Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

Well how could there be a balance anyway? I mean look there's only two Sith, like Yoda said in Ep1, "always two there are, no more, no less," but Anakin didn't cause the imbalance when turning over, and he had killed the emperor in the end so who knows.

 

"If Sith have always existed then Sith are not causing the inbalance, Anakin is."

The imbalance has been around as long as the Sith have. Sure, it may have became even more... unbalanced... when Anakin turned, but the imbalance had been there since well before Anakin was born.

Why would they mention "bringing balance to the Force" in TPM, if the imbalance didn't start until 10-15 years later?

 

"Balance of the force is fond within one's self. Luke gains that balance when he refuses to kill Darth Vader."

But DV and Sid were still alive after this "choice". By your reasoning, Luke could have walked off the DS at that point, and the Force would have been in balance.

How does this make Anakin a Force Ghost?

"I take anything GL says now a day with a grain of salt. It may change tomorrow."

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Lucas has been consistent on this from day one. You will not find one single contrary quote from GL on this.

Your examples...

"It has been the Adventures of Luke Skywalker." - Actually, it was "The Star Wars" and "Anakin Starkiller". You are referring to rough drafts that existed long before the films, not after...

"It has been the journey of the Droids (C-3PO and R2-D2)." - Almost, it was said to be told from the perspective of the droids, which still is true "from a certain point of view". The droids are in every film, and are privy to all details (either immediately, or later in offscreen moments). Besides, who else would survive from "a long time ago" to tell this story?

"It is now (and who know for how long) the story of Anakin Skywalker." - Always has been, always shall. Again, good luck finding a Lucas qoute that says otherwise.

"Lucas said that the Dark Side is stronger" - It is, which is why Sidious was defeated. Luke didn't use the Light Side to defeat the Sith (which Sidious could easily counter), he used love and compassion, against which Sidious had no knowledge and no defense. Likewise, Anakin did not use the Dark or Light Side to kill Palpatine, he simply picked him up and threw him down the shaft.

"I thought the prophecy was about the one that would bring balance to the force, not the one that would kill the Sith."

Then, again, your problem is defining what "balance" is. Lucas has told us over and over. There's a difference between being cautious to his idea, and simply being contrary.

" "I've got to save you."-Luke
"You all ready have, Luke."-Anakin
Luke not killing Vader and saving his father from the Dark Side is what balanced the force, not the death of Palpatine."

So Palpatine should have lived? Come on, this is a fantasy film. The bad guy and his henchmen are always killed in the end, and good overcomes evil. Had Sidious not been killed, he would have called in the stormtroopers, who would have 1) killed Luke and Anakin for their insolence, or 2) held them long enough for all of them to have been destroyed in the DS blast.

Palpatine/Sidious is being set up as a major baddie from TPM on. HE is the main man, Anakin is just a duped kid.

"Balance is good and evil at equal levels. If their are no Dark Siders and only Light Siders then the force is not balanced."

But there have always been Sith, so your reasoning eats itself.

Balance isn't the number of Jedi and Sith. The Force is LIFE! When life is threatened or extinguished, THE FORCE IS OUT OF BALANCE!

Palpatine -
1) has the Jedi Order wiped out, thousands of lives taken
2) builds Star Destroyers that can wipe life off the face of a planet
3) builds Death Stars that can destroy whole planets
4) garrisons millions of stormtroopers throughout the galaxy, to enforce his rule with an iron fist (read- kill insurrectors)

Vader helped with #1, but Palpatine had his Imperial Army and stormtroopers to carry out all four of these actions. Simply "turning" Vader was not sufficient to stop all of these actions, or prevent future actions! In order to stop the Empire and restore the Republic, Sidious has to be stopped. Fighting against the Empire was taking too long, and takiong too many lives from both sides. Besides, the rebellion could never have won a face-to-face fight with the Empire, which is why they risked so much to take out Palpatine. Had they missed this opportunity, most of their fleet would have been vanquished, and another Death Star would have existed.

You wa

 

MBJ, Bravo!

You have posted to much good stuff in that last reply for me to pick out just bits and peices. Thank god for common sense.


Oh, a little tidbit from a long time ago
(swiped from Ferwithy's sig)


You know, I try not to think about that.
--George Lucas, on the EU

 

If Anakin was the Chosen One, he would not have betrayed the Order.

That has nothing to do with it. The prophecy was not about "the one who never betray the Jedi", but "the one who would bring balance to the force". Watch the movies again.

 

You know, I try not to think about that.
--George Lucas, on the EU



Yes, I know that, but no one else here seems to consider that, either.

I see G-S changed his icon, AGAIN!

Maybe there's a glitch with the icons?

 

OKay well obviously my point isn't getting out to you people. So far only two people have agreed with my.

 

We get your point... we just think you're wrong and we are prefering to take George Lucas's opinion over your's and OC's....

 

*once again applauding MeBeJedi for his highly intelligent responses to Obi-Can's [edited] posts*

If Sith have always existed then Sith are not causing the inbalance, Anakin is.

OK, you're kidding, right? You think that all the Sith that lived before, including Palpatine, are less evil than Anakin is?

Give me a friggin' break. Why have I even bothered here?

Meaning that Luke couldn't succumb to the dark side in order to kill the Sith so he had Anakin do it for him and then was clever enough to have Vader kill himself as well. Killed two birds with one stone.

MeBe is right--watch the damn films, for crying out loud.

Luke had Anakin turn for him--what, when he was in utero? Because with the timeline we've been given, that's when he turned.

And Luke couldn't turn? He came pretty damn close in ROTJ, then at the last minute made the choice to throw his lightsaber down and not fight. If Luke couldn't turn, then Yoda wouldn't have been so worried about him taking off to save Han and Leia.

That proves they were open minded enough to see the flaws. Flaws in the system doesn't mean it's outdated or that 1000 jedi need to murdered so two selfish individuals can get married and still retain their day jobs.

Can we spell "oversimplification of what happened", boys and girls?

I don't think Palpatine murdered the Jedi so that Anakin and Padme could get married. I don't think Palpatine gave a rat's ass whether Anakin and Padme got married, except for how useful their feelings would be to him and his Empire.

And God forbid that anyone might want to have a job and a family.

Anakin and smart don't really go together. His sophomoric solutions were pitiful and dangerous. So there's corruption in the senate thats so much worse than torture, and murder, and ruling by choking your subordinates when they mess up. Poor Anakin, he's been duped, convinced and pushed into becoming the guy thats got to go around murdering and tortureing all these ungrateful dissidents and rebels.

You know, you should just start an "I hate Anakin Skywalker" thread somewhere else, instead of calling him stupid here.

He might have been too stupid to see what Palpatine was doing, but then again, so were your precious perfect Jedi.

Deputies get hung much more frequently than the Sherriffs. The boss says take care of this for me, and subordinate plans and perpetrates.

I don't follow how that makes the deputy more evil than the sheriff. You don't even seem to think Palpatine is evil. I'd love to see you try to submit substantial, logical proof that Palpatine isn't as evil as Anakin.

It was Lukes sub-concious he can fantasize about anyone he wishes.

Oh, geez. *rolls eyes* This doesn't even deserve a comment, but I'll make one anyway.

Sounds like you're the one twisting the movie plotline and George Lucas' words into the Anakin-Is-Satan plotline that you want--as opposed to the concept that...*gasp*...Anakin is actually a complex character with human frailties.

YJ edit: That wasn't really necessary

 

"OKay well obviously my point isn't getting out to you people. So far only two people have agreed with my point."

Not only does that not surprise me, but big whoop how many people get your point. The number of people in agreement doesn't prove or diprove your point either way. ?

"Deputies get hung much more frequently than the Sherriffs. The boss says take care of this for me, and subordinate plans and perpetrates."

"I don't follow how that makes the deputy more evil than the sheriff. You don't even seem to think Palpatine is evil. I'd love to see you try to submit substantial, logical proof that Palpatine isn't as evil as Anakin."

Palpatine is the snake in paradise. He makes Anakin eat of the forbidden fruit (the Dark Side). Killing Palpatine is the whole point of ROTJ. Why is this not clear? ?

The sheriff/deputy analogy was simply used to show the relationship, and you've jumped all over it with a bizarre extrapolation which I've never seen in any western. And I'd love to see you answer a_g's question.

Bizarre reasoning.

(Hold the fort for me, a_g, I gotta go )

 

Going to try, MeBe...it's gotten really difficult when someone is so irrationally close-minded and hateful towards a fictional character. But I'm armed.

 

..."he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith"

From this we can derive:
Sith = imbalance
Palpatine = Sith This is a known fact
Palpatine is older than Anakin
Palpatine was in existence before Anakin
Therefore:
The Force was out of balance before Anakin came into being

I dont doubt the force was out of balance before Anakin existed. As MEBEJedi said ,however, Sith have always existed so it's not simply the fact that since Sith exist and therefore there's imbalance, there's something more that's pushing it into that state.

I reiterate that from your post and other's that George's quote is wrong, he says that Anakin's turning to the darkside caused the imbalance. I don't believe that to be true.


Ya'll are so funny. Such passion for Star Wars and Anakin, I love it.

 

"I reiterate that from your post and other's that George's quote is wrong, he says that Anakin's turning to the darkside caused the imbalance."

Okay, let's look at the quote again:

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy..."

dark forces... which in turn destroy the balance...
Anakin will be taken over... which in turn destroy the balance...

The subject of "destroy the balance" is the dark forces, not Anakin or Anakin's turning. If it was meant to be Anakin or his turning, the quote would be "... which in turn destroys the balance..." The lack of an 's' at the end of 'destroy' means that it is talking about something in the plural sense, thereby the dark forces, and not Anakin.

"Sith have always existed so it's not simply the fact that since Sith exist and therefore there's imbalance"

Why not? Why would they refer to a prophesy that would restore balance if there is no imbalance at the time?

 

Well YodaJeff as you pointed out in an earlier post this was translated from a Japanese mag article and there is much lost in that tranlation, so it could be either way. As with everything with George, you never know till the final cut is on screen.

 

As MEBEJedi said ,however, Sith have always existed so it's not simply the fact that since Sith exist and therefore there's imbalance, there's something more that's pushing it into that state.

You're right--it's the fact that the Sith have returned after a millenia of extinction that is pushing the Force out of balance.

And sarcasm doesn't suit you. If we weren't passionate about Star Wars, we wouldn't be here. And your passionate hatred for Anakin--a fictional character--is rather disgusting. There are plenty of people in the real world who have earned that kind of hate. (Before you make any comments about my love for a fictional character, let me remind you that, one, I have enough love to go around--for fictional characters and for people in the real world--and whereas having enough love to go around is not a character flaw, having that much hatred is. And two, my personality is a lot like Anakin's; and finally, his redemption gave me hope for humanity, and has made him my favorite character for 20 years running.)

I thought I hated Palpatine until I read your Anakin-hatred-spewing posts.

YJ: Sorry about that. Some of my code-talking I use with my IM buddies slipped over into the forum--happened due to an explosion of my short temper, the one that caused one of my best buddies to name me after a volcano (*waves at Breezy* love ya, girl! ). Won't happen again.

 

anidanami124

"Ok what was going on in Anakin's head well watching his son die."

Thank God someone is paying attention to the films. Anakin willingly brought his son to Palpatine, thinking he would be turned..

Oh stop yes what you said about me was true. You see the thing is I have watched the frist three OT moives some many times I lost count. The one thing that I always liked and believed is that when Vader...no it was Anakin who was watching his son die.
He at long last saw what Paly was like. Heck Paly would have killed ether Vader or Luke. He at long last was able to see the lies that he used and he had enough. And wacthing son being killed was the last straw.


"It is too late for me, my son", "He will be your new master now" The thing I liked about this line is that Anakin did not know that Paly did not care if Luke killed his own father. He also did not care that Anakin killed hsi own son. It also makes the part where Anakin kills Paly mcuh more powerful.

Anakin expected his son to be turned, and almost killed him in the process, as well as making threats against Leia.

This is also true. And again when he saw that his son would not fight Paly and that Paly would kill Luke. Well Anakin came back to the Light. he was no longer Vader he was Anakin again. After 20+ years.

Yet still, you remain unconvinced that he doesn't believe sacrificing his own children is a good thing! Vader is duped, and cannot see the truth of it until it is almost too late! THIS IS WHAT THE SAGA IS ABOUT!

Again true Anakin felt that the dark side wold give him ever thing he ever wanted. Instead he got what a dead wife. Not knowing Luke or Leia were his kids and so on. He saw he was duped when he saw his own son being killed. Heck he may have even foudn out he was duped when Paly told Luke to kill his own father. Who really knows. But he did see what he had done. And yes it is to bad that it was almost to late. But better late then never

 

Again true Anakin felt that the dark side wold give him ever thing he ever wanted. Instead he got what a dead wife. Not knowing Luke or Leia were his kids and so on. He saw he was duped when he saw his own son being killed. Heck he may have even foudn out he was duped when Paly told Luke to kill his own father. Who really knows. But he did see what he had done. And yes it is to bad that it was almost to late.

Absolutely.

While Anakin does make the choice to turn, we are going to feel sorry for him for having made this choice, for the fact that he thought it would give him and his loved ones a better life when in reality he was being tricked by Palpatine.

Lucas has said that we would feel more sympathetic towards Vader when we watch the OT, after we have seen the PT. (I think some will choose not to sympathize anyway, but...oh, well. )

If Anakin's redemption at the end of ROTJ means nothing, because it was "too late" or whatever your reasoning is, then what hope is there for any of us? Don't do anything wrong in the first place? That isn't how humanity operates.

It has always been a pet peeve of mine when people say "It's too late for 'sorry'" or when someone who has done wrong repents for his/her wrongdoing and others say, "Well, tough. You should have thought of that before you acted. I still think you're evil." *rolls eyes* These folks are putting themselves on a pedestal above those who are... *gasp* ...human, and are saying that they are above certain wrongdoings no matter what the situation.

How snooty is that?

And what would you have the wrongdoer do to repent? Turn back time?

 

"Well YodaJeff as you pointed out in an earlier post this was translated from a Japanese mag article and there is much lost in that tranlation, so it could be either way. As with everything with George, you never know till the final cut is on screen. "

No, you aren't getting off that easy. You missed my prior quote from D_Lowe...

"Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
--George Lucas

He got this from the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.

Buy it if you don't already have it, and hear for yourself. There's no mistranslation here.

//poof!

 

I agree completely and totally with anakin_girl and MeBeJedi.

Fuzzy Ratt
I thought the prophecy was about the one that would bring balance to the force, not the one that would kill the Sith.

IT is, but Anakin brings balance by wiping out the last of the Sith - therefore, the balance occurs when the Sith were wiped out.

Obi-Can

So explain to me what George considers balance instead of talking around it. His quote says that Anakin's turning causes the inbalance. So why is that.

Again, you're reading the quote wrong. As MeBeJedipointed out, it's the dark forces who are causing the imbalance, not Anakin. If it were Anakin, the verb would have been 'destroys' not 'destroy', because Anakin is singular. However, dark forces is plural and therefore the verb is destroy.

If Sith have always existed then Sith are not causing the inbalance, Anakin is.

Sidious is. As, again, he pointed out, all the other Sith hid in the shadows and kept a low profile, so they weren't harming anything. But when PALPATINE (not Anakin) decides he wants to take over the universe(which happened long before Qui-Gon & co ran into Anakin), then things go out of balance, especially when he annihilates the Jedi order. It is SIDIOUS who is causing the imbalance, not Anakin.

To prove this, let's say Anakin was never born. So, what happens? Well, let's see...Sidious still wins (either through the Trade Federation or Naboo, it matters little since he's playing for both sides) and Sidious still takes over the world and there is still an imbalance. Sidious is the problem.

Meaning that Luke couldn't succumb to the dark side in order to kill the Sith so he had Anakin do it for him and then was clever enough to have Vader kill himself as well. Killed two birds with one stone.

Yes, because that whole bit on how Luke loved his father unconditionally and how he wanted to bring him back, that was just lies Luke spun so that Vader would commit suicide and take his boss down with him. I guess that's why Luke tries to drag Vader with him and save him from dying on the Death Star, too, and why he builds his father a funeral pyre. Vader choose to sacrifice himself and kill Palpatine to save his son; Luke didn't convince him of that.

Anakin and smart don't really go together.

He is smart; He wouldn't be so effective in the imperial army if he weren't smart.

His sophomoric solutions were pitiful and dangerous.

I wouldn't say they were pitiful...Considering that's what comes to pass, and the Empire manages to run smoothly for about 20-odd years or so, it seems like they were actually quite successful. (Dangerous, however, I would agree with.)

So there's corruption in the senate thats so much worse than torture, and murder, and ruling by choking your subordinates when they mess up.

The corruption extends beyond the senate; EVERYONE IN POWER in the PT is corrupt, it's broken, it doesn't work at all. The Empire might have been brutal, but at least it did actually work.

Poor Anakin, he's been duped, convinced and pushed into becoming the guy thats got to go around murdering and tortureing all these ungrateful dissidents and rebels.

I don't think he murders and tortures everyone one of them, the only one we ever see him torture are Leia and Han, who are both high up rebel leaders. It's doubtful they torture every person they capture until they either given in or are killed. As for killing, well, those rebels and dissidents have waged war on the empire, and they would kill him if they had the chance to. It's a battlefield; Vader isn't the only one there doing the killing.

In order to save the Republic?? Did you miss the part where the Republic becomes an Empire ruled by a dictator.

An extremely clever dictator who manages to fool EVERYONE IN THE GALAXY, not just Anakin. And don't forget that Palpatine has been whispering these things in Anakin's ear for YEARS, since Anakin was a CHILD. Yeah, of course A

 

JKBurtola, your otherwise decent posts still rely unnecessarily on flames. You would do well to stop them, and you've been warned about them already.

I don't care about the warnings, its all reacting neutrally to why I post such flames. I mean I get a little irritated with some people who refuse to acknowledge mine and many others opinions here, and the flames do come out naturally because of that frustration.
And i dispute that my posts rely on flames, much of what I say is exclusive of such comments.

Besides we're just banging our heads against a brick wall here. MasterP, Obi-Can and those of a similar opinion, don't seem to acknowledge or even to accept that the opinion of ours and even GL himself has any weight.
This isn't meant to be a flame, but I guess ignorance is bliss.

 

"unnecessarily cruel"...

I couldn't have put it better.

There is an expression that says "Even God can't change yesterday." People mess up. Legally there are consequences, and I feel certain that had Anakin lived, he would have been tried and sentenced by the New Republic--and would have willingly carried out his sentence. However, as far as people such as Luke and Leia forgiving him as a person--there was nothing he could do except ask for forgiveness and be genuinely sorry for what he did. And in that case, I think it is horrible not to forgive.

 

Obi-Can:

"I don't doubt the force was out of balance before Anakin existed."

So now you are saying the force was out of balance before Anakin existed?

But you said on page 5...
" So reading this quote I get from it that once Anakin is taken over by dark forces the balance of the galaxy is detroyed."

Which means back then you were saying that before Anakin is taken over by dark forces there was balance.

The rest of your post on page 5:
"So Anakin's turning to the dark causes the inbalance ... "

So far, your posts on this subject cover this range:
there was imbalance before Anakin was born,
there was imbalance after Anakin was born
and there was worse imbalance after Anakin turns to the dark side.

Mind you, I am not arguing the fact that there was imbalance before Anakin was born..as I stated before, that's the reason why he was born. So there had to be imbalance before he was born. What was there before Anakin existed? The Sith. That's not what you were saying on page 5. You were saying there was balance before Anakin's turn to the dark. This is the issue I have with your statements.

So now what is this??:

"Sith have always existed so it's not simply the fact that since Sith exist and therefore there's imbalance, there's something more that's pushing it into that state.

So now it's "simply" the fact that the Sith=imbalance? What happened to Anakin's turn=imbalance?

So what does all this mean? It means you're contradicting yourself and changing your story looking for ways to explain how Anakin is not the Chosen One, the movies are false and GL is a liar and doesn't know his own story.

And yea, we all are passionate about Anakin, you included. We are on different sides of the fence regarding him, that's all. You're pretty funny too because if you weren't passionate, you wouldn't be posting here for days trying every which way to prove us, the movies, and GL himself wrong. Why are you bothering? Why even watch Star Wars movies or be a fan or post here if it's all not to your liking? Someone here said you should start an "I hate Anakin" thread. I second that motion cause then you'll get everybody 'passionately' agreeing with you...and that kind of passion is ok by you, right? Then it wouldn't be 'funny' it would be serious discussion.


PS: Sophita,
..I happen to be fascinated with Anakin and I have been fascinated with Darth Vader for many years...
was something I said...not that it's a problem for me to be mistaken for anakin_girl, it's quite an honor

 

C_F_D: Thank you.

 

And sarcasm doesn't suit you. If we weren't passionate about Star Wars, we wouldn't be here. And your passionate hatred for Anakin--a fictional character--is rather disgusting. There are plenty of people in the real world who have earned that kind of hate. (Before you make any comments about my love for a fictional character, let me remind you that, one, I have enough love to go around--for fictional characters and for people in the real world--and whereas having enough love to go around is not a character flaw, having that much hatred is. And two, my personality is a lot like Anakin's; and finally, his redemption gave me hope for humanity, and has made him my favorite character for 20 years running

I thought I hated Palpatine until I read your Anakin-hatred-spewing posts.

I'm glad you recognize that Anakin is fictional, otherwise I might get a little scared. I wasn't being sarcastic by the way, I do find it amusing and I don't think of my posts as being Anakin-hatred-spewing, though I do think there is alot of spewing around here. These are my honest opinions, I guess it's just too bad that they bother you so much. But just like you are entitled to yours I'm entitled to mine. I understand your style and keep trying someday it'll work.

Anakin and Vader don't deserve my forgiveness nor does he deserve the galaxy's. As someone stated in a previous
post all he wants and can expect is his own and his son's. He will go down in galactic history as a reviled villian and I agree with that same poster that if he had survived ROTJ he would have been convicted and probably exucuted for his crimes and deservedly so. Because no matter how much you wish it not to be so Anakin and Vader are evil bad people who are completely lacking in compassion or humanity.

The failure isn't in me in not being able to forgive, the fact is that he doesn't deserve it. He had multiple chances and people who love him who showed him the ways of compassion, Padme and Obi-Wan. He rejected them and threw away his chances, in the end he chose his path as George has said repeatedly. He was even willing for his son to follow in his path and be a Slave to sidious.

The fact that he chose his son over Palpy isn't some great miracle, it shows that his old fatal flaw is still his achilles heel -- Attachment. His attachement to Luke in the end causes his death and failure (in becoming all powerful anyway) just as his attachment to his mother did and just as his attachment to Padme will probably lead to his final fall.

I can see where YOda and Obi-Wan could have guessed or hoped that Anakin would chose his son over Sidious, it's not really that far fetched given his history.

 

If forgiveness were earned, there wouldn't be any need for it. People who can "earn" forgiveness haven't done the wrong that they would need forgiving for in the first place.

Forgiveness is a gift given by compassionate people to those who have done wrong and are genuinely sorry.

Because no matter how much you wish it not to be so Anakin and Vader are evil bad people who are completely lacking in compassion or humanity.

If Anakin is "completely" evil, then why did he have to turn to the Dark Side? If Vader is "completely" evil, then why did he save his son? And if Vader is "completely" evil, then what is Palpatine? More than completely evil? Something doesn't make sense here.

And don't talk about what I wish. At least I get my theories from the movies, rather than something I just pulled out of my ass, like Anakin being the product of rape, Luke (from Padme's womb) convincing Anakin to turn to the Dark Side for him, and Luke only imagining that he saw Anakin's Force-ghost at the end of ROTJ.

Oh, and let's not forget that there were never any evil Sith before Anakin.