Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    once again: that's a human perspective. but there is such a thing as a cosmological perspective. the idea he had a choice is fine and well. a lot of people have it. but it's not *entirely* off to think he was supposed to become a sith. just give me a reason other than i like it better that he had a choice and i'll shut up.

    and no, i don't care what george has to say on the matter. he confuses me anyways.

    on other points here: being good is a struggle. and it's not always clear what being good means put into action. from a cosmological pov it may be *good* to have the jedi *and* the sith* wiped out because it means the force users can start with a clean slate. from our perspective having a whole group of people wiped out seems *wrong*. that's the distinction.

    i can assure everyone here that i do not advocate genocide in any way, but we deal with myth and the little thing called destiny here.
  2. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, okay - what I would say to that is this:

    How does intent play a part?
    What happens to the man who does not read the bible; never went to church; but still - by pure coincidence - lives as a model "Christian".
    The nicest, kindest, most selfless and generous person you could ever wish to meet.
    According to the bible this man may, technically, go to hell having not acknoweldged and worshipped the one true God.

    Now, sorry for using that as an example - I don't want to get this derailed on a debate about real life religions.
    But in SW, we are told, compassion conquers darkness.
    Surely compassion can only be measured by intent - not action.
    Palpatine can save Anakin's life, maybe even show genuine concern - but, ultimately his concern is that his prize his damaged; and his intent is to use Anakin to dominate the galaxy.

    The Sith's evil - the cause of the imbalance - is not so much in what they do, but in why they do it.
    What their intentions are, and what is driving them.
    A Jedi can and will use and manipulate the Force - but only to restore balance.

    This story from the first issue of SW Tales, this page in particular, kind of sums up my take on the will of the Force and why the Jedi are sometimes called on to act and, even, kill...

    [image=http://img429.imageshack.us/img429/5634/tales01124vo.jpg]

    The Jedi, even when manipulating the Force, can still be acting out its will - so long as they are constantly listening to that will and letting it govern their actions.
    It can seem like a contradiction, but it makes sense to me.
    In a galaxy where the "evil" actions - intentional or otherwise - of individuals can disrupt the Force, the Jedi are sometimes called upon to manipulate the Force to restore its will.
    As long as that is their intention, then it is a different kettle of fish to the Sith inflicting their selfish vision on the Force.

    Love your new sig, by the way.
    The sunshine boards - LOL...
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i'm not sure what you wanted with your tangent about real life religions, so i'll just ignore it and get to the juicy bits here:
    well, i'm not so sure you can split intent from action so severely. they *should* form a unit in my book. it goes together.
    which is why i wrote this bit about the uncertainty of actions and how in a grander scheme of things we cannot always be sure of how good we do. we can try and we must absolutely not rest on old feats to justify inaction. the road to hell is paved with good intentions springs to mind.
    would you be able to count the many times you did something with the absolute best intentions and it still didn't work?

    let's put it this way, if all of sid's concern was focused on anakin's well-being in order to rule the galaxy, he would still focus on his well-being, right. so, it's not all bad.
    i know this is bloody relativism.
    nono, it makes sense to me, too. which is why i called your statement into question.
    you see, to me it looks like a lot of people (not really you in particklar) run around and say all the jedi did was good, no abuse, no exploitation, no nothing. while i generally have a problem with that statement i also think in very general terms, it's a problem of logic. you can only give what was once in your possession. you can only control and obey what you know and listen to. there's no way (to my logic) to say, all the jedi did was give and give and give and never once did they use. because it makes no sense.
    they used the force and listened to it, too. nothing wrong with it.
    what i could go with is that the jedi were rather passive and the sith more active. that seems to make a lot of sense. and my idea of balance is still that you need both activity and passivity to get along.
    well, i'm not sure i subscribe to the jedi not being part of the cause for the imbalance as well. i guess that's our major difference.

    thank you for taking the trouble to do the scan. it's really kind of my idea of living. that you both give and take. you gotta ensure your survival as much as you must be able to also care about others.
    tee hee. yeah. [face_blush]
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But see here's the thing. The Jedi were created by those who studied the Force and chose to follow it's will. They would not abuse the Force by being selfish, greedy, power hungry, hate filled, vengeful monsters. They were using their powers to protect the galaxy from evil. They were guarding the peace. They were working alongside the Senate to forge a new future for the galaxy. The Jedi and the Republic formed a symbiant circle. Then came there came a time when a Jedi discovered the power of the Dark Side. He felt that the Jedi should be masters of the galaxy, rather than it's servents. The Jedi were in conflict over this. A number of Jedi agreed with this Dark Jedi, while the others didn't. These Dark Jedi broke away and became the Sith. This lead to the war between the Jedi and Sith. A war that would last many years. Around this time, it is believed, that the prophecy of the Chosen One came about. That in a time of great darkness and despair, there would come a savior. And he shall be known as the Son of Suns. The Chosen One would then bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.

    Eventually the Sith managed to enslave a section of the galaxy and forged their Empire. The Jedi and the Republic of that era went after the Sith, while the Sith fought amongest themselves. In the end, the Sith were nearly wiped out save for Darth Bane. This lead Bane to reorganize things and prepare for their comeback. Meantime, the Jedi lived in harmony with the unified Republic. Darth Sidious had killed Darth Plagueis and began his rise to power. In doing so, he was going against the will of the Force. He was seeking to use the Force for personal gain and he would succeed unless he was opposed. This time he would control the entire Republic and wipe out the Jedi. He would create a massive war that would eliminate many Jedi, before using his own private army to eliminate the last of the Jedi. Greed, chaos, death, war and evil would rule the galaxy. The Jedi, who had spent many years serving the Force, would be destroyed in the conflict. Enter the Chosen One.

    Anakin Skywalker is either the creation of the Sith or the Force. Either way, he has been chosen by the Force to end the tyranny of the Sith. Unfortunately, Palpatine got his claws into Anakin and twisted him to the Dark Side. Anakin made many mistakes and ultimately damned himself and everyone else. But through the love and compassion of his son, Luke, did Anakin come back from the Dark Side and destroyed the Sith Order. Luke would carry on the traditions of the Jedi Order, by rebuilding the Jedi Order and once again, serving as it's guardians of the peace and justice.

    It's the Force that wants the Sith wiped out. The Jedi are following it's will. What was misread in the prophecy was that Anakin had to be a Jedi to wipe out the Sith. Much less had to be a Sith Lord either. All he had to do was destroy the Sith. He turned because he refused to let go of his attachments. He has a destiny and that is to kill Sidious. He can choose to follow it or not. He chose to run from it for 24 years, until Luke made him choose again.
  5. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    but you see, there was no tyranny of the sith when he was born or was there?
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Which is why the Sith could've created him. Either way, the Force was aware of a point in time in which Anakin would destroy the Sith. This time comes in ROTS, when Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin and he whips out his Lightsaber to kill him. Anakin would've killed him had he not been so attached to Padme. This leads to Anakin's second chance when Mace and Palpatine are in their struggle. And again, Anakin makes the wrong choice. Finally, Luke gives him the final chance to get it right. Third time is the charm.

    The Sith were there and were beginning to rise up in power. Palpatine was a Senator and beginning to consolidate his power, which would result in his becoming Chancellor. If the Force created Anakin, it was to destroy Sidious before he could cement his position.
  7. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    IMHO I don?t think it?s possible to remove choice from Anakin?s destiny,

    But let?s try this for a ?cosmological perspective?:

    Anakin cannot escape his "ultimate destiny", but his "temporal fate" is malleable depending on his decisions.

    Anakin did not have his ?temporary fate? of becoming a Sith imposed upon him*, he chose it.
    Palpatine manipulated Anakin?s weaknesses (fear of loss, obsessive love), into tricking him to choose to become a Sith in order to serve his own desires.

    By participating in his destiny, Anakin shaped his Sith fate.

    He was not able to change his ultimate destiny however; but that was no trick.
    The veil of the dark side lifted, and compassion ruled Anakin?s choice.


    *There is more than one place in the story where Anakin
    has the chance to fulfill his destiny without falling.
  8. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    This is where I think you allow your imagination to superimpose over what actually goes on in the films. Though I will admit that Anakin?s conception is somewhat of an immaculate conception sort of ?miracle,? all the other Jedi are created like most other multi-celled organisms are?by other like organisms through traditional methods. The force apparently, from the films, flows through all living things?but those who have the midiclorian counts to possess ability beyond that of others are adopted into the order of the Jedi. Many of the Sith in the films (including Vadar) were trained by the Jedi, but basically defected. Therefore, I think it is a bit of stretch to claim that ?They would not abuse the Force by being selfish, greedy, power hungry, hate filled, vengeful monsters.??because they sometimes do. In a nutshell, it is the classical biblical cain and able analogy.
    Furthermore, you associate the Sith and the Force in a contrasting way that I find rather inappropriate. It is not the Force which is in opposition to the Sith?it is the Jedi. The Sith use the force as well as the Jedi do; it is not appropriate to try to misalign these associations in a vain attempt to confound the subject so. True, the dark side of the FORCE is a little different from the other, but it is all the same thing. To claim that the force has a will to destroy part of itself makes no sense.
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    That's simply not true.
    In the films we learn of only two Jedi who have left the Jedi order.
    Both of those were turned to the Dark Side of the Force by Darth Sidious.
    AOTC originally explained how only 20 Jedi had left the order (including Dooku) in over 1,00 years of peace and harmony.
    Lucas himself has explained that Sidious only chose to convert Dooku, rather than train a new pupil as he should have done as a quick fix, because the death of Maul was a setback.
    So only two Sith in 1,000 years have originally been trained as Jedi, not "many".
    Those two were an exception to an established tradition of Sith practice.

    Only Sidious was inclined, and able, to convert Jedi.
    They were seduced by Sidious - until then they were not Sith, and were doing little to upset the balance of the Force.

    "Where the Jedi gained power through understanding, the Sith gain understanding through power."
    The Force is just a means to an end.
    The kind of people who become Sith are just on a quest for power - for control.
    In essence, they would carry out this quest regardless - knowledge of the Force is just a way of achieving this goal.
    Either way, they are throwing the Force out of balance through their intentions.

    But the Sith use their understanding of the Force to gain power - they use the Force selfishly.
    The Jedi use their power (or should use their power) to gain understanding and enlightenment.
    They are selfless and seek to create harmony.

    I think the distinction has already been made, that it is not about the Force destroying part of itself - it is simply about bringing harmony - which just happens, it turns out, to entail destroying the Sith, because they happen to be the ones upsetting the balance.
    The Dark Side and Light Side will always exist, irrespective of the Jedi and Sith - it is present in all living things.

    I think it is possible to make this far too complicated.
    In plotting terms, the Sith are just a token for the unpleasant aspects of the human psyche - greed, lust, fear, anger, aggression, oppression.
    It's that simple.
    The message is that the world would be a better place without those things - in a GFFA that is made literally so, just to drive the point home.
    These things really affect the whole fabric of the galaxy via the Sith, and it is desirable to reach a state where these things don't exist.

    It is not a science - it is just a fable.
    In life, don't be a Sith - be a Jedi.
    All ROTS does is show us how bad people can actually come to represent the status quo - like Caeser; like Hitler.
    Evil is just a point of view, yadda yadda.
    But I don't think Lucas is trying to say "hey, maybe these evil people are alright, essentially"
    He is just saying "be wary of that fine dividing line - make sure you are a true Jedi - not a Sith. A Sith is not something to be."
    It's not reality - it's just a film with a simple message, which is why it may seem not to add up if you start applying unneccsary degrees of logic to all of this...
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's not imagination. It's what Lucas said happened. Don't make assumptions.

    Except the Jedi raise the children to not be that way. That's why they train from birth. Lucas even said if Anakin were found right away, none of this would happen as they would raise him right. The Sith came about because one Jedi discovered the Dark Side and choose to use the Force incorrectly. Others were seduced by power and their own greed. Training from birth was a result of nipping this problem in the bud.

    The Sith violate the Force with their actions. They're like a cancer. What do you do to cancer? You eradicate it to save the host. The Force is the host. The Sith are the cancer. The Jedi are the whiteblood cells. Anakin is the cure. Anakin purges the cancer to save the host and Luke will revive the whiteblood cells.

    When Darth Bane escaped the Battle of Russan, he opted to find one Apprentice who he trained from birth. When Bane died, the Apprentice became the Master and took an Apprentice for his own. Also from birth. This continued well into the time of Darth Sidious, who was already training Darth Maul from birth, when he killed Darth Plaugeis. Sidious lost Maul and because of this, he needed to turn someone. Enter Dooku who was willing to turn to the Dark Side. From Darth Tyranus to Darth Vader, Sidious needed to pit the two against each other in a contest he rigged. Unlike Dooku who would go willingly, Anakin had to be seduced into going against the Jedi teachings and his mother's upbringing. In the thousand years from the time of Darth Bane to the time of Darth Sidious, all Sith were trained from birth. Just like the Jedi were.

  11. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    I understand the whole concept of disciplines being instilled in the very young to reinforce the strengths of their convictions. We have no disagreement there. However, Lucas created the storyline, so using him as an example of how Anakin might not have turned is sort of pointless. Whether or not you realize it, you are implying here that the dark side of the force is so seductive, that it is somehow necessary for Jedi to be indoctrinated at an early age to keep them from being corrupted by its overwhelming attraction in the future. Also, referring to the dark side of the force as the force being used ?incorrectly? is a biased argument. I understand why you are taking that position, but in order for this discussion to be considered objectively, it would probably be best to refrain from trying to stack the deck in your favor?so to speak.
    This too is a biased position on your own interpretation of what is and what is not the force. The force is the force?it is not some sort of all consuming goodness?otherwise, the Sith would not be able to use it, being that they are evil. Don?t you see?
    The history lesson on the Sith wasn?t really necessary; I?ve seen the movies. I?ve highlighted the?well, highlights. One of the foundations of your position is that the Sith and Jedi both train their disciples from birth?and the importance of that has already been discussed. However, the flaw in your argument is Dooku; was he not trained from birth?was he not once the padawan of Yoda himself? Additionally, so if as you say, ?Anakin had to be seduced against the Jedi teachings,? but was not raised from birth, why then is it that Dooku (who was) so easily turned? It is not a convincing argument?clearly, the force is the force and both the Sith and the Jedi use the same force. I argue that the only thing that keeps more Jedi from adopting the dark side is their order?s efforts to keep them from doing so. Likewise, the Sith also try to bias their disciples to keep them from straying from their own teachings. To suggest that one side is somehow acting upon the other like a ?cancer? is a circular argument that can objectively be seen from either side if one is truly objective about it.
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    sure a very convenient way of explaining things. why did the force allow sid to come to power in the first place, huh? and if anakin's sole purpose was to destroy sid, why all the trouble?
    a) that depends on what the destiny is. depending on what you think bringing the force into balance means.
    b) i'm not sure why i'm so reluctant, but anyway... he can choose whatever he wants in the realm of possibility except whether he wants to kill sid or not. or else, he can choose when to kill sid.
    c) i'm not sure what 'participating in his destiny' means.

    i'm not very far from denying free will altogether right now. so, why don't you prove how he was going to choose differently given who he is.
    well, what is your concept of the force then? everyone seems to come up with a different notion these days. let's hear yours.
    i'm thinking it wants to get rid off all them force users for good because they all have it wrong.
  13. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    What you mention here is a big part of the reason this discussion probably seems to go off on so many twists and turns regarding the force...people like to try and conceptualize it in their own unique way. I try to be rather dispassionate about what it is; try not to personify it in a way that gives it some sort of consciousness. Quite obviously (with all the other religious symbolism in the characters and films), Lucas had some sort of spiritual connotation in mind with its design. However, rather than assume it is some how like the power of god (that many of the proponents of it favoring the Jedi seem to take), I instead tend to regard it as merely a force of energy that exists in the universe. In the films, the Jedi often refer to it as a sort of spiritual embodiment (with a consciousness), but I tend to regard that as them personifying their goody goody intentions and use of it?sort of an extreme bias that they have been indoctrinated with by their order...to adopt to give them purpose and empowerment...to better enable them to uphold their virtues. A sort of manifest destiny, if you will.

    To use a real world analogy, nuclear power is the unleashing of a considerable amount of atomic energy?it can be used for good or it can be used for bad. What determines how it is used, is not the energy which binds atoms together, but the intentions of the people who unleash it. Human nature is dynamic; people can be very kind and compassionate?but they can also be very much the opposite. The concepts of good and evil (the cain and able analogy I provided earlier), is what makes the distinction?not the inanimate forces of the universe which act upon them. Does that answer your question?

    BTW, Get_in_Gear: I wasn?t deliberately avoiding your interrogatories; I thought that responding to what darth-sinister wrote would properly address both of your posts at the same time.
  14. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> I try to be rather dispassionate about what it is; try not to personify it in a way that gives it some sort of consciousness.

    But if the Force has no consciousness, Natas, then what is the Will of the Force.....?



    Excellent post, BTW, Dez.

    Anakin's destiny is to destroy the Sith and thereby bring balance to the Force.
    HOW he chooses to do that is down to him, and the decisions he makes.
    His choices are not pre-destined.


    -JR :)
  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i'm with you. i'm with you with the energy field. not a person. much like a taoist concept. therefore it cannot destroy part of itself, because it's a dynamic 'thing'.
    what i have a problem with is the will of the force thing which i can sort of explain away and say it'a metaphor.
    how do energy fields create life though, if they have no determination?
    the best i have come up with yet is that the force is a mixture of a couple of divine concepts.
    dunno if it answers my question... i follow you with intention and human nature, but i'm not sure how you relate that to the force *acting*. if it's an energy field it just is and might not have our petty notions of justice and morality. but then you say it is not even, right? so how can the prophecy have come into the world if not through *someone* divining future events and dreaming up a possible conclusion? and wouldn't this divination mean that the force indeed has some influenece on the mortals?

    don't get me wrong, i'm just throwing this out there. i just think the pieces might not fit together because they come from different places.
  16. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    bah! jr, why make it easy when you can have it complicated? :D
    the will of the force might well be a metaphor.
  17. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, I think Lucas has already added a plot mechanism to take that burden off us to try and be objective about this.
    The midichlorians.
    I think I look at it differently from some of the opinions being expressed here, because I don't see the Force as having some singular goal in mind: destruction of the Sith, destruction of the Jedi, cancelling out of both...

    The Force just wants to carry on being the Force.
    The Sith's use of the Dark Side of the Force is, by Sidious' own admission, unnatural.
    So we can take the political issue of whether the Jedi's use of the Force is any better than the Sith, because we have a neutral third party acting as a conduit - the midichlorians are constantly speaking to you relating to you the will of the Force.
    That is how the Jedi live their lives, by listening to the Force's will and enacting it.
    That is natural.
    The midichlorians speak to Sith also - but they choose to command the midichlorians; to inflict their will upon the Force.
    That is unnatural.

    That is all the Force wants, stability - not instability.
    Harmony - not chaos.
    The Sith are creating instability and chaos.
    I don't mean politically - politically, it could be argued Palpatine does create a safer, more secure galaxy.
    It is not about politics, it is about the Sith's bastardisation of the Force. It's about their desire to command and control the Force, rather than work with it.

    The Force is not saying "Destroying the Sith is a good thing."
    It is saying "Help me, I want to be back to normal again, I'm being pulled out of shape!"
    There is a difference.
    Destroying the Sith, it turns out, is just a means to achieving that goal.
    Eliminating Sith is not, in itself, the goal.
    It is a return to nature.
    The Jedi are not "nature".
    The Sith are not "nature".
    But the Jedi are able to live in harmony with nature.
    The Sith seek to disrupt nature.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's not stacking the deck in my favor. It's the story. The Sith are in the wrong and must be wiped out to preserve the Force and the peace.

    Anyone with a significant Midichlorian count can use the Force, but they must use it correctly. The Sith don't and as such they must be stopped, no matter the cost. It's not bias. It's the story.

    Dooku never conquered his fears and his greed. Though he was trained from an early age, he never taught himself to let go. This is why he turned. He wanted to be all powerful. He never let go of his fears. He was attached to Qui-gon.

    The symbiotic nature of the Jedi and the parasitic nature of the Sith is at the core of Star Wars. One side is the correct side. The other isn't.

    It couldn't. All it could do was create Anakin to stop him, before it was too late. And that's if the Force created Anakin. It might not be able to do anything, but watch and place people on their path to destiny.

    The destiny is that Anakin has to kill two Sith Lords. He runs from it by being selfish.


    Killing the Sith.

    He can choose to kill Sidious whenever,
  19. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    The ?Will" of the force is merely the Jedi?s personification of it as an entity for their own dogmatic agenda.
    The force doesn?t, but the midiclorians do. Keep in mind, they are sort of similar to mitocondria, but produce energy by either tapping into or utilizing the force?rather than create energy through chemical metabolism like mitochondria do.
    The answer that I gave to OBIWAN-JR is also the answer to your questions here too I think: the Jedi personify the force as a part of their religious doctrine. Divination doesn?t have to come from any kind of supernatural entity or consciousness?it is merely seeing into the future. Granted, the force enables one to do it, but it is not necessarily the force which deliberately brings it about. If it were a deliberately intended will of something like that, I argue that it would have been a prophecy with considerably much more clarity. It is merely bits and pieces of many possible events in the future?which are easily misinterpreted accordingly, but because those events all lead to what the Jedi desire to happen for their own ends, they make it into a dogmatic, religious sort of prophecy?similar to that of the apocalypse in the bible. That is why they refer to Anakin as the ?Chosen One.? That is also why him turning to the dark side was so upsetting to them.

    The point of this thread is whether or not Anakin had to become Sith to bring about the prophecy. I argue that it could have been done either way?which is why the prophecy came about to begin with?because as I stated, all the possible confusing events of the future, all lead to the same final conclusion, but the different possible paths provided enough ambiguity to keep it from being crystal clear as to what path he would take to do it. Keep in mind too, that this is all just science fiction anyway. LOL
    ;)

    I know you aren?t; I'm making sure that you don't. I?m saying you should stop trying. As for your ?It?s the story? argument, the films are based on the perspective of the Jedi, but as in real life, there are two sides to every story. That?s why we should be discussing it rather than just accepting the biased perspective of the movie as gospel, like a bunch of religious fanatics. There would be no point in having dicussions in these forums, like this, at all...if it were so cut and dry.
    [quote=darth-
  20. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Yes - biased.
    Biased in favour of established narrative fact, rather than intriguing, but ultimately, fruitless conjecture, methinks...

    ;)
  21. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yeah, so the prophecy is entirely something they sort of fit into their view of the world. i think we agree on that.
    they desire something to happen and hence they take anakin on.

    but there's uncertainty to this as well. or are you saying there was always uncertainty and the jedi just sort of said this is going to happen and thereby solidified it?
    doesn't mean i cannot even attempt to understand it, right?
    so you say there is a prescribed ending to anakin's story (bringing balance preps?) and yet you say nobody really knew this end, they just figured this would be it (and figured how it would be it) and left it at that. but the there is *destiny* and there is a prescribed order of events supposed to happen ion order for something else to happen, so, my question is when do these things start and when do they end? was him becoming a sith part of this or not? and no one could answer it so far.
    and what is destiny anyway?
    i'm getting lost.
    well, creating looks mighty mighty to me. and somehow influencing events doesn't come into it? still makes no sense. the force merely hoped things would turn out okayish?

    all the rest of your argument is just the usual. and it tires me to explain again and again how i'm thinking that destroying the sith is only part of the story.
    i'm sure it looked neat when you typed it in, but are you aware of the notion that we need both: chaos and harmony? coz for once we wouldn't be able to appreciate harmony without chaos?
    maybe you'll come out with, yes, we do, but in the GFFA we don't or something like that, but i'll stand by that.
    harmony in and by itself is hellishly boring. diversity is far more interesting than uniformity, taking a risk is far more exciting than putting your hands in your lap. etc etc etc.
    and that isn't simply rhetorics.
  22. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Lucas created this saga?and he most obviously used our own society and human natures as a model for its creation. Quite frankly, there are just too many obvious correlations to deny it. One of darth-sinister?s infamous Lucas quotes in another thread even goes on and on about how he was trying to draw parallels between the Jedi and Sith?not just in terms of good and evil, but also yin and yang (Eastern philosophy) sort of stuff. You shouldn?t be so closed-minded and quick to judge?you might be more likely to see the full dynamic, instead of the cut and dry 2-D image you choose to see instead.
    I think the prophecy was based on visions of the Sith being destroyed. Period. However, the means by which it was achieved was always unclear. Part of the reason I believe this to be so (not only because in the films it so obviously was), is because Anakin's character is not good or evil...it is neutral. He represents the quintessential human being...who has to choose right from wrong, but can go either way. That is also why I have objected to him being referred to as angelic.
    I can?t tell if your initial question is asking me if I?m suggesting you are daft?or not? I wasn?t; at all. All I meant about the SciFi bit was just that I was trying to keep it on the light side of seriousness?as it isn?t real anyway. To clarify/reiterate, the ?Chosen One? was destined to destroy the sith?I believe the prophecy was based on this eventual conclusion being reached by someone. However, it was obviously obscure enough that they didn?t know exactly who this individual was. Furthermore, the Jedi don?t really know whether the chosen one is jedi or sith?they just assume it will be a jedi because he destroys the sith?rather simple assumption really. What makes it complicated and ambiguous, is that only the ultimate end of the sith being destroyed is known?through the prophecy. All the events that take place up to that point are not. Yoda cannot see it clearly at all, but instead sees conflict in young Ani?and so doubts it is him because he is biased in thinking the ?Chosen One? will be jedi. Also, the prophecy is not clear on a time line?so there is always doubt as to when it will actually happen. They rely on faith that it is Anakin, and go through trauma when he turns to the dark side. It is supposed to be confusing?it is all about choices, and the inner conflict of doing right from wrong?a very human condition.
  23. haydenlover92 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2005
  24. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Yes, yes, I've already covered that...he doesn't know...he assumes--they all do. He sees his turning as not BEING the chosen one. Like I wrote, it is supposed to be confusing.
    This is essentially what I just wrote in my previous post!:D
  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    natas, i never thought you suggested i was daft. no way. just right now my head hurts. i'll get back to the chat here in due time. no worries. :)
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