Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. Bend_Ovi_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Balance = A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces.

    Because I will probably have to explain this, Balance means the above. In this statement, cancellation does not mean elimination. It means cancelled by contrast. This is obvious by the inclusion of words like equilibrium and parity.

    How would you argue that the non-force using evil beings are an equal opposing force to the force using Jedi? Only the Sith are an equal opposing force to the Jedi.

    Either Lucas is using the term balance without understanding it's meaning, or he's just confused as I stated earlier.

    With the Sith wipedout, the force is in a state of disproportion. There is no equal opposing force to counter the Jedi. Therefore it seems that Vader first brought balance by becoming a Sith and helping wipeout the Jedi (Leaving a msater and apprentice for both sides) and then brought it again into disproportion by eliminating the Sith.

    Real world example: During the Cold War, there was a balance between the superpowers. Once Russia crumbled, it left a void. The United States has now become the overwhelmingly powerful state, causing the world powers to become disproportionate.

    Have you ever heard of the term 'mutually assured destruction'? This is a form of balance. It is argued that without this concept, nuclear war would be a more viable option.

    Another real world example: When the Americans were the only ones with The Bomb there was a gross imbalance in world military power. Now that other countries have The Bomb, there is an uneasy balance.

    So now that there are no Sith to present an equal and opposing force to the Jedi, the force is out of balance again.

    It is time for all you naysayers to concede.



  2. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Agreed
    I disagree, and I?ve already concisely posted as to why I think so. Please read my previous post again, as I don?t like repeating myself?it will probably save another 178 pages on this thread I think.
    Agreed, and yes, I do know; I didn?t...next time, please have the courtesy to read what I actually write instead of trying to start trouble though your lack of comprehension. What I said was, "Your argument is hypocritical..."
    I disagree, the problem (as you put it) is that you aren?t keeping up with the discussion.
    Lucas say?s himself in the quote of sinister?s that I?ve again provided here that both sides of the force need to exist. No Sith = no balance?period.
    Does anyone else want to jump in here and try to make this whole convoluted thread even more so. I just don?t get it with you all?I?m totally right, and you all seem to want to just tacitly agree with each other on the most rudimentary, fundamentally flawed concepts of such an interesting topic. Should I conform to the herd mentality of these VV guys and just agree with every confounding thing I read on these boards from now on?
    I?m actually beginning to become very disappointed with this forum?I mean, I almost live, breathe, and dream about Star Wars constantly?watch all 6 movies frequenly, have many of the really exotic collectible stuff from not only the original 3, but many of the ones from the last 3 as well. Am I truly the biggest Star Wars fan in the entire place? This stuff is really important to discuss?I thought that was what these forums were all about.
  3. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    You need to re-think the way you're coming at this, Natas, as right now you're coming off rude, aggressive and a bit inflammatory. I figure you know your way around these forums, if not by your current name, then another. Either way, chill on the remarks that put people on the defensive and get out of attack mode please.

    Or, if you like it shorter:

    Chill out.
  4. Bend_Ovi_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Who thinks Natas is a sock?
  5. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    natas, maybe i could direct you to a saga thread dealing with the topic in a more shallwesay sophisticated manner?

    balance of the force
  6. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Understood, but I'm trying to be polite. It's a discussion, and it doesn't seem like people are being very open minded...rather the latter...and jumping both on the bandwagon and my opinions.

    I have NEVER been to these forums as a member before...only visited a few times before I joined to look around. It seemed interesting, and I had thought that fresh perspectives would be more welcome. Seriously, I'm not even the one who brought about this current direction of the topic. I think there is a very strong liklihood that I'm being unfairly descriminated against because I disagree with the viewpoint of a moderator here who's opinion everyone else seems to want to blindly accept. I won't actually state why that might be, but it certainly isn't much of a discussion if everyone prescribes to the same opinion.
  7. Kirk_Kanos Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2006
    No B O obi I cant say I can call him a sock as he has just backed up what I said and proved it through Darth_Sinsters own GL qoutes, WITHOUT THE SITH THERE CAN BE NO BALANCE, simple
  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    don't worry, natas, sinister tries to shoot people with GL quotes all the time :p

    jump over to saga, if you like.

    i get your drift with the sith needed. my view is more like have both orders dispatched and start anew.
  9. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Thanks a lot for showing me that saga thread, but I started looking around on it, and it was waaaaaay out there. They are using their imagination just a little too much it seems about these movies. I mean, they are just movies...as in science fiction. I like sci fi a lot, but in the case of Star Wars, it's pretty much all in the movies. At least that's JMHO.

    I think some people tend to just go overboard with it, but to each their own.
  10. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    There is more than one place in the story where Anakin
    has the chance to fulfill his destiny without falling.

    He chooses not to.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    well, you can always make up your own or bring them back on track, heh? just a suggestion. if you have an argument that's valid, bring it forth. we actually sometimes indugle in exchanging opinion. :D

    and is it just me or is your use of yellow hurting the eye? :p
  12. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Sith are evil
    Then all evil creatures/humans are evil
    Thus, when Lucas says that the Sith are evil and need to be destroyed to restore balance to the force, he means all evil must be destroyed, right? o_O

    NO!:oops:

    Spot the logical fallacy!

    Again, Lucas clearly says the destruction of the Sith, not of all evil, is what will bring balance to the force. People are taking the word "balance" WAAAAAAAAAY too literally and completely ignoring the concept of artistic license.
  13. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Lucas says that the Sith push the Force out of balance as the dark side grows stronger. Balance does not refer to an equal amount of good and evil.

    Its similar to a balanced diet. You aren't supposed to eat an equal amount of healthy and unhealthy foods. A balanced diet means you're eating the correct variety of nutrients- while consuming minimal, if any junk food. In a similar fashion, balance to the Force means the Sith (the primary perpetrators of evil) are destroyed. The Force is balanced because evil isn't as dominant. The galaxy is in a more natural and harmonious without the Sith.
  14. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Balance, in this case, means harmony.
    Equilibrium.
    Not - two Jedi sat on one pan of a set of weighing scales and two Sith sat in the other.

    Even if Lucas hadn't been kind enough to explain this on several occasions, it is still pretty evident what is going on in the films themselves.
  15. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    I agree with you, GIG

    Harmony between the light and dark side of the Force.

    The Sith are twisting and abusing the dark side of the Force
    and therefore must be destroyed.

    As the last Jedi, Luke will work in harmony with the Force.
  16. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    It's interesting, because in Lucas' earlier SW drafts the Force was split into the Ashla (light side) and the Bogan (dark side).
    In that version of the script, Lucas highlighted the fact that the Jedi and the Sith both used both facets of the Force.
    The Ashla gave knowledge and enlightenment, but the Jedi also had to call on the Bogan to move rocks and perform physical tasks etc.
    So the Jedi used the dark side too.

    This eventually, along with much of the script, was simplified for obvious reasons, but it still resonates throughout the saga (see: Anakin knowing his frivolous use of Force powers to manipulate fruit would be frowned upon by his Masters).
    It does tie in with this idea that Dark and Light can co-exist, but it is the Sith themselves which are the problem because they are tipping the balance of light and dark.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    There's a push-pull tension created by all that is good and all that is evil. But the Sith seek to upset that balance, by ruling the galaxy. To restore that tension, the Sith have to be eliminated. They're like a cancerous, parasite. They will continue to corrupt the Force with their continued existence. By purging the Sith, as the will of the Force dictates, can balance be restored. Anakin was destined to restore that balance by killing the Dark Lord of the Sith and his Apprentice. Then and only then, would balance be achieved.

    Look at a level scale. On one side is good. On the other side is evil. Both sides have an equal amount of good and evil. Now, what happens if you add or subtract from the scale? It will no longer be balanced. In this case, the Sith add an enormous amount of evil to the scale. This happens when they take over the Republic and turn it into an Empire. What Anakin does is eliminate himself and Palpatine from the equation. In doing so, the excess weight has been removed and the scale's back in balance. Good and evil are on equal footing once again. There are peacekeepers and there are criminals. So long as it remains this way, then things are fine. If the Sith were to return and try to rule again, then the Force would go out of balance and another Chosen One would be needed.
  18. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    On one side is good. On the other side is evil. Both sides have an equal amount of good and evil. Now, what happens if you add or subtract from the scale?


    Now, if that is true that the imbalance is that profound by the power of one Sith Lord - in this case Sidious - then the Dark Side is exponentially much more powerful than the Light Side in terms of the physical universe on the potential power scale.

    Unless of course that it was the Force's intent to start over with things anew...

    ....which I have the tendency to believe.

    There also really is no equivalency between the good and the evil in the Old Republic either, because there were thousands of Jedi controlling the galaxy without much trouble from the Dark Side for a thousand of years. There was an overabundance of the Light Side, if one can see it from the other direction.

    In your 'push-pull' scenario, it would seem that there would be the push of force users on the Dark Side that would be equivalent to that which exists on the Light Side.

    Such does not exist when there is only Jedi and no other type of force user.

    So, this 'balance' thing in the SW universe really makes little sense to begin with.
  19. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    But you are equating an abundance of Jedi with the "an abundance of light side".
    The Jedi just live in harmony with the Force, they do not seek to control it and inflict their will upon it.
    While the Jedi exist, their is still corruption and evil happening throughout the galaxy - that is not the imbalance.
    It is just a natural manifestation of evil.

    Remember, the Force is in everything - it surrounds and binds the galaxy together.
    It is not just about just about Jedi and Sith - they are just practitioners of the Force.
    The Jedi teachings work in harmony with the will of the Force.
    The Sith seek to command it and bend that will to their own vision.
    That is the imbalance - that corruption of the Force.
  20. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    so what the jedi do, when they use the force is not not bending it to their will? *blinks* they simply allow things to happen? they do not control it? well, what do they do with it?
  21. Darth_Infernous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2005
    star 1
    Anakin was always going to be a Sith because it was his destiny
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yeah well, that's been sorta my argument. maybe it was destined that way. and the strongest support is that it actually happened that way.
  23. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> Anakin was always going to be a Sith because it was his destiny

    No.

    It was Anakin's destiny to rid the Galalxy of the Sith and to bring balance to the Force.

    HOW he did that, was his choice.

    He chose the dark side.


    It is the choices that we make, which define our lives....


    -JR :)
  24. Kirk_Kanos Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Alot of people had made this point, just pulled up this one quote for example, for no other reason that it is simple and clear to what people have been saying, My whole earlier statements about there having to be both the Sith and the Jedi for Balance, I still very much agree with, this has not changed my mind.

    Reasons for saying so are to me clear right there is good and bad in all living things, this we know through or own life experiences aswell, the Sith are what we can concieve as Pure evil, the Jedi can then as there oppisite be concieved as the true lawful pure good, therefore, for pure balance both must exist they cancel one another out, without one or the other the Balance tips in favour to the opposing, ie. without the Sith to the good side, Without the Jedi the Dark side, so to me either both has to exist or neither exist and both be wiped out for true balance, whould it not be fair to say that without either there would be balance, is that not the way it is in RL.
  25. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    I completely agree with this, except that Anakin was never lawful good...more true neutral...which is why Yoda was concerned about his allegiance from the start. This is another reason considering him an "angel" is ridiculous. If you think about it, Ep.VI was titled, Return of the Jedi, because Luke became a Jedi. Ben had already died, Yoda died...and when Vadar killed Sidious...and then died himself, that left only Luke. The only way true balance could then be restored would be through either Luke dying or another Sith to exist. Perhaps we'll see which it is if there is ever an Ep.VII
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