Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

Oh, okay. I just thought it would be nice if your posts made sense, and didn't contain indiscriminate swipes against people who aren't even part of the debate.

My bad.

 

"Nah I'll do what I like thanks"

Nah, I'm pretty sure that you should discuss the points that people bring up, rather than discussing individual users or lumping everyone together. Thanks.

 

Obi-Can:

Nope, he isn't. There is no Chosen One. Thats just George throwing us some red-herring mythological bones. Make all those Campbell fans happy.

In the story, there is a chosen one plot. Whether you consider it a bone tossed to the Campbell fans or not, it's there. You don't have to like it, but to say that there isn't a chosen one when in fact there's a whole subplot about it running through TPM and AOTC is a bit ridiculous.

How do we know he was born of the midi's -- because his mother dreamed up a fantasy because she can't admit she had a quickie with a stranger or was raped (being a slave I'm sure it happened).

You're getting though, Star Wars is a PG movie franchise. Character's don't normally lie in family movies - considering Anakin's fatherhood hasn't been challenged yet, it's a safe assumption that Anakin was concieved by midis. Also, I'm pretty sure Lucas has commented that there really was no father, and I think he knows better than either of us do when it comes to his own story.

There is also no proof that the "Chosen One" prophecy requires a conception of midi's thats pure speculation.

Just because it's not blatantly said doesn't mean it's pure speculation. IMMEDIATLY after qui mentions that, Mace asks if he is refering to the prophecy of the chosen one. It hasn't come up in the conversation before, so we know he's not just jumping back to a previous point. Therefore, it can be assumed that the chosen one prophecy says one has to be born of midiclorians, and there really is no other conclusion one can arrive at from that scene.

Well if it's harmony, then it is Luke that is the Chosen ONe, all that Anakin wrought was destruction and chaos. Luke is the one that brought about both harmony and balance. Obi-Wan and Yoda pass into the force for Luke not Vader. Vader kills the sith and himself for Luke. Luke also brings back the Jedi by being trained by both Obi-Wan and Yoda. Everyone is sacraficing for LUke not Vader, even Vader himself.

How did Luke bring harmony and balance, though? He took no action that would do so; Vader did. While Luke was certainly his inspiration for doing so, Vader is the one who is actually killing the Sith, therefore he is the one who is actually bringing the prophecy to pass.

HOwever if one believes in the Chosen ONe - bring balance to the force, then the jedi must be destroyed, but in that case perhaps Sidious is the chosen one, he seems to be weakening the Jedi even before Anakin is born.

Actually, I do think that the old Jedi order had to be destroyed. They were stagnant, arrogant, secretive, and isolated from the rest of the universe they had sworn to protect. Their order, like most of the universe, had gotten corrupted over centuries and centuries of time. It was time to make a new start, and both orders had to go for that to happen. (The problem with Sidious is, of course, that he manages to delay the Sith side being wiped out for about 20 years...)

Anakin just doesn't fit.

Well, the prophecy (or rather, what we know of it) is pretty vague, so it's hard to say whether anyone is a specific fit or not. What we do know, is that the chosen one prophecy refers to the one who will bring balance to the force. How can this be anyone other than Anakin? It can't be Obi-Wan or Yoda, because they don't do anything towards bringing balance. It can't be Luke or Leia, because neither of them ever wind up doing any sort of balancing. Can't be Sidious, because he has no intention of balance; he wants to rule, pure and simple. The only force-sensative lead we have left is Vader/Anakin, and it has to be him - he does bring balance in the end by killing Palpatine and, in the process, himself.

(I would also argue for the "chosen one must be born of midis" arguement, but since I've covered that above I feel it's redundant to go through it again.)

The Chosen One prophecy can't mess up, it's destiny, that's what a prophecy is.

He does eventually bring balance. Just because

 

Well Said

 

True...

 

I think, in the end, Anakin is the Chosen One, although it took a while for that simple fact to be proven and achieved. You know what I mean? Like he was, but it took a while for it to come full circle...

 

I feel that Luke is the Chosen One.

Luke is the one that feels the conflict within Darth Vader. It is his faith in his father's love that turns Vader away from the Dark Side.

Anakin was a puppet to the Emperor. He was unwilling to do anything against him. He protected the Emperor out of duty. He did not bring ballance to the force. He throw an old man to his death. It is Luke's love for his lost father that brings balance to the force. Ben and Yoda could not see how it had to be done. They felt that Luke had to kill Darth Vader and the Emperor for the balance to be restored. The saving of Anakin Skywalker is what restored the balance.

That is was Luke Skywalker is the best Jedi of altime.

 

I think Anakin is the 'chosen one'. In the end he himself rids the galaxy of the Sith and the force is brought into balance.

It doesn't really matter how it happens, whether it was Luke or whoever. They helped out of-course but the act was carried out by the chosen one, Anakin Skywalker.

 

Anakin is indeed the Chosen One! The extremely high midichlorian count, being concieved without a father, and the prophecy itself goes hand in hand with Anakin being the Chosen One.

Luke, who is potentially as powerful as Anakin on the other hand resurrected the good in Anakin and made him reflect on his life, providing him with the foundation to bring balance to the Force.

 

So Luke's faith and love for his father is unimportant?

"The chosen one the boy maybe"-Yoda

That is a maybe, or maybe Qui-Gon was wrong.

 

"So Luke's faith and love for his father is unimportant?"

*sigh* No, of course it's important. Just like Qui-gon's death is important. Just like Obiwan's death is important. But in the end, it is Anakin who destroys the sith. He kills Palpatine, and lets himself die ("No, leave me.").

Cometgreen

 

Everything else aside, the basic question is, who killed Palpatine?
Vader.
Seeing Luke tortured was the motivation for it, but Luke didn't actually kill him.
Therefore, Anakin = Chosen One.

Anakin had no father.
Anakin is the Chosen One
Stormtroopers are clones

Why does no one believe Lucas?
If Kurtz or Kershner said these things, would you be more apt to believe them?

 

Cometgreen:

"But in the end, it is Anakin who destroys the sith. He kills Palpatine, and lets himself die ("No, leave me").

and

That_Wascally_Droid:

"Everything else aside, the basic question is, who killed Palpatine?
Vader."

I have to disagree with both of your points, I feel the question is who brought balance to the force. If Darth Vader's plan to turn Luke to the Dark Side and "rule the galaxy as father and son" had worked, the force would still not be balanced. Killing Palpatine is not what brought balance to the force. It was Anakin's return to the Light Side. Luke is the one who did this.

"Why does no one believe Lucas?"

I do believe Lucas. I believe the Lucas who wrote the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, not the Digital Screens are better GL. Luke is the hero of Star Wars, not Anakin.

 

Anakin is the Chosen One.

The prophecy mentions a being that is born into the galaxy via Midichlorians who will Balance the Force.

Anakin is born via Midichlorians, so that must mean him.

Plus he does the act that Balances the Force, he not only eliminates Palpatine but himself as well, therefore Balancing the Force.

Luke is merely the catalyst to Anakin fulfilling his destiny and creating the new Balance.

Without Luke there, Anakin would never have come to the realisation that Palpatine was not a good man, was purely a man without compassion and was the cancer on his (Vader's), his son's and the galaxy's lives.

Luke does play an important part, but not until the end.

Plus you do not create a Chosen One prophecy within a film which is specifically about Anakin Skywalker, without the two connecting.
Anakin must be the Chosen One, otherwise the PT as well as Anakin's sacrifice in the OT would be a waste of time.

 

In the story, there is a chosen one plot. Whether you consider it a bone tossed to the Campbell fans or not, it's there. You don't have to like it, but to say that there isn't a chosen one when in fact there's a whole subplot about it running through TPM and AOTC is a bit ridiculous.

I didn?t say it wasn?t there, I just think it isn?t true and is more a misdirection than a sub-plot. Again, just because a character says something doesn?t mean it?s true. Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan don?t believe it. They sense from the beginning that Anakin is dangerous and has much anger. The term ?Bring Balance? has positive implications, not the catastrophic ?end of the world as we know it? reality that we see take place.

You're getting though, Star Wars is a PG movie franchise. Character's don't normally lie in family movies - considering Anakin's fatherhood hasn't been challenged yet, it's a safe assumption that Anakin was concieved by midis. Also, I'm pretty sure Lucas has commented that there really was no father, and I think he knows better than either of us do when it comes to his own story

The PG rating is exactly why rape or unknown father isn?t brought up. ?Don?t normally lie? what movie have you been watching. Everyone in Star Wars lies; ?Certain Point of view?, Palpatine = Sidious, hiding a marriage ???? I think the conceived by midis is totally unbelievable. I?d like to see exactly where Lucas said that ?There really was no father?, no one seems to be able to quote a source for this. Even if he said that , doesn't mean as in he was conceived by midi's, could be he's a clone, like little Boba (they do have similar inclinations) or that he's just unknown.

Just because it's not blatantly said doesn't mean it's pure speculation. IMMEDIATLY after qui mentions that, Mace asks if he is refering to the prophecy of the chosen one. It hasn't come up in the conversation before, so we know he's not just jumping back to a previous point. Therefore, it can be assumed that the chosen one prophecy says one has to be born of midiclorians, and there really is no other conclusion one can arrive at from that scene.

No, you can?t assume that. Since we don?t know what the prophecy exactly says there could be many reasons why Mace said that. He also said a vergence in the force, perhaps that?s why Mace made that conclusion. So it is totally speculation at this point, which is all any of is doing anyway. When Episode III rolls around, one of us is going to look really smart the other foolish, or we?ll never know.

How did Luke bring harmony and balance, though? He took no action that would do so; Vader did. While Luke was certainly his inspiration for doing so, Vader is the one who is actually killing the Sith, therefore he is the one who is actually bringing the prophecy to pass.

He took no action and Vader did? Remember now I don?t believe in the prophecy so you?re asking me to prove something I don?t buy. But here we go: What does Vader do to bring balance - nothing except kill Sidious. Lets say that Anakin killed Sidious somewhere along the way leading up to Ep IV, that wouldn?t have brought balance. It took Luke to do it, not him directly but the forces around him, the rebellion, Obi-Wan, Yoda and even Vader. All the pieces had to fall into place so that there were only 3 left. The choice had to be made, now the question is I suppose who made the choice Luke or Vader. I say Luke, he could have killed Vader but chose not to (at which point I?m sure Obi-Wan and Yoda were screaming there heads off). If he had killed Vader then there would have been balance - One Sith and One JedI. What we are left with is Vader choosing to kill Sidious. Leaving one - Luke the JedI. Where?s the balance????

If Anakin were arrogant due to him believing he is the chosen one, why does he never mention it? Why is it only other characters who mention the prophecy? It doesn't seem to me that Anakin is very hung up on it. But Sidious doesn't start when Anakin becomes angry and power hungry; Sidious makes him a

 

"Plus he does the act that Balances the Force, he not only eliminates Palpatine but himself as well, therefore Balancing the Force."

"Luke does play an important part, but not until the end."

Well said, JK. Luke could not kill Palpatine, or he would have turned to the Dark Side, and there would have been greater imbalance. Anakin either had to be turned or be destroyed as well. Because of Luke's example and sacrifice, Anakin turned himself and destroyed the Emperor, thus achieving balance. Luke was the catalyst - a necessary part of the change, but Anakin was capable of it all along. He simply refused to believe himself capable of it. ("There is no conflict", "It is..too late for me, my son.")

 

"but the bigger epic story is about the fall of the Republic and its resurrection."

I didn't see the "Republic" at the end of ROTJ. The Saga is about the characters, not their politics. It comes down to individual choice, not party lines.

"Anakin never redeems himself, he saves his son and finds peace in death. There is no way that by that one act he can wipe out the carnage he carried out in the name of hatred and power against innocents."

Then what the hell was "the Force" thinking when it made him a Force ghost? The nerve of that power that binds us. ?

If I may quote a contempoary source, "The Force works in strange and mysterious ways." How many times has a church fallen on top of worshippers, and how many Christians killed or were killed in the Crusades?

That one act can redeem Anakin if that's what Lucas wants. He did ultimately fulfill the Prophecy.

 

I agree that MasterP and Obi-can are correct on this thread. I think Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!

 

Thank you Slayer for agreeing with me. Finally two people so far see the truth!!!

 

MeBeJedi Thanks

And SpartanSlayer care to elaborate on why you think that?

 

I disagree, the PT is told by following the life of one character - Anakin, the OT is told from Luke?s perspective, but the bigger epic story is about the fall of the Republic and its resurrection.


And Vader is Whom? Funny thing is, the movie ends with his death and redemption...
Disagree all you want, this is George Lucas's story and he himself has said that SW is about the journey of Anakin Skywalker (his rise fall and redemption)... No amount of Anakin hating will change this fact.

By the way what does the canonization of Obi-Wan refer to? Did I miss something here.

Latest example...

it takes for Obi-Wan to sacrafice himself, it takes Obi-Wan to live long enough to bring Luke in as a Jedi, it takes Obi-Wan sacraficing himself and becoming a force-ghost to guide Obi-Wan,


*gagging smiley*

 

Obi-Can:

How do we know he was born of the midi's -- because his mother dreamed up a fantasy because she can't admit she had a quickie with a stranger or was raped (being a slave I'm sure it happened).

And you have proof of this...where?

Sorry, but I'll believe what they tell me in the movies. "There was no father." "He is the Chosen One." "His midichlorian count is over 20,000."

I agree with everything Sophita said.

He throw an old man to his death.

FuzzyRatt: I agree with you about Luke being a hero, however--why do you think Vader killed the Emperor? Because he was going to get a cookie afterwards?

No--he did it because he loved his son.

Obi-Can:

What does Vader do to bring balance - nothing except kill Sidious.

Ummm...hel-LO, but I think that's a pretty damn big act.

Come on, you don?t find Anakin destructive (BAD)? He kills the Tuskens indiscriminately,

They killed his mother.

he destroys the Jedi order (which really bugs me),

Palpatine destroys the Order.

he aids Sidious in destroying Alderaan,

Tarkin destroys Alderaan.

He?s about as destructive as you get in my book.

Did you see Palpatine, by any chance? Maul?

Anakin never redeems himself, he saves his son and finds peace in death.

Did we see the same movie? ("I won't leave you, Father. I've got to save you." "You already have, Luke. You were right...and you were right about me...tell your sister...you were right.") That's a_g recalling the day she fell in love with Anakin Skywalker.

There is no way that by that one act he can wipe out the carnage he carried out in the name of hatred and power against innocents.

And you would have him do...what exactly? Use the Force to bring Antilles, Needa, and Ozzel back to life?

Anyone who thinks it is easy to repent is someone who has never repented.

There is nothing Anakin could do at that point--except repent. That will never be good enough for those who hate him, though.

Disagree all you want, this is George Lucas's story and he himself has said that SW is about the journey of Anakin Skywalker (his rise fall and redemption)... No amount of Anakin hating will change this fact.

*applauds Breezy*

*also looks for a gagging smiley for all the Obi-Wan worshipping I've seen around here*

As a side note: I like Obi-Wan, I really do. I think he's the most tragic figure of Star Wars. But some of the attitudes I've seen on the boards--the "Poor St. Obi-Wan, getting stuck with evil bratty satan-worshipping Anakin, let's build a shrine to him with a gold statue and read from the Obi Catechisms every morning and evening"--could almost make me hate him.

 

Weellllll.. you know at the end of the "special editions", the show a scene where monsterous statue of a robed figure is being pulled down....


and to paraphrase an old pot shot reply....


(re Anakin being the chosen one)

George said it.

I believe it.

That settles it....


(yeah right... but as I see this thread becoming the latest haven for 'Anakin bashing in new and creative ways' I'll slipp back into lurk mode....)

 

Breezy: You go girl!!!

And the "Anakin-bashing in new and creative ways" is soooo true... *rolls eyes*

The guy finds his mother tortured to death, is told he can't marry the woman he loves, and then gets boiled alive in hot lava. Let it go already.

 

Anakin never redeems himself, he saves his son and finds peace in death.

There is no way that by that one act he can wipe out the carnage he carried out in the name of hatred and power against innocents.

Very true there is no way one act can change all the evil acts that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader did BUT the fact that he repents and realises his wrongdoings thats what changes our view of Anakin, that he truely is a good person and that we shouldnt condemn him for life. He redeemed himself in actions and words, for the love of his son (and his daughter).


BTW:
he aids Sidious in destroying Alderaan

I don't even think the Emperor knew about Alderaan's destruction (although like Obi-Wan he would have felt it).
Besides why does nearly everyone always accuse Vader of destroying Alderaan?
Just because he may be the symbolic bad guy in the film doesn't mean you can associate every evil act with him.
He didn't like the sound of destroying Alderaan, and he knew that Leia would never give out the location of the Rebel Base.

Tarkin thought of the idea and he orchestrated its happenings.