Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    But who is judging who here?
    Why do you presume your interpretation trumps the words that come out of Lucas' own mouth when it comes to discussing specific plot points?
    Why do you say my POV is 2-D?
    Why presume my POV isn't dynamic?
    Why do you presume I don't see the allusions to real life; the parallels with popular myth, greek tragedy, different philosophies of the world, religions etc etc just because I don't agree with your POV?

    I do see these things, and they are well documented even if I didn't see them for myself.
    But they provide inspiration for Lucas, it doesn't follow that they always provide narrative truth.

    I'm all for looking at every possibility.
    I'm all for exploring things to death.
    But not at the expense of ignoring what is given as fact by the body of work itself, and by the author's own words.

    The question is "Did Anakin have to become a Sith in order for the Prophecy to be fulfilled?"
    To tell you the truth, and forgive me, I'm not even sure what your opinion is on this. You think that Anakin did have to, right?
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i think this bugs me about this whole question: whatever lucas has to *say* he said with the films. no more words from him needed. everything else is interpretation and just because lucas has nailed it, doesn't mean i cannot nail it to anything else.

    within the realms of what the films provide of course.

    here endeth the rant about the popular quotism here at tfn.
  3. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    And what I don't particularly like, while we're on that slant, is the assumption that anyone who posts a quote cannot have thought about the topic, as much as someone who disagrees with that quote.
    I watch the films, I see what happens, I form an opinion just like anyone else.
    I don't just sit here reading a novel while my computer fires out quotes on it's own, and I'm sure Sinister doesn't either.
    If a Lucas quote validates my understanding of something, then I am going to post it - especially when he manages to crystalise my own thoughts on a subject.
    Why should I not?

    Lucas clearly says the Force is out of balance because of the existence of the Sith.
    Lucas clearly says the says that balance is brought to the Force when Anakin kills Palpatine in ROTJ.

    Forgive me, but that's not just any old opinion - it's the author describing what he actually put in the films he made.

    I'm all for exploring other interpretations and deeper meanings to thing such as this, and it's interesting discussion.
    But it kind of borders on "what if?" fodder to me sometimes...
    :p
  4. Ruthio Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 2
    well Anakin didn't have to beocme a sith. He could of just sliced off Palpatines head instead of cutting Mace windus hand. But, he made a decision and he had to live and die with it. Then again Qui-gon could of left Anakins ass where he found him. But Qui-gon made a choice and had to live and die with it.
  5. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    a) that depends on what the destiny is.

    Ok, let me begin by saying I can see this can get fairly convoluted depending on your definition of Destiny, of which there are several. For the purposes of SW, I am using a Shakespearean or Greek tragedy type definition, which I suspect Lucas is using, (the discussion of which is probably best suited for the Saga forum).

    The common theme is of these works is a protagonist who cannot escape their destiny, however hard they try.


    depending on what you think bringing the force into balance means.

    Equilibrium ~ Harmony between the light and dark side of the Force, and they both need to be there.

    As GIG has said:
    The Sith's use of the Dark Side of the Force is, by Sidious' own admission, unnatural.
    The Sith seek to command it and bend that will to their own vision.

    There is an excellent example of how a Jedi allows the Force to work through him on pps. 285-286 of the ROTS Novelization, but the critical line I will post here:

    [...] but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.

    The idea being that the Jedi strive to work in partnership with the Force, not to control it.


    b) i'm not sure why i'm so reluctant, but anyway... he can choose whatever he wants in the realm of possibility except whether he wants to kill sid or not. or else, he can choose when to kill sid.

    I'm pretty sure that Vader always wants to kill Sidious, the question is when.

    frared: i'm not sure why i'm so reluctant...

    I would speculate that you don't like other people placing expectations on you either. :p


    c) i'm not sure what 'participating in his destiny' means.
    i'm not very far from denying free will altogeth
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Wel, that's where you're wrong. The Force does have a will. It is, for all intents and purposes, the divine influence of the GFFA. And the Jedi aren't dogmatic. That's Sith propaganda, otherwise known as bantha fodder.

    Sorry, you're wrong. The Force is an energy that also has a higher being level to it. When Qui-gon speaks to Yoda and Obi-wan, and they in turn speak to Luke, they are speaking not only as themselves, but also as the Force itself. The ultimate form of symbiosis. It gives things out in bits and pieces, because it wants the lifeforms to understand things on their own and make their decisions accordingly. The Jedi quiet their mind and can hear the Force through the Midichlorians.

    These discussions exist because people have nothing better to do with themselves than to sit down and talk about useless crap.

  7. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Well, since a healthy debate seems to throw you into such a tirade (aka temper tantrum/meltdown), I suppose I should just drop it and let you go on believing what the status quo around here wishes to accept as the only possible, accepted interpretation of these films. I don?t agree with you, but it seems rather clear now that the deck, is indeed, stacked in your favor?since you are a moderator here, and admin blatantly wishes to prejudice this sort of discussion with bias in my disfavor. My hands are tied?as certainly a double standard surely exists here for true discussion.
  8. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    ^^^^^^^^ =D=

    A double standard is a harsh mistress...
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    But we can't let that detract from the debate...
    The will of the Force is not a matter of politics, it is not a matter of dogmatic points of view and it is not a matter of some impartial force of nature.
    It is about the Force having a will.
    A will which we are told is conveyed to the sentient beings of the galaxy by the midichlorians.

    How can one claim the Jedi are simply inflicting their dogmatic point of view upon the Force after watching all six movies?
    Qui-Gon Jinn, as a model Jedi, learns how to become one with the Force and attains eternal consciousness.
    When Yoda communes with the Force, the Force itself chooses QGJ as the vessel through which it answers.
    Yoda and Obi are able, through QGJ to become one with the Force too - and it is through being Jedi that they are able to do this.
    It is something, as QGJ informs us, "no Sith can achieve".

    As was said before - the Sith are a cancer, Anakin is the cure.

    The Force is not favouring the Jedi per se.
    The Force is not trying to destroy the Sith per se.
    The Jedi are, through their practices, making themselves favourable to the Force.
    The Sith, through their practices and intentions, are making themselves a threat to the stability of the Force.

    You are not judged on who or what you are, only what you do.
    The Sith are not being punished for being Sith, they simply need to be removed to restore balance to the Force because they are upsetting the balance.
    We don't need to debate the merits of the Jedi POV vs the Sith POV, because the proof is in the pudding - balance IS brought in ROTJ, and it IS brought because the Sith are gone from the galaxy.
  10. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> The ?Will" of the force is merely the Jedi?s personification of it as an entity for their own dogmatic agenda.

    Right, so let me get this straight, Natas.
    As far as you are concerned the Force does not have a 'Will'?

    Right?


    Which means that as far as you are concerned, Anakin cannot be the Chosen One in terms of having been 'fathered' by the Force in Messianic fashion?

    Right?


    And are you also saying that, with reference to the topic, Anakin HAD to become a Sith?


    -JR :)
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Do not presume to assume that when I say I have a temper, that I am using it in my posts.
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    you know what happens a lot, though? that quotes stop a debate because they supposedly answer a lifelong mystery of sorts. like the productive and destructive side to love or some such thing. we'll just get a lucas quote to answer it. lucas knows best!

    i love assembling argumentations and having them compete against others to see how they've grown in depth, but it's unfortunate if all i get is people pulling quotes which supposedly answer stuff.

    i tell you, if things are a mystery and open a debate (like who shot john dillinger? or did mace lose against sid?) then that's because they are presented that way in the films. (whether george intended them this way or not, i don't give a toss)

    and if i see that the issues of destiny and free will are presented in the films, i also see that the films by themselves do not give an answer to what's right and wrong. indeed, i daresay, i wouldn't love ROTS quite as much, if it was so cut'n'dry with its answers.
  13. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    I'm not assuming anything...that IS why you wrote it. The fact that you are now reduced to a one line post is not only substantiating evidence of that, but also that you have now been properly censured for using your hate in such an unbecoming manner to your title. If you have anything further to add, I suggest you consult my sig first.

    OBIWAN-JR: what part of ?I should just drop it,? for the obvious reasons I stated didn?t you understand?

    ?Dangerous? Dave: minor is all you can get from a mod; even so, still not an easy feat to achieve accordingly.
    :p
  14. s0Lstar18 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2005
    star 1
    I think that both the Sith'Ari and Jedi prophecy works b/c at the time Darth Maul, Asajj Ventress, Darth Maul and to a more public audience who knows nothing of the Sith, General Grievous(b/c most people would associate Lightsabers with the Jedi or Sith)were the only known Sith,no one knew at the time that Palps was indeed Darth Sideous not even the Jedi,so Yes when Maul was destroyed(not By Ani I know)Asajj Ventress,Tyrannus,and Grievous the Sith were "destroyed" in a way,Especially with Tyrannus being the most powerful "known" Sith of the bunch but when Anakin turned to the Darkside and became Darth Vader,yes he was going kill Darth Sideous being 2x as powerful(3x if he didn't lose the other arm.)and lead them to make them stronger,but even with him only being an apprentice to Darth Sideous they still lead together to make the Sith stronger than ever be4,then it works into the Jedi prophecies where he did destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force,so it works both ways if you ask me.



  15. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    This this TFN poster is my kind of scum.
    Fearless and inventive.

    o_O
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    You mentioned my name and made an observation. I gave you the origin of it. Any assumptions you make are your own folly.
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    now it sounds like you follow the sith destrution theory. is this what you mean?
    i mean, i follow you with yoda assuming all these things because he cannot imagine the jedi having lost their track, right? but this is my argument in favour of having the jedi order destroyed as well, as they weren't willing or able to change on their own account in their own time anymore. they had become so arrogant in their philosophy that there was no other way to change them. and i realize what this means,
  18. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I'd like to pick up on that point of the prophecy being "based on a vision of the destruction of the Sith".
    I'm not sure whether that is true.

    Here are the slender facts we know about the Prophecy:

    1) The Prophecy must state or allude to the fact that the Chosen One is born of the Force itself - that the midichlorians will create the individual who will bring balance to the Force.
    QUI-GON: "A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midichlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians."
    MACE WINDU: "You're referring to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy?"


    2) That the Chosen One must destroy the Sith is proven to be a fact to the audience in Return of the Jedi, and Lucas confirms this to be the case.
    However, up until that point, it is equally clear that the Prophecy itself does not explicitly say that the Chosen One's destiny is to destroy the Sith, that is just the Jedi interpretation of whatever it is the Prophecy says.
    We know that because of this scene:
    OBI-WAN: "With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?"
    MACE: "So the prophecy says."
    YODA: "A prophecy... that misread could have been."

    Destroying the Sith and bringing balance is just a reading of the prophecy.

    The actual text of the Prophecy could be something quite cryptic.
    We don't even know if it is a "text".
    It could be a cave painting, or some kind of runes which need deceiphering.
    It could be a riddle.

    It doesn't matter.
    Because in the end, it is just a prophecy - a prediction.
    And, most importantly, the Jedi's interpretation of that Prophecy is proven to be absolutely spot on.
    QGJ was right.
    The Jedi were right.

    If it was based on or inspired by a vision of the Sith being destroyed, I feel the actual Prophecy itself would have said so explicitly.
    It just says a Chosen One will be born of the Force itself and will bring balance to the Force, from what we can deduce from the films themselves.
    Just because the Prophet did not see or choose to mention the Destruction of the Sith - it was still integral to his Prophecy, because that is what casued it to be true - that was the balance bringing act.
    He saw balance, and the one who would bring it.

  19. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> OBIWAN-JR: what part of ?I should just drop it,? for the obvious reasons I stated didn?t you understand?

    I'm sorry, Natas.

    But I thought that when you said: ?I should just drop it?, you were referring to your discussion with Sinister, seeing as that is who you were responding to at the time.

    I wasn't aware that it was a full ranging comment that applied to all.

    All I was doing was replying to your response to ME, and trying to get some clarification from you, regarding your stance in this thread.

    If the discussion is over, then fine.
    Say so.

    But please don't do it in such a condescending way, when my only intention is to have an intelligent discussion with you.


    Thanks.


    -JR :)
  20. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i'm not sure how nitpicky i can get with you.... :p
    and i can be awfully nitpicky...

    ok, let's try this: there is this prophecy about bringing balance to the force. assuming it says it will be a somebody doing the job doesn't necessarily say it will be someone born from the force with a high midi count.
    granted, anakin's circumstances and midi-count is exceptional and it's a reason QGJ considers him for the whole thing. but it's not direct proof it had to be this kid. under those circumstances. it *could* be the element of surprise.
    i think by now you know my take on lucas quotes, right?
    not sure how it is a proven fact that the balancing the force thing is *solely* about the destruction of the sith. that's my point. it's not *solely* the sith. there are other things incorporated in it. could we talk about that preps?
    i admire your confidence. can i have a share?
    what makes you so sure about it?
    i think you were confusing jedi with sith in this one or are you? coz otherwise it makes no sense.
    or you are really discussing the sith destruction which i haven't really doubted. or maybe i have. i'm lost.

    anyway, just to reiterate (love that word!):
    destruction of sith: check
    destruction of jedi order: check

    hence, maybe destruction of the jedi order was part of it.
    no more, no less.

    can we now talk about that?
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    This includes everyone. Not just you and Natas. It's not advice. It's simple fact of all Star Wars fans, nay any fan who posts on a fan message board. People like us are judge as having no life.

    The destruction of the Jedi is the result of one man making bad choices. It wasn't forseen and was not what the Force wanted. Sidious didn't need Anakin. He wanted him. The Jedi were almost destroyed when he issued Order 66. If Anakin hadn't been found, the Jedi would've still been killed by Palpatine's machinations. All Vader did was help the Empire.
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    you know, i've been mulling this over for a while now and i'm not sure how hard you tried but i still feel offended and i think you made assumptions about my life based on my posts on a SW message board. i don't think this a good attitude towards any user.

    and it also says the arguments i make are useless and above all baseless because i discuss them here. i don't really get it. we might be judged by the outside as having no life, which i don't really give a toss about. i have met some of the coolest people 'round here during last year and i have enjoyed most of the time that i stayed here. i was actually having fun.

    maybe you don't sinister, that's fair enough, but i won't have you tell me and the other users here that we are boring geeks.

    coz i don't perceive my friends that way and neither myself.

    i know you don't like my argument in this thread and you feel that i am delusional for not following george's opinion and actually having differing views. i can't help it, sinister, sometimes i must think. it's just this little defect. and then i think about SW. and debate, frankly enough, is about differing views. sorry if you see it differently.

    so now you can actually discuss my view and show me the holes in my logic or you can leave it. it's your choice. so far what you put forth isn't actually anything based on anything i see. it's just someone saying what i ought to see. and, yeah, i'm not a big fan of being told what to see.
  23. JMN77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    star 3
    =D= Here endeth the lesson.
  24. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4

    pwned
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I never called anyone a useless geek. When I say people are discussing useless crap, I refer to the fact that it doesn't change the world. It's just people talking about films. Nothing more. Something that is not worth getting personal over, as opposed to talking about politics or religion, where everyone gets personal. Talking about a bunch of films is not worth getting angry. That was my point.
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