the film actually supports that. apart from that i never liked this idea, it seemed too literal for me.
    theory c: why does it hold most weight to you? because you like it best right? and that's okay really, i run into many people who aren't as nihilistic as i am... i'm just saying, theory a, as we shall henceforth call it, is also a valid interpretation.
    and might i add, wiping out the jedi order AND the sith. not just one of them.
  16. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i think you are making it too simpe darth, of course the normal people who are evil(mnurderes,thief,rapers) are not ok but it was evident than sidious is worst than jabba or jango fett to me. what makes them worst is that they can use the force.
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    of course that is a factor. i'm just trying to get away from the double standard that somehow there is a little evil, a bit more evil and A LOT evil. and the sith being arch enemies of the jedi so they are more evil. but people who just regularly keep slaves etc are just normal evil. doesn't make much sense to me.
    what keeps civil wars alive, among other things, is that the opposing parties cannot let go of their notion that the others are somehow less human than them. so, there will never be reconciliation between the groups because both are convinced the other side is beyond reconciliation. and i personally believe that the jedi are prey to this type of propaganda as well.
  18. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i agree with you here. i dont think they are more evil or worst but certainly more dangerous


    i agree about the jedi. they would never try peace with the sith and thats not only because the sith dont want to...the jedi dont want it either
  19. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    see? :) *shakes hand enthusiastically* so, they are similar in almost every way... and how could their neverending feud be amended?

    *maybe* by having both parties wiped out.
  20. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    *shakes hand back* i agree
  21. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    and now let's get to the point of why on a human level this looks like they didn't deserve it.

    and they didn't.

    if i take my civil war analogy there, it would mean there's no hope for these guysin israel and elsewhere and i still hold hope for them. so, sigh, let's get back to square one. why did the force allow it to happen if it generally means well? and if it doesn't mean well, what does it care?
  22. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

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    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
  23. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I think the Force can influence events, but not directly interefere. Instead of having a speeder run over Palpatine, it can influence in methods through the FORCE. It can alter the midichlorians, perhaps enough to impregnante someone? It can quadruple the midichlorians in a life form to make them powerful. Powerful enough to combat the Sith. It can give people visions as it does for both Anakin and Luke. Although sadly, the visions made both freak out and rush to do things they were not meant to do. It was meant to warn them of possible futures, not to take matters into their own hands and change a "possible" future.

    Again, your last comment I would agree with if the ALL the Jedi were wiped out.

    Hope all of that helps.


    great post obi wan_is_the_one .i agree specially about how the force can influence things but not directly. is like in the prophecy..is not like the force will protect sidious with some sort of magical shield if anyone besides anakin try to kill him but the force will influence event to make sidious survive.
  24. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    Thanks. I agree with everything you said within reason. I'm not too sure about the Force helping Sidious survive until Anakin kills him. It makes one wonder. Is Anakin TRULY the only person that can kill Sidious or does he simply have the greatest potential to doing so?

    Sorry. I'm sure that last sentance was off-topic.
  25. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i meant that if lets say anakin who is not anakin tries to kill sidious then :

    1- that person would slip and impale himself [face_devil]

    2- kill him but not bring balance

    when i say the only one who can kill him i dont mean because of his powers( his powers mattered little when he kill sidious) but that he is the one meant to do it as his status of chosen one implies it :)
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