Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

>>>I think what Dr. E is saying is that we didn't know of the prophecy or any chosen one until the PT came out. And that does drastically change the framework of the OT. It diminishes Luke's role in the entire series.

How so? Luke's mission doesn't change- he's still trying to bring back Anakin, and he's still doing it for exactly the same reasons. What the prophecy does isn't changing the framework of the OT, but putting the OT inside another framework, and turns it from a trilogy into half a saga- but nothing within the trilogy is changed.

If anything, in having him working for the Force to help Anakin fulfil a prophecy he knows nothing about, what it does to Luke's role is puts it into a bigger picture. He's not just the last hope for the Jedi to not die out- he's the last hope for the universal balance to not be destroyed forever.

Nothing about what he does or why he does it is changed.

>>>The prophecy itself was never mentioned, nothing was said to the audience or to the other characters in the movies to indicate the existence of a prophecy about 'one who would bring balance to the force,' or how this person might be a threat to the emperor.

No, but we're not talking about a Friday XIII part 9 type, "The emperor can only be killed by a special lightsaber wielded by a member of his family" addition here. We're talking about something that not only seamlessly fits in with the original trilogy, but also fills in plot holes that had to be resolved- such as why Obi Wan spends 20 years waiting for a chance to train Luke instead of training another Jedi offspring, or having kids of his own and training them, etc. etc.

"I think what Dr. E is saying is that we didn't know of the prophecy or any chosen one until the PT came out. And that does drastically change the framework of the OT."

I would agree with the first part, but not the second.

"It diminishes Luke's role in the entire series."

How so? ?

To a person who believes Luke to be the "Chosen One", it should show Luke, the hero, finally defeating evil, and reclaiming his father's soul in the process.

"Maybe that's because the "chosen one" who the prophecy said would "bring balance to the force" had fallen to the Dark Side, and was working with the Emperor. Perhaps they had become too arrogant, and didn't think that Anakin/Vader could ever turn back."

Agreed. Vader claimed Luke was "just a boy", and there was no one left to train him. Vader himself wanted to "finish" Luke's training. Vader attributed all of Luke's training to Obi-wan, and never knew of Yoda's existence (though the novelization says otherwise.) What Vader saw as harmless, Palpatine "knew" would eventually come to bite them on the ass. Vader, thinking himself the "Chosen One", wouldn't understand this. Palpatine, who could see into the future, appears to think otherwise. It's not until the duel of Bespin that Vader begins to see Luke's strengths, and realizes that Luke could be the "Chosen One".

Everyone begins to focus on Luke, which takes the attention off of Anakin. Hence, my thread The Emperor believed that Luke was the "Chosen One".

"putting the OT inside another framework, and turns it from a trilogy into half a saga- but nothing within the trilogy is changed."

Agreed, for the most part, but some character motivations have changed, and the meaning of some acts can be construed differently. Nonetheless, I don't think these changes affect the OT negatively. much less "drastically".

"fills in plot holes that had to be resolved- such as why Obi Wan spends 20 years waiting for a chance to train Luke instead of training another Jedi offspring, or having kids of his own and training them, etc. etc."

DAMN! I can't believe I forgot that one! Attaboy, Scott3eyez!

Luke isn't the only Force-sensitive person in the galaxy. the Jedi Purge only purged the existing Jedi (and the pawdawans). What of all the Force-sensitive people born later? Why not try to raise another "army" of Jedi, rather than focus on simply one boy, and not even until he's in his late teens?

Luke isn't the only Force-sensitive person in the galaxy.

no? are you sure about that? outside of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Darth Vader, Palpatine and Leia, who else is force sensitive?

What of all the Force-sensitive people born later?

who would those people be? i see no evidence of any other force sensitives born later in the films.

why did Obi wait until Luke was 20? i dont remember the explanation for the contradiction between wating until Luke is old enough in the OT and Anakin being too old in TPM. this was not a plot hole until TPM changed[i/] the rules.

"who would those people be? i see no evidence of any other force sensitives born later in the films."

If Force sensitive people had randomly been born to non-Force sensitive parents prior to the formation of the Empire, I don't see why it would stop happening.

"why did Obi wait until Luke was 20? i dont remember the explanation for the contradiction between wating until Luke is old enough in the OT and Anakin being too old in TPM. this was not a plot hole until TPM changed the rules."

In the OT, Yoda said that Luke was too old.

If Force sensitive people had randomly been born to non-Force sensitive parents prior to the formation of the Empire, I don't see why it would stop happening.

but again, this is purely a PT notion. not only that but just because something could happen or not happen does not mean it did or did not. pure speculation with no evidence to support it.

"not only that but just because something could happen or not happen does not mean it did or did not. pure speculation with no evidence to support it"

Just like the OT gives no evidence that Force sensitive beings are still born, it gives no evidence that they aren't. Therefore, your argument is also pure speculation with no evidence to support it. When the films are watched in order from 1-6, there will be nothing that says Force sensitive beings are no longer born (unless Episode 3 somehow addresses this). The difference will be that they don't know or train those who are Force sensitive.

Since I'm sure "That boy is our last hope" / "No, there is another" will be brought up, I'll try to explain that, even with the assumption that there are other Force sensitive beings around the galaxy. Yoda and Obi-Wan realize that it'll be extremely difficult to turn Vader back into Anakin. They know that it'd take someone special - presumably someone with a blood relationship to Anakin - to be able to break the bond that Vader has with the Dark Side. They need to find a way to appeal to Anakin, so that he can overcome the Vader persona. If Obi-Wan, someone who was once good friends with Anakin, wasn't able to do it, then it pretty much removes every chance that another non-family member would be able to.

"who would those people be? i see no evidence of any other force sensitives born later in the films."

"If Force sensitive people had randomly been born to non-Force sensitive parents prior to the formation of the Empire, I don't see why it would stop happening."

Thank you, YJ, for pointing that out for me. I honestly didn't think this point would be brought up, but just goes to show...

Dr. E., I usually agree with your points, but are you telling me you believe Luke to be the actual "last" Force-sensitive person to be born? Do you think he is never able to restore the Jedi Order? ?

"this was not a plot hole until TPM changed the rules."

"In the OT, Yoda said that Luke was too old."

Ah, but the rules have changed in the OT, for the Jedi. Yoda learned his lesson. He sees that Jedi need attachments, and family, to provide stability in their lives. The Jedi were becoming "distanced" from the people they were supposed to serve. Not to mention that fact that haveing feelings for others is becoming very important - so much so that this is what helps Luke "save" Anakin.

"If Force sensitive people had randomly been born to non-Force sensitive parents prior to the formation of the Empire, I don't see why it would stop happening."

"but again, this is purely a PT notion."

Meaning what? That it's "false"?" ?

"not only that but just because something could happen or not happen does not mean it did or did not. pure speculation with no evidence to support it."

Logical deduction. There are patterns and parallels in the Saga. We know what happens before and after Ep.III, so it's not too hard to figure out. I'm not saying I know these things for a fact, but then you've not explained why Force-sensitive people are not being born anymore, either.

"They need to find a way to appeal to Anakin, so that he can overcome the Vader persona. If Obi-Wan, someone who was once good friends with Anakin, wasn't able to do it, then it pretty much removes every chance that another non-family member would be able to."

Agreed. Then again, all of this presupposes that we aren't given more details about the Prophecy as well. Yoda and Obi-wan may have known more than they were telling (A distinct possibility, IMO.)

If Obi-Wan, someone who was once good friends with Anakin

after seeing AOTC, its clear to me that its another "from a certain point of view" statement. maybe in episode III?

Dr. E., I usually agree with your points, but are you telling me you believe Luke to be the actual "last" Force-sensitive person to be born? Do you think he is never able to restore the Jedi Order?

i dont know, and neither do you. there is always Leia...

I'm not saying I know these things for a fact, but then you've not explained why Force-sensitive people are not being born anymore, either.

well it seems Obi and Yoda are pretty concerned that Luke is the only hope, blood relation or not. besides since no one has any proof of whether or not there are any other force sensitives, its a moot point.

"but again, this is purely a PT notion."

Meaning what? That it's "false"?"

from a certain point of view. it is information added after the fact, and as you know, i think of the PT as EU (more like P.U.) anyway.

"are you telling me you believe Luke to be the actual "last" Force-sensitive person to be born? Do you think he is never able to restore the Jedi Order?"

"i dont know, and neither do you. there is always Leia..."

I never said I did know, but at least I'm making an effort to justify my assertions. BTW, Leia and Luke are twins, so that doesn't apply. I'm asking about people born well after Luke's birth.

Otherwise, your reasoning would imply that "balance" refers to getting rid of all Sith and Jedi.

"but again, this is purely a PT notion."

"Meaning what? That it's "false"?"

"from a certain point of view. it is information added after the fact, and as you know, i think of the PT as EU (more like P.U.) anyway."

Well, as you may remember, I share that belief as well. Nonetheless, we can use the information in both trilogies to deduce possible scenarios in Ep.III. This endeavor is the point of the thread.

"besides since no one has any proof of whether or not there are any other force sensitives, its a moot point."

Well, there's no reason not to believe that there are, and a lack of reasoning against this doesn't negate it. The EU builds successfully on this logical conclusion. If you want to believe that Luke and Leia are the last Force-sensitives, so be it.

Of course, if you believe we never can know, then let me tell you that this thread is not for the faint of heart, because there's a great deal of informed discussion going on, and your attitude that "no one knows" implies that no efforts should even be made.

Well, there's no reason not to believe that there are, and a lack of reasoning against this doesn't negate it.

other than there not being any? i can safely say that there are no force sensitives other than the ones mentioned above,(Obi-Wan etc.) that are seen, referred to, mentioned, or talked about in the films.

additionally, character attitudes toward "hokey religions" certainly implies that people dont believe in the force.

looking further into the films of the OT, if theere were other force sensitives, would you not expect the Rebel Alliance or the Empire to be making an effort to enlist these people to their cause?

I see this thread lives. By the way, I typed up an epic-length reply to several points by MeBe and Scott from when I was posting here last week, but never posted it because I got bored with this discussion and I didn't want to take the time to edit it. However, if you are interested in my reply, PM me and I'll send it to you.

Cheers!

Dr E,

>>>>i can safely say that there are no force sensitives other than the ones mentioned above,(Obi-Wan etc.) that are seen, referred to, mentioned, or talked about in the films.


So certain are you?

So who exactly did you think Yoda was telling Luke to "pass on what you have learnt" to, if the only other "Force-sensitive" (I hate that phrase) that would ever exist again is the sister that he wasn't supposed to even know about?

>>>additionally, character attitudes toward "hokey religions" certainly implies that people dont believe in the force.

It certainly does. And Yoda's attitude towards people not believing is "that is why you fail"...

>>>looking further into the films of the OT, if theere were other force sensitives, would you not expect the Rebel Alliance or the Empire to be making an effort to enlist these people to their cause?

Well, as far as the Rebels go, since there's no way for them to know who they are or how to train them, not really, no.

As for the Empire, ESB makes it clear what the Emperor thinks of the only "force-sensitive" that he knows of; he sees him first and foremost as a threat.

As for the Empire, ESB makes it clear what the Emperor thinks of the only "force-sensitive" that he knows of; he sees him first and foremost as a threat.

interesting that Luke is the only one he knows of. why cant he see any others?

He doesn't even "see" Luke until just before Luke destroys the Death Star, so I don't see how you consider this "proof" for your scenario. ?

i am not calling anythng proof, but it certainly casts doubt and raises questions. there is no "proof" of other force sensitives either. why cant he see any others? ?

anyway im getting really bored of this debate. my feelings on the whole thing are that Anakin was the antagonist in the OT and Lucas is trying to say the whole saga is about Anakin after the fact. if the PT didnt exist, we wouldnt even be having this discussion, since there is nothing in the OT that shows Anakin is the hero. this discussion has really become MEH.

would anakin have destroyed the emperor AND shunned the darkside, without luke trying to bring him back to the goodside?

>>>interesting that Luke is the only one he knows of. why cant he see any others?

Because nobody else has been learning how to be a Jedi, and creating a similar "disturbance in the Force" to the one Palpatine detected.

(And given that he's gone to great lengths to wipe out the Jedi, I don't think he's got much need for a midichlorian counter )

>>>>my feelings on the whole thing are that Anakin was the antagonist in the OT and Lucas is trying to say the whole saga is about Anakin after the fact.



Luke was clearly the central character of the OT, but Anakin is clearly the central character of the saga. The first three episodes revolve around him, and while Vader is clearly the antagonist of the OT, everything Luke does is motivated by Anakin- firstly by trying to follow in his footsteps in ANH, then by avenging him in ESB, then by redeeming him in ROTJ.

There is no way after ESB that the central character of the 6 film saga could have ever been anyone else, prophecy or no prophecy. (Unless he'd made 3 films about Luke racing down beggars canyon...)

>>>if the PT didnt exist, we wouldnt even be having this discussion, since there is nothing in the OT that shows Anakin is the hero. this discussion has really become MEH.

Sorry you feel that way, but who said "Anakin is the hero"? Where did that come from?

I'm almost certain Lucas hasn't said it. Don't think it was McCallum. Or anyone in this thread, come to that...

You can have a central character in a story who isn't a hero, you know.

Luke was clearly the central character of the OT, but Anakin is clearly the central character of the saga. The first three episodes revolve around him, and while Vader is clearly the antagonist of the OT, everything Luke does is motivated by Anakin- firstly by trying to follow in his footsteps in ANH, then by avenging him in ESB, then by redeeming him in ROTJ.

that's like saying Blofeld is the central character of the Bond series. after all he motivates everything Bond does...

and i suppose the Sherlock Holmes stories are really all about Moriarty?

You can have a central character in a story who isn't a hero, you know.

yes, i know. my mistake on the choice of the word "hero". how about "protagonist"? do you think Anakin is the protagonist of the saga? would you still think so if the PT never tried to make him the protagonist, and based your evaluation of him only on the OT?

"that's like saying Blofeld is the central character of the Bond series. after all he motivates everything Bond does...

and i suppose the Sherlock Holmes stories are really all about Moriarty?"

Um, Blofeld and Moriarity aren't in every single episode. ?

oh brother.

...so is Sauron the central character of the Rings saga?

what were episodes 7, 8, and 9 of the Star Wars saga going to be about without Anakin?

Dr. E,

I think, from what I've heard, that ep. 7 was to be about Anakin and Luke teaming up to track down and destroy the Emperor.

Lady Sami

Actually, Anakin always died in ROTJ (or, at the very least, didn't show up in the final trilogy, since Luke went it alone.)

These were the plans presumably as of the production of Empire:

* EPISODE 6: Leia was to be elected "Queen of her people" leaving her isolated. Han was to die. Luke confronted Vader and went on with his life alone. Leia was not to be Luke's sister.

* EPISODE 7: Third trilogy was to focus on Luke's life as a Jedi, with very few details planned out.

* EPISODE 8: Luke's sister (not Leia) appears from another part of the galaxy.

* EPISODE 9: First appearance of the Emperor.

---

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so then (at least at the time of ESB) Anakin was never intended to be the central character of the saga...

only of the PT.

Well, since Luke doesn't even exist in the first trilogy, except for his birth at the end of it, you can't say the same about him, either.

I guess Yoda is the central character of the Saga. All this did start out as the "Journal of the Whills" He's in five of the six films.

Of course, the Emperor must be the cental figure of the Saga, since he exists in all six episodes, if not all "nine".


Now, what were you saying about Sauron...?

(So much for reasoning...)

Well, since Luke doesn't even exist in the first trilogy, except for his birth at the end of it, you can't say the same about him, either.

of course i can. ill say that the entire PT is about the events leading to the birth of the chosen one, the "new hope". all the stuff about Anakin is just to show how the chosen one makes the right choices in the OT where his father did not...

... how he fulfilled the prophecy where his father did not.

the story of Anakin was to show how easily the dark side can turn good people in contrast with how Luke, as the "chosen one" resisited the dark side and turned the last dark jedi/lord of sith to the light, thus redeeming his father and fulfilling the prophecy.

the "reasoning" goes both ways.