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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by MasterP, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Actually, yes, DrE, it is worth a lot of money. LFL did, in fact, print posters that said "Revenge of the Jedi" which they had in movie theaters across the country, as well as had movie trailers with that title (you can see them on the definitive LD).
     
  2. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    " Why do you think there are 3 sides?

    Okay, so we have (put very simply) :
    The Living Force which is basically about living in the moment.
    and
    The Unifying Force which is about seeing the future."


    Two aspects of the Light Side (Living/Unifying), and the Dark Side. Just splitting hairs, is all. ;) Obviously, Yoda and Qui-gon are at odds over their own, individual interpretations, so there must be a considerable difference between the two.

    "When Vader sees Luke dying by the Emperor's hand his emotions are so powerful that he can't ignore them. This would seem to indicate that he has returned to using the Living Force. But I don't believe so."

    Interestingly enough, almost everything Vader says about the future is what he's told by Palpatine.

    ESB
    "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen it."
    "It is your destiny"


    ROTJ
    Palpatine: "Patience my friend. In time he will seek you out, and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force."
    _________________________

    Palpatine: "Then you must go to the sanctuary moon and wait for him."

    Vader: "He will come to me?"

    Palpatine: "I have foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you and you will bring him before me."
    _________________________

    "Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen"
    _________________________

    "The Emperor has been expecting you."
    _________________________

    "If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will."

    _________________________

    He's so focused on what will happen, that he doesn't think about what is possible right now! Because of this, he becomes a slave to the future. Perhaps this is the "power" that Palps has over him. I've always believed that Vader was actually more powerful than Palps, but was too scared of being found out to consider doing anything against him.

    Now, in ESB, Vader realizes that Palps didn't forsee Luke destroying the DS, as well as forsee Luke coming to Endor. Vader finally sees the "chink" in Palp's power. Perhaps Luke, in some way, becomes a "blind spot" for Palps, something which Vader decides to use to his advantage.

    When it becomes clear that Luke has failed to kill Palpatine, and will be dead in a matter of moments, Vader realizes that he is out of time, and cannot wait for the future to come. Once Luke is dead, there'll be no one to distract Palps, or come in on his "blind side", and so Vader must act now before he truly becomes a servant to the future forever.


    "Actually, yes, DrE, it is worth a lot of money. LFL did, in fact, print posters that said "Revenge of the Jedi" which they had movie theaters across the country hang in their windows, as well as had movie trailers with that title (you can see them on the definitive LD)."

    Agreed. It was worthless at the time, but would now be considered a collectors item. And yes, the "revenge" trailer looks pretty good on my LD. :D
     
  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    For those who are interested, Bad Radio has an interesting post on the subject in Balance of the Force.
     
  4. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    MBJ_
    When it becomes clear that Luke has failed to kill Palpatine, and will be dead in a matter of moments, Vader realizes that he is out of time, and cannot wait for the future to come. Once Luke is dead, there'll be no one to distract Palps, or come in on his "blind side", and so Vader must act now before he truly becomes a servant to the future forever.

    I don't really agree with that, for me this is a moment which is all about emotion, I don't think he thinks rationally or considers the Force in any way, his son is there dying in front of him, philosophy and religion have no meaning for him at that point. He simply becomes a father again.

    Interestingly - Anakin's refusal to let Luke die is another form of him being unable to let go. Which is of course what Lucas says ends up causing his fall to the dark side.

    Do you think this 'balance' business is actually about balancing the dark side and the light side? It doesn't seem to be to me.

    gez
     
  5. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "I don't really agree with that, for me this is a moment which is all about emotion, I don't think he thinks rationally or considers the Force in any way, his son is there dying in front of him, philosophy and religion have no meaning for him at that point."

    And I would also agree with that, to a point. Anakin is clearly having misgivings about what to do while Luke is being attacked. There are several minutes that pass between Vader being disarmed and his attack on Palpatine. Everything that Vader has been waiting for has failed. He believed that Luke would destroy Palpatine, based on Palpatine's own prediction! Vader knows that Palps was mistaken about Luke on Endor, what if Palps was wrong about Luke destroying him as well? Of course, the vision wasn't very clear - It is Anakin who kills Palpatine, but Luke was an important key to this equation. Luke does "destroy" Palpatine, but not in an immediate, physical sense. The vision put the focus on Luke, and took it off of Vader (will of the Force, remember), thus Vader was given an opportunity to act.

    My point being, there's plenty of time for all this to be running through Vader's mind before he finally decides to go after Palpatine. He's clearly stewing in his own juices, running through possibilities in his mind, before he finally acts. He did this very same thing with his mother and Obi-wan as well. In fact, had it not been for Padme, Anakin would never have gone to Geonosis. Similarly, had it not been for Luke, Anakin would never had killed Palpatine. What would have started out as rational thought finally coalesced into a need to act, subconciously driven by all of these thoughts.

    "Interestingly - Anakin's refusal to let Luke die is another form of him being unable to let go. Which is of course what Lucas says ends up causing his fall to the dark side."

    Actually, Lucas says that greed is Anakin's biggest downfall. His sacrifice for Luke is quite the opposite - a selflish act with no clear pay-off (he doesn't know about becoming one with the Force.) Otherwise, if he knows this act will "redeem" him, then it's really not redemption. This would also fall under my reasoning that Anakin know longer believes himself to be the "Chosen One". Like Neo, having the knowledge isn't enough - it is the act itself that makes the difference. This is why Luke is kept in the dark. If Luke is the "Chosen One", as Yoda and Obi-wan appear to believe, then he cannot be told this - he must simply follow the will of the Force. Anakin fails to do this until ROTJ.

    I also thought about Anakin's other line - "I will keep people from dying". This could refer to himself, and it could also refer to Luke. It would be interesting if Anakin doesn't prevent anyone from dying in Ep.III (such as Padme), because it would be another case of Anakin having a vision that doesn't come true until much later in life.

    He certainly doesn't keep the Jedi from dying, so it would make sense that he starts to doubt his own visions as well, and subsequently puts more faith into Palpatine's (for good reason).

    "Do you think this 'balance' business is actually about balancing the dark side and the light side? It doesn't seem to be to me."

    I accept it as simply eliminating the Sith. Palpatine is about to control the galaxy using the Force, the complete opposite of what it is intended for. The Force is supposed to serve and support the galaxy, and all its live. This is why Anakin was created - to eliminate the threat to all life in the galaxy.
     
  6. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Darth-Stryphe,

    >>> He also states that Anakin causes the inbalance, but despite this, it's Palpatine's death that sets the balance right?"
    Me: Where does he state that? I can?t see that in the quotes MeBeJedi has posted at all.
    >>>Several pages back. It's not in the one MeBe posted most recently.


    OK- think I?ve found the quote, and I think you?ve misread/misinterpreted it;

    GL: The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.?

    So it?s the ?Dark Forces? that take over Anakin which destroy the balance- in other words, the Dark Side causes the imbalance- not Anakin himself.

    >>> Oh, (side note) I love Lucas's quote about Anakin being the only one powerful enough to kill Palpatine -- right after Vader lost a duel.
    Me: And this? Again, I can?t see it?
    >>>>You're going to make me go back through a lot of old pages, aren't you? What, you trying to make me work?


    Something like that ;)

    Anyway, I did the work myself 8-} and found that quote too, but you seem to have missed off an important bit at the end;

    >>> In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him

    >>> Consider this, the Jedi have been around in all six movies, yes? Definitely in the PT - Ben in ANH, Yoda in ESB and ROJ. So the return of a Jedi from the old Republic isn't a return, not unless you change the title to "Return of a Jedi."

    Man, what is it with you and ?the Jedi?/?a Jedi? arguments? 8-}

    Anyway, haven't you seen the end of the film- where Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda all Return?
    [face_silly[

    >>>> Also, consider, if Anakin is the Jedi who returns, the movie would best be called "Return of the Jedi for about Two Minutes and then They're Gone Again", because Anakin didn't make it out of the movie alive.

    Yes, but the point is that even without the ?chosen one? thing, Anakin Skywalker (as opposed to Darth Vader) ?coming back? was always the central storyline of ROTJ (well, once Luke and the crew had left Tatooine anyway?) Proving that there was still a good man alive behind the mask was what Luke?s ?mission? was all about.

    (Besides, it would never fit on the cinema hoardings?)

    >>> [Revenge of the Jedi] was never the "working title". It was intended to get counterfeit merchandise off the market. After the bootleggers spent enormous sums of money on fake shirts and such, Lucas changed the name. After that, fake goods were worthless, and easy to spot.

    According to ?Behind the Magic? (as I recall it, anyway), it was a working title which was changed because GL deemed revenge too ?un-Jedi? a concept, so the fact that it flushed out a stack of bootleg merchandise was apparently a side effect, rather than the original intention.

    >>> My point is, if Anakin doesn't reach knight status, he's not a true Jedi. Why would I think this? Yoda wouldn't acknowledge Luke as a Jedi until he graduate.

    I think the point in ROTJ was just that Luke had been given a very, very small amount of training to be calling himself a fully fledged Jedi and getting all full of himself, rather than some sort of insight into the Jedi hierarchy?

    Me: If this ?rule? is true, then please explain how you would justify the Dark Side never being properly explained in the films, and only referred to in passing in the original, stand-alone film?
    Is the OT badly written?

    >>>>In the OT, it is only necessary to know about the DS that (a) it seduces good Jedi
     
  7. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Well, you insist on focusing on the more negative of my two interpretations. Do you consider Obi-wan a "liar" with the "certain point of view" out that was taken?

    Absolutely. I can understand why he did it, but that doesn't mean his speech to Luke in ANH was truthful.


    As far as the PT goes, Yoda can't find his arse with both hands, and is being led by the nose by Palpatine.

    LOL! True.


    "So, the Dark Side is more powerful and stronger, but it destroys you"

    "But the later doesn't change the former."

    Meaning what?


    Meaning just because it destroys you doesn't mean it's less or equally powerful. It is more powerful. You can wipe out the entire Jedi Order with only a handful of these guys.


    "How do you mean? Intent to show Vader crashing a star destroyer into Corsucant, or intent to show the heroes being useless? If the former, yes - obviously not, otherwise he would have filmed it that way, if the later - it may not have been his intent, but if we are simply to take Lucas at his word from the quotes that have been presented in this thread, that is the result."

    What?!? The Prophecy could not be fulfilled in a vacuum.


    I wasn't saying it would be fulfilled in a vacuum. You've missed my point.


    "Both took amounts of forcelighting intended to kill, but only one died. That says something about power."

    What do you mean "both"? Anakin took a quick shot in AOTC. Palpatine gave Luke several bursts before finally saying "Now, you will die". The impression I got was that he was torturing Luke before trying to kill him. Then again, I don't believe Force lightning is that powerful to begin with.


    Vader was beaten down and weakened by Luke in the duel, yes? But Luke himself was not really hurt. Palp then kicks Luke's butt with some force lightening, as you said, just to inflict pain and injury, not to kill him. Then he says "and now you will die". Now he's ready to kill Luke. At this point, both Luke and Vader are hurt. Palp then gives Luke about ten seconds of force lightening meant to kill, Vader grabs Palp and throws him down a well. As he does this, Palp gives Vader about three to four seconds of forcelightening, I'm assuming also an amount meant to kill.

    So, Vader and Luke both injured take lethal amount of force lightening, one for about ten seconds, another for about half that. Which one dies? Vader. Aside from the initial shock, Luke appears to be fine.


    the lightning didn't kill Anakin, it destroyed his life-support suit! The suit became his Achilles heel

    Possibly. My point is power had nothing to do with who killed Palpatine. For whatever reason, Vader took less of a beating than Luke but died where Luke lived. You yourself admitted he probably didn't even use the force to kill the Emporer. Vader had only the element of the surprise. So, if Lucas wanted to show that Anakin was the only one powerful enough to kill Palpatine, he failed there. However, Lucas did also mention that Anakin was the only one who could get close enough. In that area, he suceeds perfectly. The Emporer didn't see it coming. But that's all Vader/Anakin had going for him, and I still say that only completes half the prophecy.


    The final battle in ROTJ is "the time of great despair", because that's when we see the "Chosen One" act (regardless of whether you believe that to be Luke or Anakin.)

    Even more so if you believe it is Luke and Anakin ;)


    Not at all. As I stated before, Lucas took the Prophecy out of the OT for simplicity's sake, but the framework for the Prophecy still exists, as shown by my last largest post.

    It's not bad writing leaving it out of the OT. It's bad writing leaving it out of the PT. What he tells us about the prophecy is mininal, and leaves room for ample interuptation that Anakin wasn't the one. If this were not true, Lucas would not need to clarify this in interviews. You don't see him going around clarifying that Anakin really is Luke and Leia's father, because the movies
     
  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "Well, you insist on focusing on the more negative of my two interpretations. Do you consider Obi-wan a "liar" with the "certain point of view" out that was taken?"

    "Absolutely. I can understand why he did it, but that doesn't mean his speech to Luke in ANH was truthful."

    Okay, Yoda was upset to find out that Luke found out the "truth" about Vader from Vader.

    Yoda - "Told you, he did. Unfortunate, this is."

    Clearly, Yoda is also holding information back from Luke, in support of Obi-wan's "lie", yet you accuse me of calling Yoda a liar. I've already explained why Yoda did this, but it would appear that you disagree with my assertion.

    "As far as the PT goes, Yoda can't find his arse with both hands, and is being led by the nose by Palpatine."

    "LOL! True."


    Not quite so "true". You changed my spelling! :p

    "Meaning just because [the Dark Side] destroys you doesn't mean it's less or equally powerful. It is more powerful. You can wipe out the entire Jedi Order with only a handful of these guys."

    First of all, I never said the Dark Side was less powerful. I don't think Scott3eyez meant that the fact that the Dark Side would destroy you made it less powerful, either.

    That being said, there are consequences for this power. It's like red-lining your car - sure, it'll kick everyone's ass for now, but it isn't going to do it for long. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Anakin has to wear a full-body suit as a result of seeking this power, and Palpatine looks like a prune as a result of using this power. It really hasn't done either of them much good, even in the short term.

    "So, if Lucas wanted to show that Anakin was the only one powerful enough to kill Palpatine, he failed there. However, Lucas did also mention that Anakin was the only one who could get close enough. In that area, he suceeds perfectly. The Emporer didn't see it coming. But that's all Vader/Anakin had going for him, and I still say that only completes half the prophecy."

    While I do see your point, I don't see the point of the....point. :D

    If anything, Vader's ability to function while being electrocuted was certainly better than Luke's, who couldn't get his ass....arse :p , off the ground. Luke would not have been able to withstand the shocks long enough to even get close to Palps, much less pick him up. Even if Vader's suit didn't help, realize that this means Vader was 1) using one less hand to lift and carry Palps, while 2) sustaining vast amounts of tremendous Force lightning, and 3) trying to walk and breathe in a suit that was no longer helping him walk and breathe while he carried Palps one-handed in a storm of Force lightning.

    Luke had none of these handicaps, yet he was powerless and defenseless. Again, "power" isn't just kicking someone's ass. Vader finally showed the strength of will to do what he needed to do.

    "The final battle in ROTJ is "the time of great despair", because that's when we see the "Chosen One" act (regardless of whether you believe that to be Luke or Anakin.)"

    "Even more so if you believe it is Luke and Anakin"


    Smart-ass! :p As I said before, the Prophecy couldn't be fulfilled in a vacuum.

    "It's bad writing leaving it out of the PT. What he tells us about the prophecy is mininal, and leaves room for ample interuptation that Anakin wasn't the one. If this were not true, Lucas would not need to clarify this in interviews. You don't see him going around clarifying that Anakin really is Luke and Leia's father, because the movies cover this in sufficant detail."

    Tell that to the people posting threads about supposed Padme's infidelity with Obi-wan. I don't have a problem with the films giving a loose interpretation of the Prophecy, while the director has a more refined idea about what is really what. The characters nor the audience will never know everything that the director knows. I've seen several films where the
     
  9. FuzzyRatt

    FuzzyRatt Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 16, 2003
    I would like to change the direction of the debate for a minute.

    What has Anakin Skywalker done in TPM or AOTC to show that he is the Chosen One?

    What has he done that no other Jedi in these two film could not do?

    I for one have not seen him do anything that was even cool, much less unique to him.
     
  10. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "What has Anakin Skywalker done in TPM or AOTC to show that he is the Chosen One?"

    ...and once again, TPM has nothing to do with showing Anakin as the "Chosen One". According to either Prophecy, the "Chosen One" performs a crucial act. Anything before or after that act is not known. Neither Prophecy states anything about the history or the "lifestyle" of the "Chosen One". There are small clues (virgin birth, high midichlorians, exceptional piloting skills), but he has not yet arrived at the time and place of the fulfillment of the Prophecy until ROTJ. The Saga merely shows us how events conspired to create the circumstances under which the Prophecy will ultimately be fulfilled.

    Minority Report is another example. Everything Cruise does is to prevent his "destiny" from happening, though it turns out that everything he does brings him closer and closer to it. Even in The Matrix, when Neo first decides to take on Smith, he gets his ass kicked, and tries to run off. What he didn't realize is, despite this early failure, he is still the One, and his time of destiny is still coming.

    Having children who will someday help him fulfill the Prophecy is just one more event that has to take place before the Prophecy can be fulflled. Otherwise, there's really no point to explaining so much about Anakin's "fall from grace", if not to contrast it against his subsequent actions in ROTJ.

    "I for one have not seen him do anything that was even cool, much less unique to him."

    I guess you've not seen the end of ROTJ? ?[face_plain]


    BTW, I found this interesting nugget from the Annotated Screenplays...

    George Lucas: By the time we got down to doing the third film, we'd had so many difficulties with people trying to report stuff with the media and the press and everything that we called the film Revenge of the Jedi to throw people off. The title was always intended to be Return of the Jedi, but we made the film under the code name Revenge of the jedi. Unfortunately, what happened is Fox started promoting the film before we could tell them not to use the title. We were lucky that they didn't start promoting the film under the title Blue Harvest, because we were also using that as a bogus title.
     
  11. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    >>> Sorry. I'm so damned sick and tired of the "numbers" theory. The numbers are always different, and it never makes any sense.

    ?You refer to the prophecy of the one who helps the one who will bring balance to the number of people who can use either side of the Force? to bring? balance to the? erm??


    >>> It's not bad writing leaving it out of the OT. It's bad writing leaving it out of the PT. What he tells us about the prophecy is mininal, and leaves room for ample interuptation that Anakin wasn't the one.

    I don?t think it does though. I mean, look at the scene where we first hear about the Chosen One;

    Qui Gon: I have encountered a vergence around the Force.
    Mace: Located around a person?
    Qui Gon: A boy. His cells have the highest concentration of midichlorians I have ever seen in a life form. It?s possible he was conceived by the midichlorians.
    Mace: You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it is this boy?

    So what is there in this dialogue that makes you think the Prophecy could be talking about Luke? Or what is there about Luke that makes you think that this is something to do with him?
    Although we don?t know anything about his midichlorians, I think it?s a fairly safe bet that Episode III won?t contradict the theory that Luke was born in the usual way with egg and sperm cells and suggest that he was conceived by the midichlorians. (Actually, I?m really hoping that Episode III reveals that neither Skywalker kid has a particularly high midichlorians count. I think it would make the whole thing much more interesting.)


    >>> I would like to change the direction of the debate for a minute.
    What has Anakin Skywalker done in TPM or AOTC to show that he is the Chosen One?
    What has he done that no other Jedi in these two film could not do?
    I for one have not seen him do anything that was even cool, much less unique to him.


    Well, what are you expecting the Chosen One to be doing?

    Let?s take a step back and look at what the ?Chosen One? actually is.


    The ?Chosen One? is the subject of a prophecy regarding one who will ?bring balance to the Force.? Apparently, if this prophecy is true then the Chosen One is the only one who can do this- nobody else can do it for him.

    Nothing about this implies any sort of special Jedi powers. Indeed, it seems from TPM alone that there?s nothing in the prophecy indicating that the Chosen One has to be trained as a Jedi, otherwise Mace and Yoda wouldn?t be against his training (even though Yoda acknowledges that Anakin may well be the Chosen One.)
    In fact, there are some (me included) who think that Qui Gon made a grave mistake in taking Anakin away to be trained, and he should never have become a Jedi. (Yoda also seems to be of this opinion in TPM.) My reasoning is that if he was never trained, his ability to see the future, manipulate the Force etc. simply wouldn?t be there, so the opportunity for him to choose a different path wouldn?t present itself to him. The temptations of the Dark Side of the Force wouldn?t be presented to him.

    Now, the existence of a prophecy implies the existence of a prophet. This prophet (presumably a skilled Jedi) has apparently seen way into the future, and passed on what they have seen.

    Now, factor the previous idea into the prophecy itself (the idea that giving someone knowledge of the future is giving them the ability to change it), and imagine if Qui Gon had never heard about the prophecy- would he have been so eager to have trained Anakin?

    I have yet to see anything, in or out of the films, that suggests that the Chosen One should have some sort of special powers, or should be able to do something no other Jedi could do. Everything about Anakin revolves around the way other people look at him- they think that he is going to do something good for the Jedi (ie. bringing balance), meaning that when he turns to the Dark Side, he will be betraying all of those who put their faith in him. (And also explaini
     
  12. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    The following is only a response to Scott's early post to me. I'll get to the rest later.

    Oh, and nice of you to join us again, Fuzzy ;)


    So it?s the ?Dark Forces? that take over Anakin which destroy the balance- in other words, the Dark Side causes the imbalance- not Anakin himself.

    GL: Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy.

    So when Anakin is taken over by the dark side, the balance is destroyed. Whether you buy into common-modern day philosphy of "victimhood" and say "oh, poor Anakin, he didn't mean to, he was forced him too!" or you can take the approach "he made decisions, he became Vader by choice", either way you're still left with the same conclusion from GL's quote - when Anakin became Vader the balance was destroyed.

    As GL said: Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy.

    (Oh, and yes, that was the quote, thanks because when I went looking for it, I couldn't find it).




    Anyway, I did the work myself and found that quote too, but you seem to have missed off an important bit at the end;

    >>> In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him


    See my above rebuttal to MeBe, I covered all that there.


    Man, what is it with you and ?the Jedi?/?a Jedi? arguments?

    Uhm - because it's true? ;)


    Anyway, haven't you seen the end of the film- where Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda all Return?
    [face_silly[


    Oh, right! That explains it! 8-}


    Yes, but the point is that even without the ?chosen one? thing, Anakin Skywalker (as opposed to Darth Vader) ?coming back? was always the central storyline of ROTJ (well, once Luke and the crew had left Tatooine anyway?) Proving that there was still a good man alive behind the mask was what Luke?s ?mission? was all about.

    I could argue this point, but it's starting to veer a bit too far off topic. We'll clash posts on this in another thread.


    so the fact that it flushed out a stack of bootleg merchandise was apparently a side effect, rather than the original intention.

    More or less. There are a number of legimate collectables with "Revenge" on it, aside from the poster DrE mentioned or the LD I mentioned earlier. Action figures that had early mail-ins for Admiral Ackbar also mentioned "Revenge" and the ANH 1982 re-release poster has a strip along the bottom that says "With special preview of Revenge of the Jedi." I'm sure there are probably other things.


    >>> My point is, if Anakin doesn't reach knight status, he's not a true Jedi. Why would I think this? Yoda wouldn't acknowledge Luke as a Jedi until he graduate.

    I think the point in ROTJ was just that Luke had been given a very, very small amount of training to be calling himself a fully fledged Jedi and getting all full of himself, rather than some sort of insight into the Jedi hierarchy?


    Possibly, but we never see the PT masters refer to padawan's as Jedi. We see non-Jedi refer to padawan's as Jedi, but not masters.


    Right- and everything that is necessary to know about the prophecy is there in TPM and AOTC- that it refers to ?one who will bring balance to the Force?, and that the Chosen One must choose the correct path if he is to bring balance, and that, according to anyone who knows anything about it, it?s apparently Anakin.

    Except that the Jedi now believes (in the OT) the Chosen One is Luke (in a sense, maybe not the one the prophecy spoke of, but the closest thing - possibly even the Chosen One). We are shown in the movie that they are right about Luke, as in, he is there last hope and that he fulfills his destiny, the destiny the Jedi foresaw, but if they were wrong about him being the Chosen One, in spite of this, this needs to be shown.


    >>> So, the Dark Side is more powerful and stronger, but it destroys you
    >>>>But the l
     
  13. FuzzyRatt

    FuzzyRatt Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 16, 2003
    So in the end, Anakin is the chosen one because, only he could pick up the Emperor and throw him down a shaft.

    It's all so clear now. ;)
     
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "So when Anakin is taken over by the dark side, the balance is destroyed. Whether you buy into common-modern day philosphy of "victimhood" and say "oh, poor Anakin, he didn't mean to, he was forced him too!" or you can take the approach "he made decisions, he became Vader by choice", either way you're still left with the same conclusion from GL's quote - when Anakin became Vader the balance was destroyed.

    As GL said: Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy."


    And this is not unreasonable. After Anakin turns, the Jedi are eliminated. However, Palpatine has manipulated events to head in this direction in the first place! There's no reason to believe that Palptine couldn't have continue his rise to power without Anakin - Anakin merely sped up the process. At the very least, Palpatine now has an army of 1.2 million clonetroopers to wipe out the Jedi. Did you think Vader killed every single Jedi on his own?

    "Except that the Jedi now believes (in the OT) the Chosen One is Luke (in a sense, maybe not the one the prophecy spoke of, but the closest thing - possibly even the Chosen One). We are shown in the movie that they are right about Luke, as in, he is there last hope and that he fulfills his destiny, the destiny the Jedi foresaw, but if they were wrong about him being the Chosen One, in spite of this, this needs to be shown."

    George Lucas: I conceived the scene so that you would not know if Vader was lying or telling the truth, so the audience could walk away saying, "He is a bad guy, he lied." You have to have an escape hatch for kids psychologically so they can deny it.

    Irvin Kershner: Now, I was talking with kids, and I discovered that children below the age of nine say, "No, no, he's not [Luke's] father, he's lying." About ten on, they accept it. Ambiguity is a necessary part of a good story; if you eliminate ambiguity, you're not touching on the unconscious of the audience. WHat you want is the audience doing their own film while they're watching it so that everybody is having a slightly different experience."

    It need not be pointed out, because the prophecy works either way, even in an apparent "absence" of the Prophecy. A lack of explanation for it doesn't mean it doesn't belong. Case in point...

    George Lucas: One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from yoda; Yoda told him how to do that. We don't ever get to see how he does it, but the idea of retaining your identity after you've passed on is something that Ben learned as a Jedi."

    Force ghosts exist, even though we've not been told how this is possible, or where it fits in. It turns out to be something that you either ignore, or accept merely for the story's sake, but to deny that it exists in the films because there is no explanation for it doesn't make sense, especially after I listed all the scenes that do point to the Prophecy, however roundabout they may be. Some one has yet to explain or counter my examples.

    Within the films, the characters simply don't know everything the audience knows. Outside the films, the audience simply doesn't know everything the director knows. Nonetheless, the films still work on several levels because of this dichotomy of knowledge. Lucas wanted the films to be simple to watch, but that doesn't mean that background information cannot be taken into account after the fact, especially when that information still fits withing the framework of the films.
     
  15. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Okay,

    I'm gonna just say what I think.
    This whole 'balance of the force' thing seems pretty vague to me, maybe it's bad writing or maybe it's just always meant to be vague. But it would seem hard to make any conclusions about the 'Chosen One' without being sure what 'balancing the force' means, that is his job after all.

    I?m not so sure that it?s meant to be about getting rid of the Sith.
    There?s 2 sides to the Force ? The Unifying Force and the Living Force.
    There's this prophecy, QGJ thinks anakin is the Chosen One, then QG dies, the Sith return.
    Yoda and the JC try and direct Anakin, eventually he will be manipulated by Sidious.
    I believe when Anakin turned to the dark side Yoda and Obi concluded the prophecy was nonsense all along. They tried training Luke for the job to kill the Sith, manipulating him and keeping him in the dark about certain things.
    Sidious did the same with Anakin.
    , I think they've all been using the Unifying Force too much, and that's why the Force is out of balance. The Sith are evil but what brought them about - I think it's this exploitation of the Unifying Force which has led to all this. The JC have behaved arrogantly too.

    When Luke and Vader duel in ROTJ Yoda and Ben and Sidious all want him to kill Vader.

    But he doesn't.
    He chooses not to.
    I think that is still the key moment. Luke refuses to go along with this whole puppet show. And above all this talk of destiny, will of the Force and power of the Dark side - Luke just says "no". He refuses to play the pawn of either side. And Anakin sees the light - that it isn't all pre-determined..

    Obviously destroying the Sith is important, but spiritually speaking just destroying the enemy isn?t enough. The Sith are destroyed but the ?balance? is really achieved because of the forgiveness , the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.
    Neither Yoda nor Obi believed Anakin could be redeemed, but Luke did.
    It?s Luke?s selfless act which is the key.
    The redemption of Anakin?s soul is more important than the destruction of evil.
    The reconciliation between Anakin and Luke. Luke will return the balance with his life and a more balanced teaching of the Force, a teaching that will be more like QG?s, less exploitation of the Force .

    Perhaps it all comes down to this : The Chosen One is the one who chooses.

    .

     
  16. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "But it would seem hard to make any conclusions about the 'Chosen One' without being sure what 'balancing the force' means, that is his job after all."

    From the movie's point of view, yes. From the director's point of view, no.

    "There's this prophecy, QGJ thinks anakin is the Chosen One, then QG dies, the Sith return."

    But the Sith never left...

    "I think they've all been using the Unifying Force too much, and that's why the Force is out of balance. The Sith are evil but what brought them about - I think it's this exploitation of the Unifying Force which has led to all this. The JC have behaved arrogantly too."

    I would accept that reasoning.

    "But he doesn't.
    He chooses not to.
    I think that is still the key moment. Luke refuses to go along with this whole puppet show. And above all this talk of destiny, will of the Force and power of the Dark side - Luke just says "no". He refuses to play the pawn of either side. And Anakin sees the light - that it isn't all pre-determined..

    Obviously destroying the Sith is important, but spiritually speaking just destroying the enemy isn?t enough. The Sith are destroyed but the ?balance? is really achieved because of the forgiveness , the redemption of Anakin Skywalker."


    So isn't Anakin's choice "not to go along with this puppet show" significant also? Luke showed him it was possible, and so Anakin is able to do it.

    "It's Luke's selfless act which is the key."

    But his act is meaningless with Anakin's choice.

    "The redemption of Anakin's soul is more important than the destruction of evil."

    What good is a "good" Anakin if the galaxy is still under the rule of the Sith? ?[face_plain] Luke's act alone does not save the galaxy.

    "Luke will return the balance with his life and a more balanced teaching of the Force"

    Good thing for him Anakin "chose" to prevent the Emperor from killing him, thus allowing Luke to do so.

    "Perhaps it all comes down to this : The Chosen One is the one who chooses."

    And that's exactly what Anakin did.
     
  17. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    MBJ-
    From the movie's point of view, yes. From the director's point of view, no.

    Well I'm not sure what Lucas's current point of view is on this is.

    So isn't Anakin's choice "not to go along with this puppet show" significant also? Luke showed him it was possible, and so Anakin is able to do it.

    Absolutely. I wasn't trying to play down Anakin's actions.

    What good is a "good" Anakin if the galaxy is still under the rule of the Sith? Luke's act alone does not save the galaxy

    Yes it's important to destroy the Sith, but even more important is that anakin be redeemed. That's what I think it's about ultimately.
    I just think that the key moment is when Luke decides not to be manipulated anymore.
    He makes a choice and then Anakin makes a choice.

    g

     
  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "I just think that the key moment is when Luke decides not to be manipulated anymore."

    But Anakin doesn't change until watching Luke suffer for his choice. The choice itself wasn't as important as the consequences of that choice. When Vader sees Palps killing Luke, and realizes that this could have been himself twenty years ago, then Vader makes the "choice" to turn.

    At this point in time, Luke is just twitching and screaming.

    "Well I'm not sure what Lucas's current point of view is on this is"

    Well, at some point, you might want to go back to July 9th. Here's a quick summary of key quotes...

    Cut magazine interview

    "GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

    1. In general, what will the New Trilogy be about?

    "Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him. As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." (6/18/99)."

    Lastly..

    "The first film [EPISODE 1] starts with the last age of the Republic," Lucas says to open the docu. "...Which it's getting tired. It's getting old. It's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith who are now becoming a force. And in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy destined to be very significant in bringing balance back to the force and the Republic. In the second film [EPISODE 2] we get into more of that turmoil. We get into the clone wars. It's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic. It's sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. It's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions, of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with. When we will get into the third film [EPISODE 3] where he's seduced to the dark side. Which brings us to films [EPISODES] 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. In EPISODE 2 we get to go back to the homestead and we get to see Owen Lars and Aunt Beru 25 years earlier. We get to see who these people were before they existed in EPISODES 4, 5, and 6."

    --George Lucas

    This is from the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.


    Pretty cut and dried.
     
  19. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Wow. I am thoroughly impressed with MeBeJedi's assertions. It takes a lot of dedication to stick to a point and sell it. I happen to agree with just about everything that he has to say except for one idea - nobody was banking a dime on anyone being the Chosen One after the Emperor's New Order was in place. The stakes were simply too high.

    I think that once the OT rolls around, the good guys have essentially lost all hope in the reliance on a prophecy. The prophecy was never specific enough to begin with. For all intents and purposes, they were better off believing that Luke was the Chosen One acting as their "New Hope". The bad guys probably didn't give it much thought either. Like any historical despot, they had convinced themselves that what they were doing was right for the people. All that mattered was that Palps had the best known candidate to be the "Chosen One" on his side. And he just happened to be the father of the second most likely candidate. More power to him.

    Nobody?.and I mean absolutely nobody?..knew whether the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force was in motion - unless?.that is?.you were to ask Qui Gon. All the players could do was act appropriately to preserve the perceptions of their own destinies.
     
  20. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    I posted this short essay on another thread a couple of days ago. Enjoy.



    Qui Gon was convinced that Anakin was the Chosen One.

    No other Jedi believed in Anakin as firmly as Qui Gon did. Not even Obi Wan. Throughout Anakin's apprenticeship, Obi Wan may have leaned in the direction that Ani was the Chosen One, but any hope was likely destroyed after he turned to the Dark Side, the Jedi Order was eradicated, and the oppressive Galactic Empire became the New Order. If anything, when the opportunity arose, Kenobi may have convinced himself that Luke was the galaxy's new hope and may actually be the real
    Chosen One. Even upon returning as a spirit on Dagobah, he counseled Luke by telling him that the only way to succeed is by defeating Darth Vader. Obviously, Obi Wan no longer believed that the prophecy had any more pertinence in Anakin's life if he was to be killed by his own son.

    Following his isolation out beyond the Dune Sea, it was likely that Yoda and Kenobi seriously re-examined the meaning behind the prophecy, and although they may have held only a slight glimmer of hope that Anakin was still intended to be the
    Chosen One, they were forced to reform their interpretation of the prophecy into that of one of the following: A) an untrue oracle no longer bearing an relevance to their era, B) just a whimsical hope of good fortune for some future generation, or C) if fortune actually presented itself (for example, the emergence of a New Hope), then the Chosen One might actually be the direct offspring of the person with the highest midichlorian count and was destined to destroy both his father and the Emperor to restore balance.

    The Jedi of the PT, in general, were likely very suspicious of Qui Gon's claim that Anakin was the Chosen One because they would essentially be giving in to the sentiment that the Force had come out of balance under their watch. Despite the possible reemergence of the Sith Order, the Jedi were still in denial that they could possibly be removed from power right from under their noses. Besides, the prophecy was vague to begin with, so placing too much hope on one individual would not be a prudent action given that no one understands what ultimately the will of the Force has in store to bring ultimate balance.

    Because of the uncertainty of what the prophecy truly meant, Palpatine likely was made aware of Anakin's origins and potential destiny as the Jedi Council kept him abreast of his development. He felt that preservation of order and technological advancement and fulfillment (by way of Death Stars, Star Destroyers, clone armies, expansion of dominion across the galaxy, etc...) was the true and proper way to bring balance to the Force. If anything, bringing Anakin on board as the Chosen One only further enhanced his venture and ultimate drive for power.

    In any event, once Luke Skywalker had revealed his potential by destroying the Death Star, the ball was already in motion. The remaining Jedi could no longer place the fate of the galaxy in some mysterious prophecy, but instead, they were forced to make the most out of their predicament using a proactive means of reformation in the only way that they knew how: train Luke Skywalker to face Darth Vader and his Emperor.

    In the end, if the prophecy was to be believed given the audience's understanding of how the entire saga had played out, it was the Force's will that the only way to restore balance to the Force was by essentially pressing the reset button on the hard drive and performing a complete reboot. The galaxy engulfed itself in a chaotic conflict that persisted for decades until the people came to the realization that order and virtue comes not with fear and control of the masses, but with goodness and freedom of will and the ultimate destruction of its sinister mastermind.



     
  21. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Essentially what needs to be understood is that Luke is the ideal hero to which the human condition is drawn. Under duress and naivete, he is able to conquer not only his fears, but ultimate evil as well, while resisting the greatest of temptations in favor of the belief that forgiveness leads to a path of peace, harmony, and greatness.

    Anakin is not the quintessential heroic figure. Yet, he is a hero, nonetheless. Still, it is his ability to overcome the slavery of power and greed to redeem his fall from grace that brings about the salvation of the galaxy and the satisfaction and love of his family.

    The prophecy of the "one who will bring balance to the Force" is not meant to be awarded to the person who is most deserving of the honor. The will of the Force does not care who it should consider to be the best role model for the galaxy. No. It is simply an oracle promising that balance to the Force will be restored, and in the process, one individual would be chosen and would be conceived supernaturally in order for that goal to be attained.
     
  22. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "Wow. I am thoroughly impressed with MeBeJedi's assertions."

    Shucks. [face_blush] :)

    "Nobody?.and I mean absolutely nobody ?..knew whether the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force was in motion - unless?.that is?.you were to ask Qui Gon. All the players could do was act appropriately to preserve the perceptions of their own destinies."

    I would agree with that to a large extent. I think Yoda and Obi-wan were grasping at straws, but they certainly had a great deal of faith in the Force itself, if not the Prophecy, as seen in their own sacrifices for a greater good. If they were wrong, no biggie, but if they were right...

    "The prophecy of the "one who will bring balance to the Force" is not meant to be awarded to the person who is most deserving of the honor. The will of the Force does not care who it should consider to be the best role model for the galaxy. No. It is simply an oracle promising that balance to the Force will be restored, and in the process, one individual would be chosen and would be conceived supernaturally in order for that goal to be attained."

    Very well put. I agree completely.
     
  23. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Darth Stryphe,

    >>>>So when Anakin is taken over by the dark side, the balance is destroyed. Whether you buy into common-modern day philosphy of "victimhood" and say "oh, poor Anakin, he didn't mean to, he was forced him too!" or you can take the approach "he made decisions, he became Vader by choice", either way you're still left with the same conclusion from GL's quote - when Anakin became Vader the balance was destroyed.

    You're making a logical leap that I don't think is backed up by the quote. There's nothing in Lucas' quote that indicates that Anakin being taken over by the "dark forces" caused the same dark forces to destroy the balance. You could just as well substitute Anakin's name in that sentence for Darth Maul's, Dooku's or Palpatine (or go back to Darth Bane or whoever the EU talks about) and it would apparently hold equally true.

    The connection that Lucas seems to me to be making is simply that the dark forces that took over [insert Sith name here] are the same forces that go on to destroy the balance- not that there is a direct causal relationship between Anakin turning and balance being destroyed. (Although that said, it's my guess that Anakin's turn at Episode III will come at a pivotal point, where he will have a chance to fulfil the prophecy etc., but that Anakin's turn will be preventing the Jedi from stopping the Dark Side taking over, rather than causing the Dark Side to take over, if you see what I mean. But it's obviously all speculation at this point...)

    >>>Except that the Jedi now believes (in the OT) the Chosen One is Luke (in a sense, maybe not the one the prophecy spoke of, but the closest thing - possibly even the Chosen One). We are shown in the movie that they are right about Luke, as in, he is there last hope and that he fulfills his destiny, the destiny the Jedi foresaw, but if they were wrong about him being the Chosen One, in spite of this, this needs to be shown.

    Well, although we don't know for sure what Obi Wan and Yoda thought about the prophecy in the OT (in fact, its still debated 20 years on as to whether they wanted Luke to kill Vader), Lucas has said that the prequels will make it clear that Obi Wan is waiting for Luke up until ANH. Why would he be waiting for Luke, if not because he is a way to get to Anakin? Why not train someone who doesn't have an overprotective uncle from an earlier age?

    Obi Wan and Yoda believe that Luke is their last hope. That could mean their last hope to bring back Anakin, or the last hope to stop the Sith or the last hope for the survival of the Jedi's teachings. Nothing suggests that they think that Luke is the "Chosen One" of the prophecy- indeed, the fact that they think "there is another" seems to contradict the idea that they see him as the "Chosen One"!

    >>>I'm arguing that it doesn't add up with what Yoda says unless you start assuming things that Yoda never ever says and aren't necessarly shown in the film. (Boy, are we getting off-topic or what?)

    Yes, but you're not talking about a line of dialogue in the film here- you're talking about a snippet of Lucas' commentary- something not in the film. I just don't think it's fair to complain that a single snippet of the commentary taken in isolation doesn't tie in with another comment in the films- particularly as it seems to be referring to a different aspect of the same thing (the power the Dark Side makes accessible to an individual, rather than the power of the Dark Side of the Force itself.)

    >>>I could argue this point, but it's starting to veer a bit too far off topic. We'll clash posts on this in another thread.

    Is it? I'd say that Luke's goal of bringing the good man (Anakin Skywalker) back is pivotal to the topic- given that it's the clearly his achievement of this goal that leads to Anakin fulfilling his role as the Chosen One- whether or not Luke knew of the prophecy, this is what he did.
     
  24. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Why do I get the feeling I?ve stepped into quicksand with this thread?!

    (("Well I'm not sure what Lucas's current point of view is on this is"

    Well, at some point, you might want to go back to July 9th. Here's a quick summary of key quotes...
    ))

    Well I have, but my problem is, that after reading various quotes from Lucas (yep, I?ve read through this thread) I?m not sure he knows what he means by ?balancing the Force?.
    For instance:

    ?? where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. ?

    ?getting rid of evil in the universe? ? that hardly sounds like balance. Particularly when he?s already said this:
    "The overriding philosophy in Episode 1 - and in all the SW movies for that matter - is the balance between good and evil"

    I mean - huh?

    I should point out ? I?m not saying that Anakin isn?t the Chosen One.
    I?m questioning what this whole ?Balance of the Force? deal is, what it means and if it fits. Lucas has also talked about the 2 sides of the Force ? the Unifying and the Living, and it would seem reasonable to me that that is what needs balancing, especially since he was obviously on a whole ?symbiotic? kick in TPM. Unfortunately Lucas does have a tendency to start ideas but not continue them.

    But even if he does get it to fit it?s still just a prophecy, and as such it?s open to interpretation.
    I still think the most important thing is this:

    ?Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act - when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" - that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart. ?

    The destruction of the Sith is important, but I believe that the redemption of Anakin is the symbol for the peace and harmony to follow. And it?s Luke?s selfless act which directly brings this about. Luke?s action is in no way manipulative and I think that is what turns Anakin back.

    The prophecy is just the artist?s poetic bow to wrap around the story.




     
  25. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    gezvader28,

    Why do I get the feeling I?ve stepped into quicksand with this thread?!

    Me, too!


    (("Well I'm not sure what Lucas's current point of view is on this is"

    Well, at some point, you might want to go back to July 9th. Here's a quick summary of key quotes...))

    Well I have, but my problem is, that after reading various quotes from Lucas (yep, I?ve read through this thread) I?m not sure he knows what he means by ?balancing the Force?.
    For instance:

    ?? where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. ?

    ?getting rid of evil in the universe? ? that hardly sounds like balance. Particularly when he?s already said this:
    "The overriding philosophy in Episode 1 - and in all the SW movies for that matter - is the balance between good and evil"

    I mean - huh?

    I should point out ? I?m not saying that Anakin isn?t the Chosen One.
    I?m questioning what this whole ?Balance of the Force? deal is, what it means and if it fits. Lucas has also talked about the 2 sides of the Force ? the Unifying and the Living, and it would seem reasonable to me that that is what needs balancing, especially since he was obviously on a whole ?symbiotic? kick in TPM. Unfortunately Lucas does have a tendency to start ideas but not continue them.


    This is my problem with using quotes from Lucas to back up my posts and why I don't do it.

    He really doesn't seem to know where he is going with this prophecy and balance stuff and that is what I meant about poor writing. If the author isn't sure what's going on, how can he explain it to the audience? This is also why he needs to explain his ideas in interviews.

    By better writing, I did not mean spell everything out, but at least make some things clear enough so there isn't all this debate and wild speculation, like Sidious and the clone theory, which I don't subscribe to and never have. (Of course, debate is fun).

    I have to agree with the rest of gezvader's post.

    I still think Luke is the chosen one because he redeems Anakin and allows Anakin to realize he can be redeemed. Savior=redeemer=chosen one. IMHO, of course. :)

    Lady Sami

     
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