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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by MasterP, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "that is what I meant about poor writing. If the author isn't sure what's going on, how can he explain it to the audience?"

    Conversely, if the concept isn't explained well to the audience, then how can they get it right, either? ?[face_plain]

    As you said before, "all conclusions that are based on insufficient data are wrong, including mine. It is a logical fallacy."























    *snort*

    *laugh* [face_laugh]

    Okay, I couldn't keep a straight face on that one. :p

    I'm just picking on you. Sorry... [face_blush]

    I will say that, even though Lucas makes some mistakes, the intent of his words is quite clear. These mistakes are being used as "convenient" logic for those who disagree with Lucas' ideas, but it is not "proof". Keep in mind that these quotes are taken over several years' time. I doubt that, under similar circumstances, any of us could be as "consistent" as we'd like Lucas to be. ;)
     
  2. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Aye carumba. You're telling me that you have never said anything "off the cuff" without leaving some hole that might need a second or perhaps a third sentence to properly close on your point.

    He happens to be answering point blank questions in an interview dealing with very broad subject matter.

    Lucas is not writing a doctoral thesis to earn a degree for heaven's sake - just so that his audience can nitpick his saga to death all over the internet. Let's avoid the crucifying for at least this once, please......

    It is complaints and diatribes like this that give sci-fi fans a bad name.....

    Balance to the Force implies a healthy state (ie. a balanced diet, a balanced exercise regimen - cardio, legs, arms, abs, etc...). The Dark Side is the cancer that takes the balance out of the Force - just like an indulgence in snacks or lounging on the couch all day leads to physical - and even psychological - unfitness.

    In no way have Lucas or Kurtz or Kershner or Kazanjian or Marquand ever implied in the saga that evil is a cherished characteristic that provides a proper sense of morality and direction requiring oneself to give in to fear and hate. That's just absurd. No. It's our ability to temper our fears and our shadows that lead to goodness and virtue (ie. a proper balance of emotion and the avoidance of caving in to the temptations of evil).
     
  3. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    LucasCop-
    It is complaints and diatribes like this that give sci-fi fans a bad name.....

    Er.....what or whose post are you referring to there?

    g
     
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    LucasCop,

    In no way have Lucas or Kurtz or Kershner or Kazanjian or Marquand ever implied in the saga that evil is a cherished characteristic that provides a proper sense of morality and direction requiring oneself to give in to fear and hate. That's just absurd. No. It's our ability to temper our fears and our shadows that lead to goodness and virtue (ie. a proper balance of emotion and the avoidance of caving in to the temptations of evil).

    Oh, but I think he (Lucas) IS saying that evil is okay with this 'do one good deed and you're forgiven for a lifetime of evil' with Anakin's redemption. And that is a very bad thing to be telling kids, as, after all, he keeps saying his movies are for!

    Lady Sami
     
  5. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    *flashes badge*

    Enforcer of Sanity

    *grin*

    :p
     
  6. YodaJeff

    YodaJeff Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2001
    "Oh, but I think he (Lucas) IS saying that evil is okay with this 'do one good deed and you're forgiven for a lifetime of evil' with Anakin's redemption. And that is a very bad thing to be telling kids, as, after all, he keeps saying his movies are for!"

    Not to turn this into a religious debate, but is that much (if any) different than certian religions stating that if you're sorry for your sins, you will be forgiven?
     
  7. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Believe it or not....but that happens to be a significant theme in Christianity too.

    The adulterer and prostitute, Veronica(?), washed the feet of Jesus with her tears as he was preaching the parables. The scribes and priests tried to cast her out of their meeting place complaining her behavior and way of life had no business anywhere near the proclaimed Messiah. Jesus accepted her considerate act with open arms, thanked her, forgave her of her sins, and told her to go and sin no more.

    Moral of the story: even the worst of us sinners can be redeemed if our heart is true with sorrow.

    Forget Lucas!!!!!! Apparently parents should outlaw religion from the kiddies too!
     
  8. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    And I don't care that you happen to be an agnostic who had a falling out with Roman Catholicism because your mother never felt it was an essential part of life.

    There are some who still hold to ideals like these. And if you don't....then perhaps it's not Lucas' fault...but rather indication to you that Star Wars is not the appropriate venue of entertainment for you and your children anymore......
     
  9. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    This will all depend on how GL shows Anakin becoming DV. If, as we have been told by Ben in ESB and Yoda, it is a conscious choice, then that will be one thing. If, however, we are made to feel sorry for Anakin, then that will be an entirely different story altogether.

    If it's a conscious choice, then we should see a little more 'remorse,' on Anakin's part than we see in ROTJ.

    If it's just your standard, 'pity the poor blameless victim' scenario, then I stand by my post.

    LucasCop,

    Mary Magdalene and she was an adulteress, not a prostitute, according to the King James version.

    And what was that last part about?

    Lady Sami
     
  10. DarthTerrious

    DarthTerrious Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    If it's a conscious choice, then we should see a little more 'remorse,' on Anakin's part than we see in ROTJ.

    Isn't it enough that he shows remorse? What does the amount of remorse have to do with anything?

    The fact he feels remorse is good enough for me.


    Oh, but I think he (Lucas) IS saying that evil is okay with this 'do one good deed and you're forgiven for a lifetime of evil' with Anakin's redemption. And that is a very bad thing to be telling kids, as, after all, he keeps saying his movies are for!

    Oh yeah well its strange I don't get that at all.
    He is saying that despite how many bad acts we do and how evil we can become, there is the capacity to become a good person and redeem ourselves.
    We all make bad decisions in our lives, some of us do it consistently like Anakin does, and yet we can wipe the slate clean if we realise those errors and make a good decision and do a good and selfless act.
    Thats what Star Wars is about, apart from the daily struggle of good vs evil.
    So no Lucas isn't sending out the wrong message.
     
  11. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    You make appropriate "if" conditionals. "If" Lucas blatantly handles the transition in that fashion, you have an acceptable point - from a certain point of view.

    Unfortunately, I fear that anything Lucas does nowadays will be unfairly misconstrued as further childhood rape. (It really hurts my ears.) I can already see and hear the bashers around the internet in a three-point stance at the scrimmage line waiting for the motion of the snap to unleash once again.....

    *****

    YES......Mary Magdelene. (Thank you.) She became a close friend of the family afterwards. Veronica wiped the face of Jesus during his passion to Golgotha. (And only for your information, the common understanding is that adultery is code word for prostitution back in the day....)
     
  12. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    LucasCop,

    Thanks for the tip on translations.

    I think one way Lucas could make this redemption thing clearer would be if he makes it clear that if you die before you repent, you're in hot water.

    Lady Sami
     
  13. FuzzyRatt

    FuzzyRatt Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 16, 2003
    The one real problem with the whole chosen one idea, is that we are not given very much info in the two films that cover it.

    We get what two of three very short scenes in TPM and only four or five lines in AOTC.

    We are never (unless AVBE changes it) shown what the prophecy even said.

    The only true info is in interviews with GL. For it to mean anything it must be shown better in the films. He only has one shot left.

    I hope he makes it count.
     
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "Balance to the Force implies a healthy state (ie. a balanced diet, a balanced exercise regimen - cardio, legs, arms, abs, etc...). The Dark Side is the cancer that takes the balance out of the Force - just like an indulgence in snacks or lounging on the couch all day leads to physical - and even psychological - unfitness."

    I have to say, this is the best explanation for "balance of the Force" that I have ever heard. Eliminating the Sith doesn't eliminate all evil, simply the worst evil in existence. Now, the Force will not be "raped" (like my childhood) by the Sith.

    Consider this analogy. A balanced diet can consist of moderate amounts of sugar, but too much sugar can increase the danger of cavities. What about a marshmellow, or a bag of marshmellows...?

    Now, imagine that the Stay-puft marshmellow man comes along, and the Jedi are the Ghostbusters. One marshmellow is fine, but the Stay-puft marshmellow man has the ability to destroy the teeth of young children around the world! Everyone's mouth is in danger. Once the Stay-puft marshmellow man is roasted, we can go back to moderate amounts of sugar.

    Then again, I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed writing it. Now I really have an "appetite" for watching this film all over again. :D

    "but I think he (Lucas) IS saying that evil is okay with this 'do one good deed and you're forgiven for a lifetime of evil' with Anakin's redemption."

    But Anakin was only forgiven by Luke. You make it sound like he got a tucker-tape parade. He did die, in case you forgot.

    Besides, this is your interpretation, not Lucas'.

    "is that much (if any) different than certian religions stating that if you're sorry for your sins, you will be forgiven?"

    Not in the slightest. I brought up the "Born-again Christians" reasoning a long time ago.

    "one way Lucas could make this redemption thing clearer would be if he makes it clear that if you die before you repent, you're in hot water."

    Notice what Vader must endure to survive until the time of his redemption: being a slave throughout his life, loss of wife/family and friends, loss of vital body parts and functions, trapped in a life-saving suit, almost losing his children.

    Vader was trapped in a living hell of his own making, much like alcoholics and drug-addicts. Can these people not redeem themselves as well, or should they not even be given the chance? ?[face_plain]

    "we are not given very much info in the two films that cover it."

    Not direct information, but there are plenty of clues. As I said, the films do work without the Prophecy, but they do not negate the Prophecy.

    "We are never (unless AVBE changes it) shown what the prophecy even said."

    That's not true. ?[face_plain]
     
  15. FuzzyRatt

    FuzzyRatt Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 16, 2003
    MeBeJedi:
    "We are never (unless AVBE changes it) shown what the prophecy even said."

    That's not true."

    Do you a differant copy of TPM than I do? :confused:

    All the lines that talk about the Prophecy have already been posted in this thread. I will not waste your's or my time reposting them. I did not get a clear view of the Prophecy from these lines.
    Could you post to whole Prophecy for my?
    I sure did miss it, myself. :confused:

    Thanks. :D
     
  16. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    We are not told what the prophecy is- that is, the exact wording of it, but we are told what it says. I think it's fair to guess that we've been told the important bits of it (so far), and I don't understand what is so unclear about it.

    The prophecy says that there is a Chosen One, conceived by midichlorians*, who will restore balance to the Force**, and that the Chosen One is the only one who can do this.***

    *= Evidence: TPM
    Qui Gon: "It is possible he was conceived by the midichlorians."
    Mace: "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force?"

    **= Evidence: TPM
    Qui Gon: "He is the Chosen One. He will bring balance."
    Mace: "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force."
    (Plus other references that I can't be bothered to quote...)

    ***= Evidence: AOTC
    Mace: "If the prophecy is correct, then your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance."


    If you're talking about what the prophecy actually means, then you're talking about something completely different. Prophecies are by their very nature vague, and left to interpretation (bit like horoscopes...) It seems clear, given the events of the OT, that Anakin brings balance by wiping out the Sith. It is also clear from TPM that the Jedi don't all interpret the prophecy in the same way (for example, their thoughts on whether Anakin should be trained)- so giving the exact wording of the prophecy to the audience and letting them come up with their own interpretations when the whole point of it in the films is that it's supposed to be unclear to the characters who are making decisions based on it would simply be a bad idea, IMHO. It's supposed to be mysterious- it would be like showing what's in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, or starting an Agatha Christie film with a scene showing the murder happen (with close ups on the murderers face), or revealing who Kaiser Soze is at the start of The Usual Suspects.


    Lady Sami,

    >>>I still think Luke is the chosen one because he redeems Anakin and allows Anakin to realize he can be redeemed. Savior=redeemer=chosen one. IMHO, of course.

    This what I just don't understand. Luke is clearly the savious, redeemer, hero, etc. etc.

    What makes you think that being the "chosen one" has anything to do with any of those qualities? Where is the connection between the two concepts? What inspires you to make the logical leap from "saviour=redeemer" to "chosen one"?

    >>>Oh, but I think he (Lucas) IS saying that evil is okay with this 'do one good deed and you're forgiven for a lifetime of evil' with Anakin's redemption. And that is a very bad thing to be telling kids, as, after all, he keeps saying his movies are for!

    Did you miss the whole "Dark Side" thing? The "once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny- consume you it will" idea?
     
  17. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Scott
    The prophecy says that there is a Chosen One, conceived by midichlorians*, who will restore balance to the Force**, and that the Chosen One is the only one who can do this.***
    ***= Evidence: AOTC
    Mace: "If the prophecy is correct, then your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance."


    So destroying the Sith = balancing the Force .
    But why is Anakin the only person who can do this? Are we to believe that no-one else could kill Sidious? If Sidious were still alive when Lando fired his torpedoes at the reactor and blew up the DS would Sid have miraculously survived?

    g
     
  18. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Do you mean like Luke did?
     
  19. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    If Vader had not thrown him into the chasm, Luke would have died.

    Vader - although injured - would have led Palpatine through the standard evacuation protocols. The Sith would have survived. The Empire would have been sustained.

    The prophecy would have been yet unfulfilled while Vader still remains the only individual with the proximity and strength of the Force to remove Palpatine from power.

    Arguably, the Sith Order would likely have endured indefinitely at that point and the prophecy would never have been fulfilled. For that reason, it is evident that without the aid of his son, the Chosen One would never have ensured the restoration of balance to the Force.

    Unless....you consider the fact that "there is another".

    Remember...not everything needs to be spelled out by Lucas in order for it to work. No author or creator of any artistic work is demanded as much. The rest of the "work" is placed upon the audience. The attraction to fiction and myths, and stories in general, is the opportunity of the audience to explore the meanings and morals themselves, without the intrusion of being spoon fed "the answers".
     
  20. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    >>> So destroying the Sith = balancing the Force .
    But why is Anakin the only person who can do this? Are we to believe that no-one else could kill Sidious?


    If the prophecy is correct, then yes.

    And as it turned out, apparently it was. (I don't know- maybe it was just a fluke, but in my experience there's no such thing as luck...)
     
  21. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Double post
     
  22. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Are we to believe that no-one else could kill Sidious?

    With that being said, yes.....it indeed seems as though that is what Lucas is trying to say.
     
  23. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "But why is Anakin the only person who can do this? Are we to believe that no-one else could kill Sidious?"

    This is a fantasy film. It's not that no one else is capable of killing him, simply that Anakin was created and destined to kill him. The fact that it was "forseen" means that it will happen. However, no one knows exactly who will do it, or how. In line with my earlier "ambiguity" quote, if the audience knows beforehand exactly who will do it and how, then the movie loses its surprise and suspense. How boring would "The Matrix" be if, in the beginning, we knew without a doubt that Neo was the One, and he would succeed. His "death" scene is supposed to shock us because it goes against what we've been led to believe up to that point - that he is the One. Turns out, the death scene was necessary for his transformation.

    The Oracle - "Seems like you're waiting for something"
    Neo - "Waiting for what?"
    The Oracle - "Your SECOND LIFE, who knows?"

    What seemed like an offhand remark turned out to be the key, but it only made sense after the fact. Like Morpheus said, there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. Had Neo known that he had to "die" first, he would have either 1) been to afraid to try, fearing for his life, or 2) stood in front of a gun, sacrificing himself before he was ready to transform.

    Nonetheless, the events that took place had to take place in the order that they did, because the cause-and-effect of these actions led to the "vision" that the Oracle saw.

    "If Vader had not thrown him into the chasm, Luke would have died."

    Agreed. Luke was not powerful enough to take on Sidious. Only Vader had a chance, and then only by surprise. Otherwise, Palps would have "forseen" it and countered it.

    "the Chosen One would never have ensured the restoration of balance to the Force.

    Unless....you consider the fact that "there is another"."


    Ironically, the annotated screenplays state that this line was thrown in simply to make the audience believe that Luke might fail. It was intended to cause the "doubt" that raises the stakes, and therefore the suspense, of Luke's decision. We are led to believe that he could fail. Otherwise, if we "know" that Luke will succeed, there's no real emotional pay-off, as there's no real suspense.
     
  24. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    G*d d*mn. MeBeJedi knows how to pull out all the stops.
     
  25. LucasCop

    LucasCop Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Ironically, the annotated screenplays state that this line was thrown in simply to make the audience believe that Luke might fail.

    I agree. The prophecy was in motion and on the one and only path leading to the throne room on Death Star II.
     
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