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Saga Anakin , Luke and Reys Training - A Force Ghost Prespective

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Much has been discussed in regard to Reys lack of training and "power ups" as compared to the years of training that Anakin and Luke required to become skilled in the Jedi skills.

    Here is my take -

    I think Reys path is directly connected to the Force ghosts.

    Anakin was born as the result of the Force creating a Being that could bring balance to the galaxy. At this time there were no Force Ghosts as Qui Gon had not yet died. Although, in some ways, one might argue that in the end Anakin was able to complete his path, There was also a great deal of suffering and pain that occurred as a direct result of Anakins actions.

    When Qui Gon died his body did not become one with the Force but was left behind to be burned at his funeral. While able to commune with Yoda, he had a less active impact on the physical world .He was able to connect with Yoda but was not able to reach Anakin as he was massacring the Sand People. or to intervene directly.

    Obi Wan was able to transform his physical body into the Force before Vaders blade touched it and he was able to reach luke very quickly, urging him to run. He was able to guide Luke during the rebel attack on the Death Star and might have helped protect Lukes x wing during the trench run. Obi Wan was able to appear to Luke but was not able to interfere during Lukes duel with Vader on Cloud City or to guide Leia to Luke after his duel.

    Yoda was able to not only take his body with him when he became one with the Force but is able to control the weather and other Physical objects.

    Anakin and now Lukes abilities as Force ghosts are not as clearly defined but they do have the benefit of Qui Gon , Obi Wan and Yoda to assist them in their development.

    In my opinion, over time the first four Beings who became Force ghosts Qui Gon, Obi Wan. Yoda and Anakin had to work on their ability to interact with the physical world and learn. over time how to use their new abilities.

    Now lets look at Lukes training. Obi Wan and Yoda were able to take all that they had learned in training Jedi and have a very streamlined set of lesions laid out that took much less time and made use of Lukes own very strong Force potential. Even with this, It was not a guarantee that Luke would defeat Vader and Palpatine and Luke ignored their advice in going to Cloud City and being defeated.

    I think that the four known Force Ghosts, looking back on Anakin and Lukes struggles and not wanting the past to repeat itself , took a much more active role in the birth of Rey, encoding abilities directly into her DNA to be unlocked when certain situations or stimuli were present. We even have Yodas statement that all the wisdom of the Jedi texts are already inside her. To me, this strongly implies direct manipulation on a very deep level.

    Reys path is not Anakins or Lukes. It is not required. Her struggle was not to gain her abilities but to learn her path and be willing to take an active role in unfolding events. Her story is much like Supergirl. Kara arrived on Earth, not as a baby, but a teen girl. She had endured massive loss, as Rey did when her parents left and both were very strong without really needing to work to become strong. Reys story is the fear of change, of leaving her comfort zone, of whether she is worthy to carry the hopes and dreams of the oppressed on her shoulders and in her heart. Can she use her power in a responsible way for the good of others or we she be tempted by darkness? How far will she be willing to go to redeem Kylo? Reys story is compelling and beautiful on its own merits and does not need to conform to what has gone before. I think Rey is able to stand on her own merits.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Rey can do what she's done because she opens herself to the Force and doesn't doubt her abilities. Luke grew up with no knowledge of the Force and had trouble believing in it and its power. Anakin was already ten years into be a Jedi when we see him in action. That's really all the difference between the three of them.
     
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  3. darth-skycrawler

    darth-skycrawler Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2001
    If we had your explanation of the force ghost encoding her with special genes, then at least that is some explanation. We just don't get one in the new trilogy and it is glaring mistake for me. Casual fans of the films have mentioned how it makes no sense to them.

    I wasn't alive when the OT came out, but I saw them when I was very young. Even then I remembered thinking that Luke became too powerful too quickly in ESB. I was around 7/8 and wondered how Luke could be so good compared to people that had decades of experience. I didn't like it as a child and the prequels just drove home the point. I mentioned in another thread, how I can just about buy it, by stretching the story. If I imagine that Han/Leia were together for months on the Falcon and Luke had all the non force fighting stuff removed from his training.

    Still at the very least we see Luke working hard to master the force. We see Luke performing gruelling test and pushing himself to the limit. I think it's important to show that no matter how talented you still need to work. It's commonly repeated saying that this all time great was the 'hardest worker' the 'first to start training and the last to leave.' The other day I was talking with someone who trained Cristiano Ronaldo when he was younger and he was confirmng just how true the statement was. He said Ronaldo worked and pushed himself like no other.

    I feel we would connect with Rey's strength if we saw her struggle and progress. Your explanation might be correct, but I would be happy with just any explanation.

    As subjective as one can be, I don't think Rey's abilities work with the rest of the films. On a personal note I don't like the message Disney are pushing. It's very much "you can be the very best and you don't need an old fart teaching you. There's no need for hard work and no need for a teacher."
     
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  4. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Yoda said that she already has everthing she needs because she literally does. She took the books.
     
  5. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    Luke didn't have years of training. He had a few minutes with Obi-wan and a couple days with Yoda. It was minimal.

    Rey appears more advanced because she has had to survive alone on a hostile desert planet. In TFA, it is clear she knows how to fight and defend herself.
     
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  6. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    To be fair, the amount of time he spends with Yoda isn't entirely clear within TESB itself, and various different sources have had differing claims. I've seen claims ranging from, as you say, a few days, to months or even an entire year
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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  7. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    That's quite an understatement.
    1. Luke an Kenobi knew each other in ANH when they met, we just do not know the extent of their previous encounters but I'm sure that Kenobi got involved in a lot of situations that could qualify as lessons if not training
    2. Luke doesn't want to take Kenobi to Mos Eisley (at first), suggesting it's a long drive. We don't know the landspeeder traveling distance between Anchorhead in the south and Mos Eisley in the north, but it's possible it's a long one with plenty of time for education and/or training
    3. The training aboard the Falcon seemed admittedly short.
    4. Approximately three years passed between ANH and ESB. In the presence of Yoda and Kenobi's spirit Luke claims "But I've learned so much". Apparently he either got Force Ghost training by Obi-Wan or went back to Tatooine to study Kenobi's Jedi scriptures.
    5. As correctly mentioned the time he spent on Dagobah was never really specified. It ultimately depends on the amount of time it took the Falcon to travel from the Anoat to the Bespin System, which I believe to be somewhere between one and three weeks.
     
  8. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    @Seagoat: Months or even a year is really stretching things. The time Luke is with Yoda is the amount of time the Falcon is dodging the Imperials in the asteroid belt and the time spent in Cloud City. That is a few days at most.

    @Lt. Hija: You're assuming some facts not in evidence or contradicted by what is on record. Regardless of any contact Kenobi had with Luke prior to ANH, it is clear there were no lessons about the Force or the Jedi. That is why Kenobi expounds on all of that exposition about what the Force is, who the Jedi were, etc. Regardless, of the distance to Mos Eisley, from their conversation on the Falcon, it is clear that it is the start of Luke's actual training with the saber/using the Force. In terms of Luke's dialogue, any amount of time beyond what he had already spent would get him in hot water with his uncle. In terms of the time jump between ANH and TESB, it is pure speculation that Luke went back to Tatooine to study some documents or that he received Force ghost instruction from Kenobi. In fact, when Kenobi appears on Hoth, there is no reference to "Yoda must continue the instruction I've been providing over the last few years..."

    The simpler and more likely explanation based on what we see in the films is that Luke's instruction from Kenobi and Yoda is more or less what we see on screen.
     
  9. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    It also ties into the time it takes for the Falcon to reach Bespin, which, again, is very unclear in the movie. There used to be a "crappy backup hyperdrive" explanation or something, and some products with longer estimates say they really did have to deal with living on the Falcon for several months, surviving on what the food processor synthesized
     
  10. ralfyman

    ralfyman Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2018
    My sense is that Luke continued his training after ROTJ and probably through the appearance of force ghosts.

    Rey's background is based on what now appears to be a reboot of the franchise in terms of Jediism and training. That is, it's all "vanity" and the Force, a natural phenomenon, can now be used by some without training. Hence, we have a Mary Sue character who appears to be even more powerful than the Chosen One, as well as Broom Boy.
     
  11. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    That's not correct, this one is: Time Falcon stayed hidden in the big asteroid + time it took the Falcon to travel from the Anoat to the Bespin System + the time spent in Cloud City.

    HAN The ship is almost finished.
    Two or Three more things and
    we're in great shape.

    LEIA The sooner the better. Something's
    wrong here. No one has seen or
    knows anything about Threepio.
    He's been gone too long to have
    gotten lost.


    Now, that does sound like "a few days" to me to be added on top.

    This is "on record": "But I've learned so much".

    Interestingly, although Yoda is clearly in 'debunking mode' during the scene, he doesn't deny Luke's claim but instead continues
    "Will he finish what he begins?"
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    And they had no change of clothes for that entire time.

    "Learned so much", is a vague statement. It does not necessarily mean "I've spent so muchg time training myself and practicing how to do things I've never even seen or heard of before." like some people wish it to mean.

    It just means that he cannot ignore his potential, now that he's aware of the force's power.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, Han even indicates a long trip is in store for them.

    HAN: "Bespin. It's pretty far, but I think we can make it."

    This is our indication of a time jump between the Falcon detaching from the Star Destroyer to when Luke has his vision and then the Falcon arriving at Bespin. Also remember that there was supposed to be more training on Dagobah, which was never finished, but was an indicator of time passage.

    They rarely changed clothes in each OT film and the Jedi kept wearing the same outfit throughout each PT film.

    Why not? Luke has a lot to learn about how to be a Jedi and we see how much he had improved from struggling to summon his Lightsaber to the relative ease that he does it later on. Remember that in TESB, Luke has is learning about Force visions and how to levitate objects that are larger and heavier than a simple weapon. As well as understanding what the light and the dark side of the Force is. And we can even see a greater degree of control in ROTJ, compared to TESB. Indicating that Luke did more.
     
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  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    I guess size really does matter!
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Only in that Luke has to accept that size is not an issue, which he has trouble believing.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    I said "not necessarily" and at that time. Not "not". Since then it has come to mean not though. Because we have further examples of the discovery of powers to define the truth more accurately, on not rely on conjecture, notions and supposition.

    You are supposing that Luke must mean something that's consistent with notions of minimum length and nature of training , which is never defined except in terms of not "nothing", like Rey has, which is only defined by the assumption that Luke is alluding to the specifics you suppose he is.

    But when you are faced with actual further examples and that do no support that supposition you forget that it was only a theory and assume it to be a certainty. And instead, you are citing an also supposed 3 year gap to assume that Luke is taking about specific learning that those 3 years, at least, were necessary to have learned them in.

    Yoda's distinction between the force and physical, quantifiable things (size, age, mass etc) should be extended to notions of the material necessity of things like length of training. It ain't necessarily so. Either you will do it or you won't. There is no trying. Length of training is never used to qualify the likelihood of someone being able to demonstrate a specific trick. Yet people continually invoke length of training, i.e. trying to achieve something many times before actually accomplishing it.

    Luke's struggle in the cave is defined by the complete change of tact and state of mind but only after trying, then trying harder, and then a little harder to reach his saber but failing. And it is not an indication of what Luke has learned prior to the cave. He discovers his power of the force grab in this moment only after failing at trying. Because Luke is listening to his instincts, his feelings, he believes that he is not going to die in that cave. That is not his destiny. Therefore he believes that he can summon his saber and free himself before the Wampa gets him.

    It is circumstance and need which reveals Luke's powers. Not time and training. That has to do with being prepared for life as Jedi , one who will be compelled to do battle with his own father and expected not to put any selfish regard for his father's reputation before the need for the galaxy to vanquish the tyranny of the Empire and the Sith.

    The length of training, the lifestyle, is necessary for the kind of community of the faithful Jedi wants to maintain. Not for tricks.

    The issues you are having are that the model that you've volunteered does not support the continued, enhanced story. You're forgetting that it was just a model. It ain't necessarily so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It is only not necessarily so because of a need to do something different in the ST, and not what it was when the PT and the OT were being made. Luke's learning is learning about the Force and what it means to use it, without surrendering to the dark side. As well as learning how to do things so that they all are able to do it as second nature. This is why in TESB and ROTJ, Luke continues to train himself and becomes stronger from where he was to where he is going forward. Likewise in AOTC, it is stated that Anakin's abilities put him ahead of most of the other Jedi students his age, but his arrogance and lackadaisical attitude towards his training were holding him back. That he could improve and become even better, if he continued to work at his Jedi training. Then in ROTS, Anakin had come a long way during the war. Lucas even says that because Luke left, he was not fully trained and thus going in half trained into a dangerous situation.

    So it was always that continued training makes for a stronger Jedi and Sith.
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    You are still making the mistake of being certain about your assumptions based on one example, and refusing to use the further examples to uphold or revise your assumption.

    Only from the perspective of your assumption being correct (for which you have no material proof) does ST do something "different". Like I said. It's like a black swan is just doing something different because you saw a picture of a swan and it was white.

    Which version of ESB and ROTJ shows Luke training himself?

    That's because there is no direct relationship between length of training and abilities. There is a direct relationship between commitment to training and suitability.

    Nobody ever argued that continued Jedi training did not make one a better Jedi. But being able to begin demonstrating ability with the force has always been portrayed as an epiphany. You learn that you can or you don't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I have given examples. I pointed out what was shown in six films and two animated series. What alternatives are there, according to you?

    We see in TESB, that Luke has continued to train before and during his time on Dagobah. Hence being able to lift up his Lightsaber and going from being barely able to do that, to being able to confront Vader. And in ROTJ, we know that there is more of a time jump in which Luke had grown even stronger than before. To the point where he could rescue Han, where Yoda said that he has all that he needs to face Vader and that he was able to construct his own Lightsaber.

    There is a direct relationship. Obi-wan had spent years being trained and only shown that he was ready to be a Knight after his confrontation with Maul. Anakin has trained for far less of a period of time, and already believes he should be a Knight by now. In the case of both, the Council only makes their choice based on however long it takes for the Padawan to reach the level where they're ready to move on.

    This is true with Luke and Rey, but only because they were adults who were being trained with very little knowledge of the Force within them. In Luke's case, he has trouble understanding the degree by which the Force can be used to do many things that would otherwise seem impossible. In Rey's case, she has no trouble believing that she can do anything with the Force. She doesn't struggle to accept it as Luke did.
     
  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    You have not provided any material proof that a specific, minimum amount of formal training is necessary before demonstrating specific force abilities.


    No we don't see that. We don't know how much time has passed. We don't know what has happened in the meantime. We aren't told. (A person hired by Lucasfilm assumed that time was the same as the time between movie releases). We are not told that Luke's discovery in the cave is the culmination of self training without any instruction and would not have been possible without this timescale and what Luke has done on the meantime. That is a completely voluntary theory based on one moment of wondrous discovery (the director's words) and your desire to rationalise it as something else.



    Luke learn's no new force ability on Dagobah except the necessity for calm and how it gives one the ability to see the future, detect the dark side and distinguish it from the good. It is through this awareness that a trained Jedi maintains control necessary for them to fulfil their duties in their role as galactic guardians. It's because Luke rushes to face Vader before this lesson has been learned that he loses control as the heat and the intimate, personal context of their duel (Vader's goading about Obi Wan and the revelation that is to come) and is defeated -but not destroyed (for several very important reasons).

    You're either not reading or just ignoring - That's because there is no direct relationship between length of training and abilities but There is a direct relationship between commitment to training and an individual's suitability to be elevated to the rank of Knight of the Jedi order and the Galactic Republic.


    The ability to use the force, in the specific manner shown in the film, and being bestowed with the rank and authority of a Knight, a public servant are not the same things You cannot truly define what's going on until you acknowledge and account for that.


    [/quote]

    So you are acknowledging that the extraneous circumstances (compared to the traditional life of a Jedi, trained from birth) in Luke and Rey's are the same, hence why the discovery of their abilities is similar in each of their stories. Luke did not become a Jedi until the end of ROTJ where he threw down is lightsaber and elected not the use the force, or anything else for that matter, to destroy his enemy (because he didn't want to lose his father in the process) - A choice which his mentor had assured him would mean victory for the Emperor and the dark side. So arriving at a sufficient level or variety of force abilities had nothing to do with Luke's ascensions to Jedi status. Yoda scoffs when Luke makes that same assumption. The true test of Luke's suitability is how his character copes with the dilemma placed before him. Not how his skills have developed. The Emperor alludes to this himself.

    Luke is incredulous at the supposed irrelevance of quantity. He is disabused of this by Yoda's display of power, a power which Luke should be able to demonstrate. Not because he's spent the requisite amount of time training to lift larger and larger objects. But because all that is required is faith

    Rey experiences a sudden and violent epiphany which defines her naturally strong insight but also terrifies her completely. Despite the myths she's heard about Luke Skywalker and the reassuring and encouraging wisdom from Maz, Rey rejects the idea of having anything to do with force. It is not for her. She's nothing special. In stark contrast to Luke who is supremely confident he should become a Jedi on the same day he heard about the force for the very first time and claims not to be afraid..

    This leads to Rey's capture and almost unwittingly betraying Luke. It's only when Rey is left with no other choice that she has to place her faith in the force that she feels, as narrated by Maz. This awakening, combined with Rey's righteous fury, catches the already compromised Kylo Ren of balance and she comes close to killing him there and then (but this was not his/her destiny, not yet) at least. Following that success, why would you expect Rey to have to struggle to accept the nature of the force flowing through her and its worth as any ally?