Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    Yeah thats eactly what I mean.

    Was Anakin meant to be the ONLY person who could wipe out the Sith? Or did he simply have the greatest chance at doing so?

    Your theory is also VERY interesting though. Mainly because of the scene where Mace corners Sidious and is ready to kill him.

    Although the reason I disagree is because the Force wants Sidious' death. I doubt it cares how. Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, etc.
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    maybe my ethical concerns over abortion and the death penatly fall on barren ground here as well.
    of course feeding people propaganda is fine as long as they are made to fight a war.
    what do you think happens with small palestinians? do you think suicide bombers just spring up from thin air?
    the clones don't have minds of their own, of course. otherwise they would leave this nonsense.

    why, thank you. get back to me when you have checked with any human rights org.
    no, it doesn't automatically mean the force did it. i just mean it happens. so, i can draw conclusions from there. you could make a case of survival of those who are still able to think outside the box or some such thing.
    what you do is establish a double standard of the force putting things there for them to use and then just sort of hopes things will develop as it wishes. i'm not sure if you've been getting into any of the destiny/free will debates here, there is a lot of stuff worth discussing including the notion that maybe the force doesn't give a toss about its users.
    basically you say because those two survive the order wasn't meant to be destroyed, but with equal right i could say those two were meant to survive. because that's the force's wish. do you see what i'm getting at?
    on a side note i find it continually interesting that because anakin falls i can make a case of a whole organizations concertedly failing and others make a case of an individual failing to adapt.
    i think both sides fail. considering there is such a thing as free will. which my other argument doubts. so, i don't know basically.
    you don't need anything except honour to give anything? how about a love for giving? ah well, this is going nowhere. i meant it in a metaphorical sense. i can give love even if it's not a physical object. but i need to know what it is in order to give it, just like i need to have been given love so i know what it's like to receive it, empathy.
    and on a very logical ba
  3. JASTERSLEGACEYV2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2005
    star 1
    this may seem abit not like me but here it goes: even tho anikan did fufill then super midiclorian count thing become a jedi and turn 2 the dark side he still did'nt bring balance 2 the force wich as we all no his son did then he went 2 the dark sde 4 two years (if my sources r correct) and over threw the empire (not in that order) blah blah blah, but anikan had 2 become a sith 4 luke 2 be the profacey(if u'll excuse my spelling) so he could get private yoda training, 4 the councel 2 not debate endlesly meawhile he goes 2 the darkside so yes anikan and palpatine unknowling by destroying the jedi order caused thr own doom.
  4. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
  5. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I think Anakin was only able to bring balance to the
    force by bringing balance to himself,
    that just happened to entail ridding the galaxy
    of Sidious.

    Luke is not the chosen one spoken of in the prophecy...
    It's Anakin. He is the chosen one.
    And he does what he supposed to do, just
    not in the way everyone thinks he should.

    There is a dark side of the force, yes?
    There is a light side of the force, yes?
    So then these are two aspects of the same
    animatisitc force, rather than dualistic
    forces in opposition.

    So why then does everyone assume extreme
    benevolence in the force? Perhaps
    the force and the requirements of
    force healthiness are beyond good and evil?

    The Sith and their sudden prominence drew the
    force out of balance and the force did,
    what nature does, without prejudice to
    "good" and "evil". Just like nature.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The Chosen One was there to destroy the Sith, but he let himself become tainted. Thus their main line of defense was destroyed. The Force could not interfere in matters like that.

    "The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

    In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

    Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

    --George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

    "I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999

    "The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS page 221.

    "The overriding philosophy in Episode I?and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter?is the balance between good and evil."

    --George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

    "It's not that they can't see the Dark Side coming, it's just that the Dark Side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the Dark Side grows."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "One of thematic issues here is how Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Telling how he moved to the next level, and then when you see all of the films together it will all make a lot more sense. But this is kind of a very small thematic issue that transcends all six movies as opposed to something
  7. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    sadly it may be too late now to congratulate you on this. it's cosmology.
  8. Kirk_Kanos Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Does no one actually think balance was restored in ROTS, as i see it the Jedi obviously out number the Sith hundreds to one in the start, but at the end is it not balanced,just not the way the Jedi took the prophecy to mean.

    I mean all that survives is two masters right Sidius of the Sith, and Yoda of the Jedi, are they not equal in there respective positions.

    Then Anakin and Obi Wan, are they not two both equal in their strengths.

    Just an observation, was the prophecy not fulfiled there and then, Do you not think?
  9. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    The problem with prophecy is that it is always clouded in mystery (as in detail)?Yoda knew this?and said so once the veil of the dark side had fallen in Ep.II. Ultimately, Anakin (as Vadar) did take out Sidious?fulfilling the prophecy. Such is the way of all things prophetic.

    As for Anakin having to become a Sith lord to do it, I disagree. Anakin was weak?a complete Putz. He should have known from the many years of training as a Jedi that the dark side was shadowed with deceit and trickery?for him to also turn so readily is even more proof of his weakness of character. His own prophetic vision of Padme?s death should have registered with him as uncertain as Yoda?s was of Anakin being a good addition to the Jedi order. He sold out his brother?s (and even slaughtered the defenseless younglings) out of desperation to salvage a vision as uncertain as any future is for anyone. Even worse, he believed Sidious?s lies because he was a weak coward?so willing to take the bait, as a fish charges headstrong after a lure.

    His finally destroying the Emperor in Ep.VI was the direct result of him finally coming to his senses about what had actually taken place all that long time ago?finally realizing that he?d been a pwn of the Sith Lord?s treachery, so willingly, for all those years.
  10. Kirk_Kanos Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2006
    What i think your all missing here is if the propecy was to restore balance to the force, surly this means a balance of good and evil, which was accoplished by the end of ROTS. Where as, at the end of ROTJ if good has overcome evil, where is the balance, you can't have balance without both good and evil.
  11. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Indeed, an excellent point! In Ep.I, the Jedi overwhelmingly tipped the scale; by Ep.V, the Sith did. Anakin did indeed restore balance, but the silly Jedi did not truly desire "balance"...now did they? :cool:
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    For the last time, balance is restored in ROTJ. Not ROTS. Good and evil still exist. But the Sith, who are the cause of the imbalance are wiped out.


    "The overriding philosophy in Episode I?and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter?is the balance between good and evil."

    --George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil?everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

    --George Lucas, ?The Mythology of Star Wars,? Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

    "One of thematic issues here is how Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Telling how he moved to the next level, and then when you see all of the films together it will all make a lot more sense. But this is kind of a very small thematic issue that transcends all six movies as opposed to something that's actually neatly tied up in this particular movie alone. Step one is that Palpatine becomes Chancellor, and you'll see in Episode II that he then makes another step (Emergency Powers), and in Episode III he makes another step (Emperor)."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD commentary

    "It's not that they can't see the Dark Side coming, it's just that the Dark Side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the Dark Side grows."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    "I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999

    "The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221



    In conclusion, the Sith cause the imbalance by ruling the galaxy and wiping out the Jedi. Balance is restored when good and evil are put back into balance. This happens when Anakin chuks Palpatine down a reactor shaft and then takes the big dirtnap himself.
  13. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    darth-sinister is correct. The balance to the Force was NOT in ROTS, it was in ROTJ. If it had been in ROTS, don't you think it would be mentioned that the all powerful prophecy has finally been fulfilled?

    Also, that would take away from the scene in ROTJ when Anakin chucks the Emperor down the shaft. It wouldn't mean anything since the Force had been brought to balance.
  14. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Not too mention that it would grind Yoda's "Pass on what you have learned" to Luke into oblivion, or the shot of the Jedi Temple at the end of the movie - or even Luke's "I'm a Jedi" moment. All null and void because of this weird "the force doesn't want Jedi around" theory.

  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i think no one said the balance was achieved in rots. i just posed destroying the jedi order might have been part of the balance bringing.
  16. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    The only room for manouver here is to consider that you are coming this from the wrong angle.

    The prophecy speaks of a Chosen One being born who will bring balance to the Force.
    As Sinister points out - that balance is most definitely brought by destroying the Sith in ROTJ.

    My personal opinion is that Anakin's choices are what takes him to the Dark Side, I don't think it was always "destined" to happen.
    However, if you want to argue the case - we are not really discussing "balance being brought", we are simply discussing whether Anakin was meant to turn to the Dark Side, which is really a separate issue.
    IE: Were things always destined to get a whole lot worse before they got any better?
    I'm not suggesting the dark times are part of the whole "bringing balance", but that does not mean that they cannot be another facet of the prophecy itself.

    It's not too much of a stretch - it was hinted that the Dark Times were a pre-requisite of the Prophecy in one of the scenes cut from AOTC:

    INTERIOR: JEDI TEMPLE, CORRIDOR - NIGHT

    MACE WINDU and YODA walk down the long hallway, silhouetted by a lit room at the end.

    MACE WINDU: "Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?"

    YODA: "Masking the future, is this disturbance in the Force."

    MACE WINDU: "The prophecy is coming true, the Dark Side is growing."

    YODA: "And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future."

    MACE WINDU: "It's been ten years, and the Sith still have yet to show themselves."

    YODA: "...Out there, they are. A certainty that is."

    There is a long silence as they walk away. Only footsteps are heard.


    And a scene from ROTS's second draft mentioned briefly in the Making of Book.
    In it Yoda speaks with Qui-Gon Jinn on Kashyyyk and asks him how the Jedi Order will die. Qui-Gon cannot answer because the shroud of the Dark Side prevents him seeing.
    It kind of implies that Yoda is resigned to the fact that the Jedi Order is destined to "die" (and the conversation fell before Order 66 was given in the script).

    Like I said - I'm purely playing devil's advocate here.
    I stress again, personally, I don't think Anakin was supposed to turn to fulfil the criteria of the Prophecy at all.
    But I don't deny that it's out there to discuss - could it have been fulfilled if he didn't turn? Because we can only prove that the events we did see throughout the saga brought us to the point we reach in ROTJ.
    We can only really prove that the Prophecy can be fulfilled after Anakin turns, because that is what we saw happen.
    We can't prove that it could have happened any way other than that which we saw... if you get what I mean.

    :)
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    who? me? and why is it a wrong angle?
    yes, it's part of it.
    it *might* not be a seperate issue that he turns to the dark side. if he's an instrument of the force who will do what he has to do no matter what and the force does not give a toss about what will happen to its users, it *might* very well be part of the scheme that he turns to the dark side, things get a helluva lot worse before they get a helluva lot better etc etc.

    not saying this is the only possible interpretation, just saying it's there and i can make it a case.
    oh, okay, so you're with me? great.
    okay, yippie!!!
    that's basically the strongest support of it, isn't it? that it was fulfilled this way.
    what is troublesome about it, is that it negates this funny notion of free will etc
    and the other thing: ask yourself, could anakin being anakin really have chosen differently?
  18. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    No, no, no - by "you" I meant everyone, in a general sense.
    And the "wrong angle" I was refering to was implying that the premise behind "Anakin had to become a Sith" was in some way related to bringing balance.
    It doesn't have to be, necessarily.
    But I didn't mean to say you, in particualr, were saying that.
    Just that this issue of balance is the general vibe this thread gives out.

    I think this is the view I favour:
    The Prophecy speaks of balance being restored.
    It therefore also implies imbalance occuring.
    As the Dark Side grows dominant, so too the child of the Force grows towards his destiny.
    The Jedi are out there trying to shepherd the will of the Force - the Sith are out there trying to abuse the Force and disrgard it's will.

    With this tug of war going on, it is up to circumstances to govern the outcome of this prophecy.
    It just so happens that the Sith find a way to screw the pattern up - they take the agent of the Force which exists to restore balance and get him all tied up in the process of creating imbalance itself.
    In effect, the Sith do not only put some extra weights in their side of the scales, they actually take the biggest weight out of the Light Side's pan and pop it in their own.
    That throws everything to hell...

    Not necessarily, but there's nothing wrong with what your saying.
    I don't disagree with the idea set out by this thread.
    But I'm not sure I agree with it exactly either.

    When you look at it from that angle.
    Anakin's destiny was to bring balance.
    He did that in the end, and part of that journey was that he became a Sith.
    So it was all important.
    Mind you, Lucas says Anakin turns his back on his destiny...
    So the flipside is that the years spent as a Sith were just a delay.
    They weren't part of the Prophecy, the Prophecy was just on hold, waiting for Anakin to get back on track.

    I like to think he could have, and should have.
  19. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    'k. just making sure.
    i think the first part is pure logic. so, yeah, balance is something that has imbalance as a prerequisite.
    i would argue, that the jedi aren't listening and shepherding (i'd be interested in what that means in practise) the force's will. coz if you follow my theory (well, not mine exactly) it means that the jedi are partly responsible for the imbalance. hasn't figured in your view so far, so maybe you'd like to say something about it.


    to me it looks like both parties claim they have the only right to the force and therefore both sides imbalance it. and maybe you'd ask yourself how the sith just somehow find a way to screw the pattern up. simply because the jedi are too gullible? or *nice*?

    that's good enough, get in gear. :D
    yeah, that's the other possibility. somehow, from a human perspective it seems much more appealing. from a cosmological view, it's just quite possible the force arranged it this way.
    it *would* be so much nicer if we had free will and could choose our destiny and had a choice. and it would also be so much nicer if you could say it was all anakin's fault as that is the easy way out of the circumstances which also contribute to him being him.

    in the end, well, i'm not sure i could easily say he being him could have chosen otherwise. it's not that it's absolutely impossible, just seen from my perspective, it would have been an odd choice, suddenly renouncing his responsibility to care for those he loves.

  20. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006

    Your argument here is hypocritical?and the ?proof? you provide from Lucas actually counters your own assessment. The conflict, thus, negates your point entirely.

    Again.

    Instead of reinforcing your point, this actually shows how the Jedi do not actually want true balance...as balance counters their ability to monopolize control of the force...which actually adds validity to the point Kirk_Kanos proposed, and I agreed with.

    THIS, is exactly what I was saying about Ep.V

    Peace, yes, but balance...no!

    I agree that the Sith begin creating the imbalance in Ep.III by destroying the Jedi order...and later DO by forming the galactic empire, but strongly disagree that the death of both the Emperor AND Vadar restores the balance between good and evil...it is illogical, and merely conjecture. It is also one of Lucus?s greatest failings in the creation of this saga.
  21. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    Natas.

    One does NOT have to be a Sith in order to be evil.

    Everything Sinister has posted is correct, and in line with Lucas' statements on the matter.

    Balance is restored.
    The Sith are gone.
    Evil still exists.


    And it's not nice to call a person a hypocrite, you know... ;)


    -JR :)
  22. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5

    This is the problem. It's not about restoring the balance between good and evil. That's not what Lucas says, and that's not what is said in the films. This is our denotative meaning of the word "balance" getting in the way of what is actually happening. It goes like this. The Sith are a cancer on the force, and as long as they are around, the force is out of balance. Nothing necessarily to do with good and evil, but that's just it.

    Sith=No Balance in the force
    No Sith=Balance to the force

    This equation is it. That's what the saga is about. Whether it makes sense to you or not is completely irrelevent. If it seems illogical...well, it is. But it's the rule that Lucas created for his universe. It flies in the face of what we usually think of as "balance," but that's because we are assuming that a balance force has the same good guys as bad guys, which is clearly NOT what it means.
  23. Bend_Ovi_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Blue = One view

    Red = Contradicting View

    As you can plainly see, the 'balance' of the force is a contradiction to wiping out evil from the galaxy.

    How can GL both say that evil being wiped out brings balance while also saying that good and evil must both exist?

    How can he say that Qui-Gon is obviously wrong, while also stating that he is correct?

    You cannot trust Lucas, even he is confused as to this matter of the prophecy and the idea of balance of the force.
  24. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> As you can plainly see, the 'balance' of the force is a contradiction to wiping out evil from the galaxy. How can GL both say that evil being wiped out brings balance while also saying that good and evil must both exist?

    Evil is NOT wiped out.

    The SITH are.

    There are still a whole bunch of evil people in the GFFA, but they are not Force users.


    -JR :)
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The Force exists in everyone. But only the Jedi and the Sith can use it. There are those who are good and evil, aside from the Jedi and Sith. Examples of good are the Alliance, Dexter Jester, the Gungans, the Wookiees. Then there is evil. The Hutts, the Trade Federation, Sebulba. Good and evil has existed for many years in the GFFA. The Jedi were around for 25,000 years. The Sith were around for a lot less a time period. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi have never abused their powers like the Sith have. They have served as the guardians of the peace. Thus balance is achieved. But then the Sith broke new ground. The Dark Lord became Emperor and in doing so, he brought the Force out of balance. It'd be the same thing if the Jedi ruled the Republic. A Force user cannot rule the galaxy. The Sith are the worst offenders of evil. Only through their death is balance restored. Evil will always exist, but the Sith cannot exist or the Force will go out of balance again. The Hutts do not wish to rule the galaxy. Just the worlds that they control. That is fine. But Darth Sidious being Emperor of the galaxy cannot be allowed. The Force doesn't want it and if it happens, then the Force is brought out of balance.

    The Jedi can sense the Dark Side, but it's everywhere. It's hard to find it in one man, who is hiding from the Jedi. Not even Qui-gon Jinn can see the Sith from where he is. Nor can Yoda or Obi-wan. It isn't until Palpatine stops hiding that they can finally see him.
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