Anakin had to become a Sith...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by millenniumteacher, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I disagree.

    Anakin did not have to become anything. The midichlorians created Anakin, not the Jedi. Anyone knowing the ways of the Force can use the Force. This is the lesson that Yoda and Ben learned by the end of their lives.

    Anakin was created to bring balance to the Force that had become unbalanced because of the Sith's use of the Dark Side. The Force did not care if it was a Jedi Knight or not that did the job only that a Force-User was given the power to deal with the Sith.
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    if the force doesn't care who sets it right, the argument still stands: it might as well hav e been a sith or a person who has tried both and sort of failed at both.
  3. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    Harsh Mistress ...... Ahhh I could use one of those [face_devil]

    Anyway for my part in this topic, my opineon is pretty rigid but I'll try and have an open mind.

    The way I see it; Luke is a testement of the hero's journey Anakin was supposed to have or what the will of the force would have naturally pushed for. Luke's example reminded Anakin of why he wanted to become a jedi in the first place. In less than 4 years of hardly any hands on training whatsoever, Luke manages to defeat Vader in a one on one struggle. More importantly, he didn't succumb to the madness of the Sith. This is primarily because he hadn't been corrupted for 13 years of his life by the Sith Lord. The experiences that shaped Anakin are precisely why the twins were hidden away and left to mature before getting involved in the conflict.

    Now while I agree many of these experiences occur while Anakin is under the Jedi Mandate, but the ego and pride that pushed Anakin to make bad choices are the result of Palpatine's coaxing over the years; not the fundamental ways of the Jedi. Although they weren't perfect and may even be considered unworthy of the mere shadows of the Jedi in the OT; their ultimate motivations were founded in doing what was right and decent in the galaxy.

    That being said, the balance of the force was not dependent on the Jedi establishment directly. The force has a will of its' own regardless of what institution chooses to follow or abandon it. By this idea, the Jedi were not nessesarily what the force had in mind when it came to guardians of peace and justice. But as an institution they were there to serve, perhaps even too blindly to the institution of the Old Republic. At some point in their history, someone must have come to the conclusion that governments pass away but the force is forever. For this reason they would have served the Republic better by residing in a Temple far from the central government. There they could have mandated their own sense of justice and retained their own level of security against all enemies within and without.

    Regardless of their decay over time; one thousand generations; the force is a living entity. It grows as life grows. Because of this, it's will is directly attached to life. Ideals that support life are by default ideals that support the will of the force. The Sith revel in death and madness for their own purposes. This is destructive and counter to what the force is seeking.

    Obi Wan makes a plain statement regarding the force. He sais that the force obeys your commands but it also controls your actions. Just as the Jedi are compelled to do right, the Sith are compelled to do wrong. In the fiber of their being, the influence of the force either stays their hand or enrages their fury. This is why Anakin is so disapointed by his own actions against the Sand People, because he knows he's capable of doing better. Padme doesn't understand this because she has to rely on her own compass and lives life each day without the good side of the force guiding her. Just as Yoda said; once down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

    These analogies show that even a Jedi with the best intentions will fall to darkness if he taps into dark sources. Worse yet, that dark source will dominate what the being does and doesn't do. This is why balance in the force is so important. If the Sith are left to exist, it endangers the existance of the force itself. And although it's unlikeley that any single being could destroy all known life in the galaxy, it's where the Sith are headed on a fundamental level.

    Now considering all of this. It's clear that the force cannot by it's very nature control the will of others regardless of the destiny those around them claim to be true. The fact that the force ever reaches a state that threatens it's own balance is testement that the force doesn't have control over everything and the will of all beings i
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin didn't have to be a Jedi or a Sith, is what's being said by TrueJedi. That is what was misread.
  5. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I can agree with this since both Jedi and Sith are merely labels of an institution. Anakin did however need to do what was right and good according to the nature of the good side of the force. His time as a Sith and all that he 'accomplished' in those years was wasted energy. None of it contributed to the will of the force or the fulfillment of the prophecy.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Who he is as an individual was more important than which organization he was a part of. Anakin had to be willing to turn on Palpatine, without continuing the cycle of evil that he was a part of. In breaking that cycle, he makes sure that the Sith won't rise again.
  7. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    who he is as an individual is more important than his organization?

    that would mean that it's perfectly plausible he wipes out the jedi because he no longer feels part of them. that would also mean he can do whatever he wants. and i also fail to see how if it's destroying the sith he even has any choice regarding much of anything in terms of his destiny.

    but hey, so, you might as well argue he had to become a sith to get the hangup of this organization as well.
  8. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    How can Anakin destroy the Sith if he can't be a Jedi to do it? That don't make any sense. There is no other way Anakin can get any closer to PalpSidious without any training in the Jedi Arts and I doubt that he would go with the "Han Solo" approach by simply gunning him down knowing that Palps would either slash him into pieces with his lightsaber or force-grab his gun like Anakin himself (as Vader) did to Han.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No, what it means is that Anakin didn't have to be a part of either order to fulfill his destiny. He just had to be trained in the ways of the Force and face the Sith. Hell, he could've been a Shaman of the Whills and still be the Chosen One.

    Anakin could be trained in the ways of the Force, but not be a Jedi Knight. He could then fight him using the Force and a Lightsaber. Like I said, he could've been a Shaman of the Whills and go after Sidious.
  10. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Hate to muddy the already convoluted waters here, but must take issue with this comment...

    Jedi and Sith are NOT merely labels of their respective Order...

    Each Order is defined by the philosophy of their beliefs about the ways and use of the Force.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    not sure where those shamans live and work but since they are never mentioned anywhere i suppose we might safely ignore them and focus on sith and jedi. so, how was he supposed to lrearn about force and such without being either?
    both are force users, though. a bit like catholic and protestant church, i imagine. ;)
  12. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I did explain that Anakin had to do the right thing and abandon evil. It is possible to do that without either order ever having existed. The orders are indeed defined by their philosophies. What's important is the philosophy came first. This is basically what I said and it reads this way when it isn't broken up and separated into fragments of a thought out of context to the whole idea. The idea reads as follows:

    I just wanted to clarify this. :-B
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Shaman of the Whills was a group of Force users that discovered, among other things, how to retain their identity upon death. Qui-gon learned from one of them and this is what he teaches to Yoda and Obi-wan, who help Anakin. They are canon, since Lucas wrote them and had intended them to be in the film. Their is little known about them, but they appear to be much like the Jedi, since only those who are compassionate and without attachments can retain their identities.

    All Anakin had to do was taught about the Force. Taught to use his power for the benefit of others. Taught to not be selfish. Taught to let go of all sense of self and attachment. The Jedi and the Whills are similar, but also different. One was the defenders of peace and justice. The other was appearently dedicated to the study of the Force only.

  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But there is noone in the galaxy who knows the ways of the Force better than the Jedi do and only they can provide Anakin the knowledge on how to use the Force and the lightsaber. Also, because Lucas didn't bother to mention the Shamen of the Whills in any of the prequal films, then they do not exist to me which leaves us with only one access on how to use the Force: The Jedi.
  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister?
  16. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister


    Well maybe just think about other people for a change Frared? That could be a start.
  17. JMN77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    star 3
    Gotta go with Sinister on this one.
    It's really that simple.
    Yes Dez the titles of the individual organizations are far more than just that,
    but all that matters is that Anakin A) Knew the ways of the Force and
    B) Destroyed the Sith.... weather he was a Jedi or not.
    Has it been overlooked that Anakin was a Sith when he destroyed Sidious??
    (I may not have read back far enough.)
  18. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    how about through actions instead of thumb-twiddling?
    it hasn't. i don't think. :) and is he really a sith? is he really ever properly a sith?
    it has been overlooked that there may be a more cosmological plan to the balancing which might involve the destruction of the jedi order and it has been overlooked that no one knows what balancing the force actually means. it has been overlooked that all we have is the jedi's interpretation of the prophecy. and it has been overlooked that there might not be a will of the force at all because that is a metaphor.

    i think i have those bases covered now. :D
  19. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Lucas has said this series is about choices, we have a very important choice made in ROTS where Anakin decides to let Sidious live twice. Then again in ROTJ where he decides to take him out.

    Now he could haver saved himself 20 years in the suit, he could have been the greatest Jedi Master ever, had lots of kids with his wife and lived a much better life. Even if they expelled him from the order doesn't mean he loses all his powers, just his status.

    Would the Jedi council expell the chosen one anyway?
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But Anakin didn't have to be a member of the Jedi Order to learn the ways of the Force. Had Qui-gon not assumed correctly that Maul was a Sith, he would've been content to say that he was just trained in the ways of the Force, but was not a Jedi. Remember that the Jedi first came about without a Jedi Master to teach that first person. There was no such thing as a Jedi, over twenty five thousand years ago.

    Bingo. Anakin never once thinks or considers what his wife wants. He never asks her what she wants him to do. It's always what he wants. That is by definition being selfish.

    Obi-wan has been a role model for Anakin on how to be selfless. Anakin just didn't pay attention and take it to heart.

    Sith don't act compassionately.

    All the way up until he starts to become conflicted over his actions.

    Well, we do know what it is. It's told to us in the films and by George Lucas himself.


    Well, I think they would even if he did the right thing and took out Palpatine. That's setting a poor example that Anakin broke the rules and then doesn't get punished for it. This is true in real life.
  21. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    Anakin didn't have to become a sith. The prophecy was that the chosen one would bring balance to the force right? It doesn't say anything about him or her killing anyone. The jedi's misreading the prophecy was that they assumed that the one would kill the emporer or something like that. But all that it meant was that the existence of a jedi that was extremely endowed with the good side of the force would balance out Sidious who was extremely into the dark side. Remember, Sidious birth wasn't natural, he was created. So the force willed Anakin to be created to balance things out. All he had to do to fulfill the prophecy was simply exist, all the other stuff about killing the emporer wasn't the defenite destiny of the universe, it's just how things played out.
  22. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Perhaps fared, if you consider how your actions affect others ~
    you might make different choices.[face_thinking]
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Reading the novel "Dark Lord", Luceno aptly points out that Vader would've made Padme understand his reasonings for doing what he has done. Luceno put the word made in italics. As in force her to understand. In the same scene, Vader thinks that he was doing was best for everyone. He didn't care what they thought. He only cared about what he wanted to do. He's mad at Obi-wan for adhering to the Jedi teachings and he's mad at Padme for clinging to the way of the Old Republic.

    Greedy through and through.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But now, there is such as a thing as the Jedi and again, they are the only ones with knowledge on how to use the Force and the lightsaber because there is nobody else that does. Plus, Qui-Gon has to label Maul as a Sith because 1) There is nobody who would battle Qui-Gon in such raw-aggressive fashion like the Sith do and 2) He would want Anakin to know who the Jedi are up against so that he would not be tempted into becoming a Sith himself.

    If you call wanting your wife to survive childbirth as "selfish", then I think its unfair to criticize Anakin for that because Padme knows that the last time Anakin had dreams of a loved one dying, it came true and it was foolish of her to tell Anakin that the new dreams of her dying will not be real when she knows that Anakin will not make that same assumption again after what happened to his mom.

  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yes, i suppose. how about i have to make mistakes still, though?
    is it empathy you're after? being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes?

    i have the feeling that selflessness as a mindset can only be achieved by voluntarily doing it. for me it's useless to *demand* it because once it's forced it's empty.
    you have to arrive at wanting to do it by yourself. through being able to also receive. i don't think anybody can tell me that charity is not a reward in itself.
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