Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

Scott-
Do you mean like Luke did?

No. What I meant was : can Sidious die by other means? Other than at the hand of the chosen one. Is he invulnerable? If the DS blew up with him on it, still alive, wouldn't he die?

LucasCop
Aye carumba. You're telling me that you have never said anything "off the cuff" without leaving some hole that might need a second or perhaps a third sentence to properly close on your point.

He happens to be answering point blank questions in an interview dealing with very broad subject matter.

Yes, so then his words are open to some interpretation.

Remember...not everything needs to be spelled out by Lucas in order for it to work. No author or creator of any artistic work is demanded as much. The rest of the "work" is placed upon the audience. The attraction to fiction and myths, and stories in general, is the opportunity of the audience to explore the meanings and morals themselves, without the intrusion of being spoon fed "the answers".

And that's what I'm doing - exploring the meanings and morals.

MBJ
This is a fantasy film. It's not that no one else is capable of killing him, simply that Anakin was created and destined to kill him. The fact that it was "forseen" means that it will happen. However, no one knows exactly who will do it, or how.

Agreed, I think Sidious can be killed by another or something else.

Okay, here's my point :

If balancing the Force is something only Anakin can do then it could be something other than destroying the Sith, if we accept that something/someone else could destroy the Sith.
I mean if someone else can potentially do it then it's not only possible for the Chosen One.

Here's what I think - the only thing that the Chosen One can change, that no-one else can change, is himself. That's why I think it's Anakin's choice to turn away from the Darkside/destiny/whatever that is actually the thing which balances the Force. This decision destroys one Sith, Vader, and that leads to the destruction of the other Sith.

I just think it fits more with the notion that peace/ harmony comes from within. Luke does it, then Anakin.
The end result is the same - dead Sith, but to me it makes more spritual sense. And I think it's a valid way of looking at it based on the info we have.

And then you throw the bad guy down the well!!

well that's how I see it. (at the moment.)

g

 

MeBe and Scot3eyz & LucasCop,

I think this post sums up what I've been saying about bad writing (emphasis mine):

Ironically, the annotated screenplays state that this line was thrown in simply to make the audience believe that Luke might fail.

Thanks for proving MY point!

And, again, I agree with gezvader28, we are exploring the unwritten stuff here, the ambiguities, etc.

No, I don't want to be 'spoon-fed' stuff or have everything spelled out. But I would like a better idea of what the prophecy really says.

Lady Sami

 

"If balancing the Force is something only Anakin can do then it could be something other than destroying the Sith"

...and if you were writing the story, I'd agree. Remember that the Prophecy is, at best, a "glimpse" into the future. Watch "Minority Report" again, and tell me how much you can infer from those few seconds of time in the "vision".

Consider the "guy in the glasses" who turns out to be a billboard. By your reasoning, it should really have been a person, because that's what Cruise inferred from that "glimpse". Nonetheless, the billboard was simply that: a billboard. Your inference of what balance should have been would also be incorrect because you did not have full knowledge of the circumstances of the glimpse, as is the case with Yoda and Mace, as well.

Another example - my "burning house" scenario. If you only saw the man run into the house to save the child, then you would consider him a hero. However, if you saw the man set the fire, and then run into the house to save the child, you'd see that he created the situation to start with.

Nonetheless, in both situations, the man set the fire, ran into the house, and saved the child. The sequence of events did not change, only your viewpoint of those events changed. He is a hero or a villain, depending not on what actually happened, but on how much you know about what actually happened.

Again, with the Prophecy. The Jedi who had the "vision" inferred that the person in the vision "would bring balance". The who/what/where/when/why/how of how this balance is brought about is not seen! Therefore, to say it has to be something else makes no sense. It simply is what it is. What actually happened has not changed - only your viewpoint of the circumstances has changed.

Had the Prophect "seen" that Vader would destroy the Jedi Order before bringing balance, then surely he would have said this as well. Had he known that Luke confronting the Emperor would bring balance, he would have said so. This information is obviously not given, because 1) Anakin does help eliminate the Jedi Order, and 2) Luke is told he must confront Vader. The fact that details aren't given doesn't mean we can go back and say "well, this is what it should have meant", because this reasoning doesn't change what was seen in the vision. The vision simply "is", and the gaps were filled in as the Prophecy was fulfilled. You may not like what ultimately filled in those gaps, but it's there, nonetheless.

"I think this post sums up what I've been saying about bad writing (emphasis mine):"

Ironically, the annotated screenplays state that this line was thrown in simply to make the audience believe that Luke might fail.

"Thanks for proving MY point!"

How is this bad writing? It created exactly the effect it was intended to. ?

Now that I'm home, let me give you the full details...

In the second draft as in the movie, Luke has the vision of his friends in danger and decides to save them; Ben and Yoda warn him against Vader and the dark side. Luke says he'll come back and takes off. In this draft there's no hint that there may be another hope if Luke fails. In the revised second draft a fe lines of dialogue were added as Luke's X-wing disappears in the sky: Yoda says "Now we must find another." Ben replies: "He is our only hope." And in the third draft, after Luke takes off, Ben says: "The boy is our last hope." Yoda replies: "No...We must search for another."

George: My feeling about Luke being the last hope was really done in an effort to make sure that he was in some jeopardy, that he might not succeed. I was trying to set up subliminally in the audience's mind that something is going on here, that he could fail. And if he does fail, 'there is another hope.' So the audience is saying, 'Don't go, finish your training.'"

So there you have it - the intent of the line. As you can see, a lot of work went into it. My earlier simplification of the pr

 

Again, with the Prophecy. The Jedi who had the "vision" inferred that the person in the vision "would bring balance". The who/what/where/when/why/how of how this balance is brought about is not seen! Therefore, to say it has to be something else makes no sense. It simply is what it is. What actually happened has not changed - only your viewpoint of the circumstances has changed

What do you mean by "It simply is what it is." ?
Do you mean that all we know is that 'The Chosen one will bring balance to the Force' and everything else is interpretation?
Well that's all I'm doing - interpreting it.

As for the 'other hope' line in TESB - that originally referred to Luke's sister who was on the other side of the galaxy. Gary Kurtz revealed that, but then when Lucas decided to summarise Eps. 7, 8 and 9 this sister became Leia.

g

 

"Do you mean that all we know is that 'The Chosen one will bring balance to the Force' and everything else is interpretation?"

Only up until the point when the Prophecy is actually fulfilled. Remember that Cruise could not believe why his future self would be killing someone because 1) it wasn't in his nature, 2) he did't even know the guy, and 3) comitting murder was stupid, because everyone got caught. Everything Cruise did, in his mind, was an attempt to prevent the future from happening.

It wasn't until Cruise actually reached the time of fulfillment that he (and the audience) understood the full circumstances of the "glipmse", and everything is made clear. The whole tone of the movie changes after this.

Same with ROTJ. Just when all hope seems lost - the Rebel fleet can't get to the DS, Han's group is captured, Luke is about to be killed and Vader appears to have given up entirely - suddenly something changes...

This is when Vader:
1) kills Palpatine, eliminating the Sith, thus preserving the Force.
2) kills Palpatine, and his control of the Dark Side and the Empire, thus allowing the Rebel fleet to attack the DS.
3) kills Palpatine, which saves Luke.
4) kills Palpatine, due in part to the fact that he has finally given up on his evil alter ego, Darth Vader, and has returned as Anakin, thus bringing balance to himself.

After this, the whole tone of the film changes: Anakin is redeemed, Luke's belief is proven, the Rebel fleet can destroy the Death Star, Leia is safe, and the Sith Order is extinct. Despite all this, people still don't accept this as the crux of the film, the nexus at which all fates are decided. Rather than see all the consequences and symbolism of this one act, people are too focused on the build-up to the scene itself, is for no other reason than a need to focus on the "hero" of the OT as the "Chosen One", a requirement that exists only in their own interpretation, since it is never mentioned in the film. Despite his past actions, Anakin becomes a savior in many different ways (more so than Luke), even though it was never his intention to begin with. his circumstances made him a savior in that point in time.

 

Lady Sami

>>>I think this post sums up what I've been saying about bad writing (emphasis mine):

Ironically, the annotated screenplays state that this line was thrown in simply to make the audience believe that Luke might fail.

Thanks for proving MY point!

I don't really get what this "point" has to do with the topic- it just seems to be a cheap swipe at Empire Strikes Back (which incidentally, I have always said is the root of all the problems in the Star Wars saga...)

>>>And, again, I agree with gezvader28, we are exploring the unwritten stuff here, the ambiguities, etc.

No, I don't want to be 'spoon-fed' stuff or have everything spelled out. But I would like a better idea of what the prophecy really says.

Again, what is it that is so unclear about it?

Or is it just that you're so intrigued by the references to this mystical prophecy that you're dying to hear more about it?

gezvader

>>>What I meant was : can Sidious die by other means? Other than at the hand of the chosen one. Is he invulnerable? If the DS blew up with him on it, still alive, wouldn't he die?

Well, if Palpatine died there would still be Vader, who would presumably take on the Emperor's role, train an apprentice etc. etc.

But like MeBeJedi said, this is a prophecy in a fantasy film- it's a glimpse of the future, as opposed to a law of nature that the Sith can only be killed by the Chosen Ones kryptonite midichlorians or something. I think that AOTC makes it clear that the Chosen One doesn't have to fulfil the prophecy.

>>>>Here's what I think - the only thing that the Chosen One can change, that no-one else can change, is himself. That's why I think it's Anakin's choice to turn away from the Darkside/destiny/whatever that is actually the thing which balances the Force. This decision destroys one Sith, Vader, and that leads to the destruction of the other Sith.

I just think it fits more with the notion that peace/ harmony comes from within. Luke does it, then Anakin.
The end result is the same - dead Sith, but to me it makes more spritual sense. And I think it's a valid way of looking at it based on the info we have.

To be honest, I think that Episode III is going to cover this end of things. I think it's clear that when he turns away from the Dark Side, all the pieces fall into place (as you described) and Anakin fulfils the prophecy. But I find it hard to believe that turning to the Dark Side in the first place was something he *had* to do- I expect an opportunity to be there in Episode III for him to fulfil the prophecy, which he will choose not to do in favour of something selfish- either saving his own life, saving Padme or something along those lines.

 

MeBe & Scoteyz3,

How does that little comment prove bad writing? Because that one little scene, regardless of how much thought went into it at the time, drastically changed the story, and caused repercussions that weren't foreseen, just like suddenly changing Leia into Luke's long-lost sister (another spur of the moment decision) drastically changed the love story aspects. I don't think Lucas really thought about the changes that would happen by those two 'small' changes to the story.

Scoteyz3,

I, too, do not believe that turning to the dark side was Anakin's destiny. I think that whatever choice he makes in Ep. III will show why he is a bad choice to be 'the chosen one.'

And, yes, the prophecy intrigues me so much I would like to know more about it. I have read other book series based on a prophecy and bits and pieces of the prophecy were scattered throughout the stories, never enough to be really sure about what was going on, but enough to keep it interesting.

And it was only the way the movie was cut that makes you think that the Death Star couldn't be blown up. Han actually got the shield down during the lightsaber battle between Luke and Vader and the Falcon was on its way already. So, even if Luke had died, the Emperor and Vader would still have been destroyed.

Lady Sami

 

>>>>Because that one little scene, regardless of how much thought went into it at the time, drastically changed the story, and caused repercussions that weren't foreseen, just like suddenly changing Leia into Luke's long-lost sister (another spur of the moment decision) drastically changed the love story aspects. I don't think Lucas really thought about the changes that would happen by those two 'small' changes to the story.

It's actually one "small" change- that one little scene ("there is another") was WHY Leia got turned into Luke's sister- apparently the "other" was originally planned to be involved in a storyline for the prequel trilogy which would have tied in with the sequel trilogy. But when he decided to tie it all up with ROTJ, the "other" had to be changed into an already existing character.

Which is one reason I keep saying that ESB is the root of all that is wrong with the saga...

As for the death star- what would have stopped Vader and the Emperor from escaping in the same way that Luke escaped?

 

Scot3eyz,

The rebel fleet.

Lady Sami

 

What about the remaining imperial fleet?

(And the fact that Luke escaped in an imperial shuttle would imply that the Rebels weren't too fussy about shooting down escaping ships!)

 

"Do you mean that all we know is that 'The Chosen one will bring balance to the Force' and everything else is interpretation?"

MBJ -Only up until the point when the Prophecy is actually fulfilled.

Ah ? but when is the prophecy fulfilled? Isn?t it open to some interpretation, I think it?s more than just one event.

Same with ROTJ. Just when all hope seems lost - the Rebel fleet can't get to the DS, Han's group is captured, Luke is about to be killed and Vader appears to have given up entirely - suddenly something changes...

Well in the movie ? Luke throws down his saber and says ?You?ve failed your highness, I?m a Jedi like my father..? etc. And immediately after that we see Han blow up the shield generator and the rebels begin their attack on the DS. So?.isn?t Luke?s action of refusing to fight and declaring his father a Jedi the moment when ?something suddenly changes.? ?

Scott
Well, if Palpatine died there would still be Vader, who would presumably take on the Emperor's role, train an apprentice etc. etc.

But like MeBeJedi said, this is a prophecy in a fantasy film- it's a glimpse of the future, as opposed to a law of nature that the Sith can only be killed by the Chosen Ones kryptonite midichlorians or something. I think that AOTC makes it clear that the Chosen One doesn't have to fulfil the prophecy.

No, my point is that Sidious and Vader aren't invulnerable to everything but the chosen One. They could be killed by something other.

Now ? if you accept what Mace says ? that only the chosen one can bring balance to the force ? then it has to be something which only Anakin can do. But if you also accept that it?s possible that Sidious and Vader could be killed by something other than Anakin (ie: being on the DS when it blows up) then destroying the Sith can?t = balancing the Force.
I mean if someone else can kill them then it isn?t something which only the chosen one can do.
The only thing anakin can do, which no-one else can do, is change himself, turn back from the dark.

I should clarify : I?m not complaining about how unclear the prophecy is, I don?t mind, I?m saying that that?s why I think it?s open to interpretation , particulalry in regards what ?balanceing the Force? means.
And since it?s a prophecy we are free to be doubtful of it as well.

g

 

>>>>Now ? if you accept what Mace says ? that only the chosen one can bring balance to the force ? then it has to be something which only Anakin can do. But if you also accept that it?s possible that Sidious and Vader could be killed by something other than Anakin (ie: being on the DS when it blows up) then destroying the Sith can?t = balancing the Force.

You're missing out half of Mace's statement again.

"If the prophecy is correct, then your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance."

If Anakin IS the one the prophecy refers to (which I think it's clear he is), but the prophecy ISN'T correct then, say, R2D2 could suffocate Vader and the Emperor with his fire extinguisher and bring balance to the Force that way. (But it wouldn't make him the Chosen One of the Prophecy, because it doesn't fit in with the rest of what we know about it- it would make the prophecy incorrect... so I suppose you could say that the bit identifying the Chosen One was wrong, but that R2D2 was the chosen one... but that's a bit too much of a convoluted bit of reasoning for my brain to deal with on a friday afternoon...)

>>>The only thing anakin can do, which no-one else can do, is change himself, turn back from the dark.

And that's what I don't like about that interpretation- because it necessitates that Anakin turning to the Dark Side was a part of the prophecy (or of his intended destiny) in the first place.

 

Sure.....the audience can doubt till hell freezes over that Anakin ever fulfilled the prophecy.

But then you need to ask yourself.....What is my motive for resisting the design of the saga? What have I gained?

Gez: In your opinion, what is Lucas trying to say, then, if he leaves the story open to the audience's interpretation that Anakin is NOT the Chosen One? It's an interesting critique. I'm just curious because I don't see it your way.

 

gezvader8,

Good points about balancing the force, but again, I would argue that balancing the force within oneself is something that Luke does, and DOES better than Anakin. IMHO

And, yes, I think the prophecy is so vague that we can discuss it and what it means. Also, bringing balance is pretty much open to interpretation, too. If, as GL says, it's the balancing of the forces of good and evil within oneself, then that points to Luke, as he is much better at that balance than Anakin.

Just my opinion and .02.

Lady Sami

 

You're missing out half of Mace's statement again.

"If the prophecy is correct, then your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance."

But assuming the prophecy is correct - then killing the Sith does not = balancing the Force, because , potentially, someone else could kill them. If only the chosen one can balance the force then it has to be something only he can do.

>>>"The only thing anakin can do, which no-one else can do, is change himself, turn back from the dark."

And that's what I don't like about that interpretation- because it necessitates that Anakin turning to the Dark Side was a part of the prophecy (or of his intended destiny) in the first place.


Hmmm. interesting. So what's your interpretation of the prophecy?

Lucascop-
Gez: What could Lucas possibly be trying to say, then, if he leaves the story open to the audience's interpretation that Anakin is NOT the Chosen One? It's an interesting critique. I'm just curious because I don't see it your way.

Well it is just a prophecy in the story, if you believe it completely then aren't you saying that it was all pre-destined, that the characters had no free-will, that they were always going to end up at that place?

It's poetic and all that 'cos it encompasses the story, but I don't think we're meant to accept it without question. Destiny vs. choice, will of the Force vs. individual choice, etc. These things are always debated.

g

 

So Anakin did not restore balance to the Force because the prophecy was untrue?

Or Anakin did not restore balance to the Force because he possessed a free will?

Or Anakin simply did not restore balance to the Force?

I want YOUR opinion. Thanks.

 

gezvader8,

More good points. There's one statement on whether Anakin is the chosen one or not that hasn't been mentioned yet, unless it was pages back and I'm not in the mood to backtrack that far. I don't remember if Yoda or Mace said it, but it was, "If he follows the correct path." Well, we all know that Anakin does not follow the correct path.

Lady Sami

 

Lady Sami can answer this one too.

Anakin did not restore balance to the Force because....

 

LucasCop,

Please be patience. Invoking formulation of answer.

Lady Sami

 

LucasCop,
well I've been giving my opinions on this all through my posts. I'm sorry if it's inconclusive, but that's the way it goes. These matters by their very nature are paradoxical. Anyway I'll have a go at answering your points:

So Anakin did not restore balance to the Force because the prophecy was untrue?

I suppose he did, in a way. The prophecy came true, but that doesn't necessarilly mean the prophet could see the future.

Or Anakin did not restore balance to the Force because he possessed a free will?

I think he does have free will. In fact I think free will is the key, consider this quote from Lucas:
?Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act - when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" - that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father"

Now it seems to me that Lucas is saying that Luke uses his free will here, that leads to anakin waking up to the fact that he can use his free will too, his life isn't pre-ordained, and he makes his own choice for the first time in probably 20 years.
Now paradoxically it's these acts of free -will which lead directly to the prophecy being fulfilled.
If I'm right that's a nice bit of irony.
I could be wrong though.

Or Anakin simply did not restore balance to the Force?

I think he probably did, him and Luke.

But what's your opinion? If you think the prophecy is true do you think that the prophet saw the future ?

What's your answer to the above questions?

And if the future is set then what does that say about free will?

g

 

I am drawn to stories that lead the audience to main characters who are presented trials and conflicts that can only be surpassed through faith, hope, and love.

Following a story like the Star Wars saga or The Dark Crystal or The Lord of the Rings or Dune or Minority Report or even the passion of Christ in which the characters are immersed within a spiritual acquiescence only enhances the experience and reiterates our humanity and our longing to drive our destinies toward the highest virtues.

My belief that the prophecy of the Chosen One can come true makes my Star Wars experience that much more fulfilling.

 

And if the future is set then what does that say about free will?

The thing is...no one held a gun to Ani's head and told him to restore balance to the Force. No one forced the entire galaxy to reform themselves and drive out the evils of the Dark Side of the Force.

It simply happened. And lo and behold, an oracle foresaw this occurrence.

Amazing.

 

LucasCop,
Yes, I think a prophecy can add a sort of mythical weight to these kind of stories.

What do you think is the 'balance' referred to in the prophecy? Is it the death of the Sith? Anakin's redemption? Father finding his son again? ?

g

 

page 22
Balance to the Force implies a healthy state (ie. a balanced diet, a balanced exercise regimen - cardio, legs, arms, abs, etc...). The Dark Side is the cancer that takes the balance out of the Force - just like an indulgence in snacks or lounging on the couch all day leads to physical - and even psychological - unfitness.

Evil is not a cherished characteristic that provides a proper sense of morality and direction requiring oneself to give in to fear and hate. It's our ability to temper our fears and our shadows that lead to goodness and virtue (ie. a proper balance of emotion and the avoidance of caving in to the temptations of evil).

page 1
But what exactly is a "Chosen One"? Well....it's just that: an individual that seems to have been approved a priori by a higher order to make a critical difference to the status quo. Qui Gon relays to the audience his defiant steadfastness that Anakin is indeed that fateful individual.

Whether this choice made by the will of the Force was appropriate or not is entirely up to interpretation. Additionally, the actual concept of a Chosen One does not preclude the notion that the will of the Force may have had an expectation of such circumstances that would permit direct offspring or even direct associates of this individual to also play a significant role in the manifestation of the oracle.

page 22
In the end, if the prophecy was to be believed given the audience's understanding of how the entire saga had played out, it was the Force's will that the only way to restore balance to the Force was by essentially pressing the reset button on the hard drive and performing a complete reboot. The galaxy engulfed itself in a chaotic conflict that persisted for decades until the people came to the realization that order and virtue comes not with fear and control of the masses, but with goodness and freedom of will and the ultimate destruction of its sinister mastermind.

page 22
Nobody?.and I mean absolutely nobody?..knew whether the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force was in motion - unless?.that is?.you were to ask Qui Gon. All the players could do was act appropriately to preserve the perceptions of their own destinies.

And last, but certainly not least?.page 13
"The prophecy needs no further mention or explanation. The audience has been given all that it needs to know. The fact that even the characters don't fully understand and believe the prophecy speaks volumes. Though the galaxy needs saving, it doesn't necessarily realize it, nor does it know how to accomplish it.

The prophecy alluded to in TPM suggested that the Force will come back into balance. As we all know, prophecies are always open to interpretation. Taking a literal translation of the prophecy to mean that The Chosen One, and only The Chosen One, would be responsible for bringing balance to the Force would be a very narrow interpretation.

One must remember that Lucas' portrayal of "the Force" is one as being "an energy field that is created by all living things". "Life creates it" and "makes it grow". "Its energy surrounds us and binds us". And as Qui Gon explained to Anakin, it, too, has a will all its own expressed through midichlorians.

That being said, the Force cannot be truly brought into balance unless all life in the Lucas galaxy begins a reformation. In the darkest days, virtue and wisdom take a backseat to power and greed. These righteous qualities do not have a chance to flourish again until life begins making mistakes and has to pay for its errors. When all hope seems lost, the galaxy finds the determination to revolt against the confusion and the angst. A new hope is born, and a civil war erupts - not just between Rebels and Imperials - but between goodness and chaos. There needs to be a reversion of the will of the Force to its balanced purity.

Yes....Anakin is The Chosen One, for he was conceived by the will of the Force, but his role is only the end game. The ruination of the orc

 

"Because that one little scene, regardless of how much thought went into it at the time, drastically changed the story, and caused repercussions that weren't foreseen"

Nor were these repercussions even known by you, until just recently. Did you consider this line as bad writing at the time that you saw the film?

Probably not.

"just like suddenly changing Leia into Luke's long-lost sister (another spur of the moment decision) drastically changed the love story aspects. I don't think Lucas really thought about the changes that would happen by those two 'small' changes to the story."

Explain your reasoning on "spur of the moment", since the Annotated Screenplays show a great deal of work going into most significant changes in the story.

Secondly, what, exactly, is the tremendous "damage" caused by these two changes? ?

"Han actually got the shield down during the lightsaber battle between Luke and Vader and the Falcon was on its way already."

True, but they still had to get through the Imperial fleet and DS guns, and outrun the Ties in the process. Had Palpatine still been in control of the fleet, Lando might not have even made it to the reactor, and probably wouldn't have made it out alive (since he barely made it by the skin of his teeth despite Palpatine being killed.)

"even if Luke had died, the Emperor and Vader would still have been destroyed."

...and no one would have learned the lesson of Vader falling to the Dark Side, and being able to come back, showing that despite being more "powerful", the Light Side is ultimately more beneficial in the long run. Future Jedi would not learn what "balance" was, or why it was necessary. Future Sith would be easily created, as Force-sensitive people would fall prey to the Dark Side of the Force, not aware of the dangers involved. Also, since the practitioners of the Sith "Rule of 2" are gone, there's nothing to prevent a large group of Sith from becoming prevalent again.

Old mistakes would be repeated if Anakin hadn't saved Luke, and made Luke leave the Death Star. Luke wanted to stay behind, remember?

"what would have stopped Vader and the Emperor from escaping in the same way that Luke escaped?"

"The rebel fleet."

That was getting its ass kicked by the Imperials, under the control of Palpatine?!?

Naw, Palps and Vader could have easily slipped away. Vader did it in ANH. Don't forget the circumstances of the battle. Most of the fleet was engaged with the Star Destroyers, and the few ships that weren't were inside the Death Star. The one or two rebel fighters that left the DS to draw fighters away had their own hands full, with several Ties on their tails. There was simply too much fighting going on to keep track of a lone shuttle flying out of the DS. Otherwise, Luke would have been blown to bits as soon as he left the DS.

"(And the fact that Luke escaped in an imperial shuttle would imply that the Rebels weren't too fussy about shooting down escaping ships!)"

Oops, Scott3eyez came to the same conclusion that I did.

"I think it?s more than just one event."

Not according to the Prophecy. Otherwise, where's the info about Luke falling to the Dark Side, or Vader losing a hand, or Luke sacrificing himself to Palpatine?

Not there.

"after that we see Han blow up the shield generator and the rebels begin their attack on the DS. So-.isn?t Luke?s action of refusing to fight and declaring his father a Jedi the moment when ?something suddenly changes.? ?"

Congratulations. You've just made Han the "Chosen One"

"my point is that Sidious and Vader aren't invulnerable to everything but the chosen One. They could be killed by something other."

True, but that changes nothing. Cruise foresaw his future and did everything he could to stop it, and yet ended up "shooting" the man anyways!

Why, because the actual event was already foreseen! It was doomed to happen. Max Von Sydo