Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!!

"The fact that he chose his son over Palpy isn't some great miracle, it shows that his old fatal flaw is still his achilles heel -- Attachment. His attachement to Luke in the end causes his death and failure (in becoming all powerful anyway) just as his attachment to his mother did and just as his attachment to Padme will probably lead to his final fall."

See, I would argue the opposite. It was his lack of attachment that caused all these problems. Anakin is taken from his mom, who later dies in his arms. The Jedi deny him to be "attached" to anyone outside the order, and clearly Padme doesn't stick around after Ep.III. Obi-wan knew that offspring of Skywalker would be a significant problem, and Palpatine definitely wanted Luke killed. Hell, it was Obi-wan who put Anakin in the full-bodysuit in the first place.

Anakin is alienated, either from without or within, from all the people who really matter in his life, and can make a positive difference in him. This is one of the major problems with bringing on a Jedi from a late age in the first place, though the effects are certainly compounded by Palpatine, who helps paint Anakin into a corner of alienation, only to open the door for him with false salvation and the lure of power for paybacks against a galaxy that has seemingly turned its back on him, at least in his mind. NO WONDER he had such a hatred for the current Republic and its defenders.

Luke had to reawaken Anakin, and show him that the void in his heart needed to be filled from the inside by love, not by hated against others or blind devotion to a heartless master. The lack of attachment was his achilles heel, because it allowed him to act in a ruthless manner with no concern for the consequences others suffered by his hand. Only by seeing his own son suffer by his decision did Anakin realize the folly of his ways, and the lie he'd been living for twenty years. Luke showed Anakin that he still had love in his heart, despite trying to convince himself otherwise ("I can feel the conflict within you","There is no conflict") Anakin thought that love would make him weak, but it actually made him more powerful than he could have possibly imagined, having more power than the Light and Dark Side of the Force could ever have given him. For the first time in twenty years, Anakin knew courage, having watched Luke display it in the face of certain death. Anakin chose only to live up to his son's high aspirations of him.

 

MeBeJedi:
(very good post, by the way)

If Luke had just walked off after gaining his inner balance (and if Vader did not strike him down), Darth Vader and the Emperor would have still been killed. Did everyone forget what Lando was doing while the duel was going on.

Anakin is able to become a force ghost after he follows Luke's example and finds his inner balance.

Star Wars became the Anakin saga shortly after the SE were done. You seem better at finding things on the web than I am. So, could you do me a favor and find an interview with GL talking about SW being the Anakin story that is dated before the SE were started? Thanks!

I to agree that the Emperor had to die. He was far more evil that Vader. I just think his death did not balance the force. It did hurt though.

Sophita:
"Vader choose to sacrifice himself and kill Palpatine to save his son; Luke didn't convince him of that."

Maybe I am misunderstanding you? Yes, Luke did convince him of that. Luke is the one that saved Anakin, chosen one or not.

JKBurtola:
Don't hurt your head.

I see the point you are making. The problem is that I see thing differant. Even if Anakin is the chosen one. It is his return to the Light Side that brings balance to the force. Palpatine's death is a direct result of "The Return of the Jedi" Anakin Skywalker. As I stated, Lando have things covered as far as killing Palpatine goes.

anakin_girl:
As you have pointed out, Palpatine is the real bad guy of the saga. I just love the Moff in charge of the second Death Star's reaction to the news that the Emperor was coming to see the Battle Station.

 

MeBeJedi:
The post you made while I was typing mine (the one right above my other post) was the best one I have seen you make. Great points. Very well done.

 

"I just love the Moff in charge of the second Death Star's reaction to the news that the Emperor was coming to see the Battle Station."

Vader - "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."

COME ON, FOLKS! That line all by itself speaks volumes about the Emperor.

Thanks, FuzzyRatt.

As you can see, I love and appreciate everything the SW films have to offer. They are very rich in symbolism - both in plot and characterization.

 

Anakin and Vader don't deserve my forgiveness nor does he deserve the galaxy's. As someone stated in a previous
post all he wants and can expect is his own and his son's. He will go down in galactic history as a reviled villian and I agree with that same poster that if he had survived ROTJ he would have been convicted and probably exucuted for his crimes and deservedly so. Because no matter how much you wish it not to be so Anakin and Vader are evil bad people who are completely lacking in compassion or humanity.

I was going to leave this thread alone, but this just made me come back.

Well for one thing Obi-Can, you are not someone he would seek forgiveness from. And the galaxy may not be able to forgive him, but he cannot do anything about that, he can only repent his sins and apologise for the evil acts he has committed.
But Anakin is NOT an evil person, where on earth did you get this rubbish from? Certainly not the films. We've seen so far that Anakin, despite being inherently flawed, is a good person who is only doing what he thinks is best. He was a good kid in TPM, and despite the murder of the Tuskens, he is still a good guy in AOTC.
And to suggest he lacks compassion is ludicrous, look what he did in AOTC & ROTJ! He went to save his mother & later on saved his son, sacrificing himself in the process! If that doesn't show he has any compassion, then I'm a monkey's uncle. And you want humanity? Look at how shaken up he is, when he admits what he did to the Tuskens? He sure showed he had some humanity in him.
It seems you cannot get past the guy we saw in the OT. Because of that to you he is beyond redemption.

The one who lacks humanity and compassion is Palpatine. He is the one who will be the most reviled villains. He didn't care about the galaxy or its inhabitants, he was purely selfish and cared about power. Anakin/Vader is a saint compared to him.

I dpn't condone Anakins actions, because he did do alot of bad stuff there is no hiding from that. But if I were allowed to forgive him, if I were in Luke's shoes, I sure would because Anakin showed he was a good person, despite what he had done, and the fact he repented his sins is good enough for me. Because that is all you can ever ask of a person, especially when they sacrifice their life so that someone else can live.

 

Good stuff, MeBe.

Really, in most films with an part where a bad guy becomes good, he'd then team up with the good guys and track down Mr. Big over the space of twenty minutes or so. Then he'd kill him, and either die heroically or go off with the good guys for a pint or something

So, the ending in ROTJ just saves a lot of time; Anakin regains his Jedi status and offs the bad guy, and dies heroically all in the space of about 5 minutes. Much more efficient

With the PT around, it shows us a lot more about Anakin Skywalker, rather than having to have it crammed all into the end of ROTJ. I'm finding it facinating stuff, Anakin's journey is very interesting to me. It definitely helps to sympathise with him for his final sacrifice, and makes Luke look even more heroic...

 

Because no matter how much you wish it not to be so Anakin and Vader are evil bad people who are completely lacking in compassion or humanity.

That is true which it is not. Then Anakin falling to the dark side is pointless.

 

*loud round of applause for JKBurtola*

WOO-HOO!

With the PT around, it shows us a lot more about Anakin Skywalker, rather than having to have it crammed all into the end of ROTJ. I'm finding it facinating stuff, Anakin's journey is very interesting to me.

Me too, DamonD.

 

"Because no matter how much you wish it not to be so Anakin and Vader are evil bad people who are completely lacking in compassion or humanity."

Sorry, but:
Ani is a good guy.(TPM)
Anakin is a confused teen.(AOTC) {I will add whining teen but, that is another thread}
Darth Vader is evil.(ANH,TESB, & ROTJ)
Anakin Skywalker is good guy.(end of ROTJ)

That is Anakin's jounrey. He was not always evil, he becomes evil. Then Luke saves him.

"The circle is now complete."

 

"Darth Vader is evil.(ANH,TESB, & ROTJ)"

But not completely. Remember, he lets Admiral Piett live at the end of ESB.

Not to mention the fact that he threatens Luke to join him in ESB (since he knows no other way to convince Luke), and then reluctantly gives Luke up in ROTJ. There's change throughout ESB and ROTJ.

Sidious, on the other hand, remains true to his vision throughout the films. Absolute evil.

 

But not completely. Remember, he lets Admiral Piett live at the end of ESB.

Oh Yeah I remember that know

Not to mention the fact that he threatens Luke to join him in ESB (since he knows no other way to convince Luke), and then reluctantly gives Luke up in ROTJ. There's change throughout ESB and ROTJ.Some of that change started in TESB. Kind of like some of his fall started in AOTC.

Sidious, on the other hand, remains true to his vision throughout the films. Absolute evil.

Evil evil and well evil.

 

Crispy_Fried_Dentic

PS: Sophita,
..I happen to be fascinated with Anakin and I have been fascinated with Darth Vader for many years... was something I said...

Oops. Forgive me, I somehow must have mixed up your namse and not caught it. I'd go back to edit it but now the time has expired so I just have to hope an apology will do. ;_; Sorry.

Obi-Can

Anakin and Vader don't deserve my forgiveness nor does he deserve the galaxy's.

We've all made mistakes in life, I think it's pretty damn snobby to say that his mistakes were unforgivable but then be willing to forgive others - for example, Luke killed at the most conservative measure, thousands of people when he blew up the death star, but the audience forgives him for that. Why shouldn't Vader be forgiven as well? I agree it's unrealistic that the universe would forgive him, but I also think there's no reason that he should not have forgiveness.

As someone stated in a previous
post all he wants and can expect is his own and his son's.

I think eventually Leia would have come around as well. She and her father are too alike, IMO, for her to hate him forever. (Even in the EU, she eventually forgives him, I believe.)

will go down in galactic history as a reviled villian and I agree with that same poster that if he had survived ROTJ he would have been convicted and probably exucuted for his crimes and deservedly so.

And if the imperials had won, he would have gone down as a hero. Really all depends on how you look at it. History is decided by the winners. Since the Rebels won (or at least, it looks they have/will in ROTJ) then yes, he probably would have been thought to be a monster. I also don't think he deserves to die, I don't think anyone deserves to die. 0_0 That's a kinda harsh thing to say about someone who isn't even alive.

Because no matter how much you wish it not to be so Anakin and Vader are evil bad people who are completely lacking in compassion or humanity.

HUH? What movie have you been watching?! Certainly not the same ones I have. I guess Anakin risking his life for some people he barely knew in TPM wasn't compassionate, nor is attempting to rescue his mother & master in AOTC or sacrificing himself for his child in ROTJ. As for humanity, well, he certainly does have that - if any character in star wars is human, it's Anakin. He is a flawed, yet inherintly good being, only doing what he thinks is best - he just goes about it the entirely wrong way. 0_0

The failure isn't in me in not being able to forgive, the fact is that he doesn't deserve it.

IMO, anyone who truly repents for his wrongdoings deserves forgiveness. (Being forgived doesn't mean not being punished for their wrongdoings; it means you accept that person, wrongdoings and all.

He had multiple chances and people who love him who showed him the ways of compassion, Padme and Obi-Wan.

As MeBeJedi said, earlier-

The Force created Anakin (no father, remember?) to rise up and stop Sid, but Anakin was duped. He was alienated from everyone else

1) taken from mother - who was later killed,
2) the Jedi Order "holds him back" - and this will be further compounded by his marriage
3) Padme will probably leave him or be killed - she can only put up with so much killing of women and children
4) Palptine greets him with open arms at the lowest point of his life - which is ironic, since Sid manipulated events so that this very thing would happen.

He was even willing for his son to follow in his path and be a Slave to sidious.

He didn't want his son fo follow Sidious...he wanted his son to follow him. Join him, rule the universe, etc. Vader wanted to have Luke help him KILL Palpy.

The fact that he chose his son over Palpy isn't some great miracle, it shows that his old fatal flaw is still his achilles heel -- Attachment.

it's not only his achilles heel, it's also his greatest strength. Anakin's attachm

 

Being forgived doesn't mean not being punished for their wrongdoings; it means you accept that person, wrongdoings and all.

Amen!

IMHO, people who are unwilling to forgive are those who put themselves on a pedestal above the rest of the galaxy--those who think their **** doesn't stink.

No one is above making mistakes, and therefore, no one is beyond forgiveness--everyone deserves to receive it, and everyone should give it when asked.

 

Palpatine is the closest thing to pure evil in Star Wars, he's completely lacking in morals. Even after decades of faithful service from Vader, Palpatine would've happily sold him down the river in favour of Luke.

 

His attachement to Luke in the end causes his death and failure (in becoming all powerful anyway) just as his attachment to his mother did and just as his attachment to Padme will probably lead to his final fall.


Boy, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't...
Seriously, this is a loosing battle... Anakin is the "Chosen One" and like all great heros of myth, he makes some very seious mistakes but comes back to the light in the end....

 

"Boy, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.."

Only because Palpatine manipulated people so it would work out that way. He made himself Anakin's "savior".

 

I don't thats what DarthBreezy was talking about.

 

Actually, it still works, just not in the way Sidious wanted it to. He ends up shooting himself in the foot.

 

JKBurtola is right... When I said that, I was refering to the Ani hating logic that has run so rampent.. my piddly little contribution compared to the great post here (especially MBJ! Great use of logic and reasoning! )

 

"Ani-hating logic"? Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

JKburtola,

I was going to leave this thread alone, but this just made me come back.

I?m so glad I inspire you.

Well for one thing Obi-Can, you are not someone he would seek forgiveness from. And the galaxy may not be able to forgive him, but he cannot do anything about that, he can only repent his sins and apologise for the evil acts he has committed.

We totally agree thus far.

But Anakin is NOT an evil person, where on earth did you get this rubbish from?

Um the Star Wars movies, where George says he has fallen to the dark side, from that point on he?s evil. Somewhere in Episode III I would expect. You do realize that Anakin and Vader are the same person right?

Certainly not the films.

No Really, the Star Wars movies.

We've seen so far that Anakin, despite being inherently flawed, is a good person who is only doing what he thinks is best. He was a good kid in TPM, and despite the murder of the Tuskens, he is still a good guy in AOTC.

I agree for the most part, except for his little massacre thing, I guess you can say that he?s still trying. I would consider him to be more of a troubled and dangerous person than evil at the end of AOTC.

And to suggest he lacks compassion is ludicrous, look what he did in AOTC & ROTJ! He went to save his mother & later on saved his son, sacrificing himself in the process! If that doesn't show he has any compassion, then I'm a monkey's uncle. And you want humanity? Look at how shaken up he is, when he admits what he did to the Tuskens? He sure showed he had some humanity in him.
It seems you cannot get past the guy we saw in the OT. Because of that to you he is beyond redemption.

NO, I get past the OT, I don?t think you can get past the PT. In AOTC, Anakin never shows compassion except for those people he has an attachment to, Padme and his mother. He doesn?t understand or live by the JEdI code which is compassion for ALL beings, even those people who treat you and yours bad, which of course is the true test.

Shows his humanity, if you mean he?s sorry for what he?s done - NO. In that scene he says he?s not sorry and he?d do it again. If you mean by showing his humanity that he?s upset, the question should be why is he upset -- and it?s clearly shown that he?s upset because he?s scared and regrets his failure as a JedI not for any feelings he had for his victims. Many murderers cry and beg forgiveness, it means nothing.

The one who lacks humanity and compassion is Palpatine. He is the one who will be the most reviled villains. He didn't care about the galaxy or its inhabitants, he was purely selfish and cared about power. Anakin/Vader is a saint compared to him.

Well your criteria of sainthood is a little lax. I?ll remind you that Vader was voted Films 3rd evilest villain. I will also remind you that we don?t see Sidious kill anyone, he electrifies them but never kills them. Anakin is the one that orders or carries out Sidious'wishes. This saint of your?s, murders and tortures personally and orders the death of thousands or at the best allows the carnage to continue. He to me is Hitler?s Himmler, the hinchman and enforcer that helped to realize Hitlers sick dream of world domination and the cleansing of the Arian race by using intimidation and murder on Hitler's enemies and even his own officers.

I dpn't condone Anakins actions, because he did do alot of bad stuff there is no hiding from that. But if I were allowed to forgive him, if I were in Luke's shoes, I sure would because Anakin showed he was a good person, despite what he had done, and the fact he repented his sins is good enough for me. Because that is all you can ever ask of a person, especially when they sacrifice their life so that someone else can live.

I thought that?s what I said, Anakin only deserves and asks for his son?s forgiveness (which is granted) and his own.

 

I will also remind you that we don?t see Sidious kill anyone, he electrifies them but never kills them. Anakin is the one that orders or carries out Sidious'wishes.

OH! Well, I'll be damned! There we have it, folks! Anakin is more evil than Sidious!

Where's the "rolls eyes" icon when you need one?

Give me a break. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life.

Many murderers cry and beg forgiveness, it means nothing.

Oh--so the ones who show remorse are just as horrible as the ones who laugh while their victims are being murdered, and laugh when recalling the event? Charles Manson, for example?

I hope if I ever do anything wrong, you're not on the jury. I don't have the power to turn back time, and that seems to be the only thing that would fix things for you.

 

that Vader was voted Films 3rd evilest villain.

Errr no... that's third GREATEST villian...

AFI list

As in favorite...

 

Boy, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't...
Seriously, this is a loosing battle... Anakin is the "Chosen One" and like all great heros of myth, he makes some very seious mistakes but comes back to the light in the end....

Serious mistakes!!!, Well I'm glad you consider his extermination of the Jedi and the Bear Clan(the padawan children), the millions who died on Alderaan and all the other men, women and children that we don't see him kill or order to have killed or watch as it's happening just a mistake.

You seem to have double standards when it comes to Anakin. He is to be forgiven all his "mistakes" because he was once a cute kid, and handsome teenager and because he happened to choose his son over his boss when finally forced to make a choice.

Lets forget the fact that he never tried to stop Sidious before when it was the jedi's and their padawans that needed to be saved,or when he was torturing Leia, or Han, or his own officers(who also had families). No just because he was able to show his own son compassion everything should be forgive and he's truly not evil he just made a few mistakes. Those mistakes were sentient beings who deserved compassion as well.

Unbelievable.

 

"the millions who died on Alderaan"

//raises hand

"Uhm...excuse me?"