Characters Anakin 'n' Tahiri's Place

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Gr8terThanSumOfParts, Feb 17, 2005.

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  1. Tahi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    I still haven't got the book, so can't contribute to the discussion - but I still maintain that Tahiri hasn't been portrayed as Tahiri since the end of the NJO.

    On another note, I've posted my challenge response. It's very late and also very short - but it's done. :) DRL has not been kind lately.

    It's called Drumbeats
  2. YodaKenobi VIP

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    Awesome piece, Tahi =D= Everyone should check it out :D
  3. Tahi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    Thanks, Yoda. :)

    I still haven't managed to make myself read Invincible, so I still can't add any thoughts to the discussion. I have to say though that the Ben-Tahiri angle is a little nauseating. :( The more I hear, the worse it sounds.

  4. G__Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2006
    star 4
    The Ben-Tahiri scene is not nearly as bad as people say it is. Just a couple of Tahiri's actions are weird.

    Also, the redemption is really good!
  5. Kidan TFN EU Staff

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    Actually, I'm not sure I'd agree that the redemption scene is that good. I'd say it's on a par with her entire fall (easy come, easy go--one assumes) but like everything else the motivations which drove these characters in LotF were superficial at best. *shrugs*
  6. G__Anakin Jedi Master

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    Apr 2, 2006
    star 4
    I say it was well done because it shows that Tahiri was never really evil. If you can convince someone easily, they most likely weren't too far gone.

    I also like the motivation. Ben did it because he wanted to. There isn't enough being good because it is part of you for Jedi, rather than it is just a job. Ben's actions show that he is a good person, not that he is trying to be a better Jedi.

    I do have to agree with you on Tahiri's motivation for falling was quite pathetic. Another scene that was great is when she relizes the truth about flow-walking, and about Anakin. I think it really change her a little.


  7. Tahi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, I don't know. I still haven't read the book, so my opinions are based on the previous books of the series. But I felt that the characterisation of Tahiri is poor because there is no development to show WHY she chose to follow Jacen, or WHY all of a sudden she started having unresolved grief issues. The Tahiri at the end of the NJO had come to accept that Anakin's death, although terrible, was necessary. And she appeared to be moving into the future on a secure path. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I expect writers to SHOW me why people act as they do - I like to see what's going on in their heads. And if a good person falls, I expect to see WHY.

    Actually I thought that was what good writers did. [face_thinking] Maybe I'm wrong.
  8. star_writer24 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2006
    star 4
    I think or at least what I am hoping that what I saw in invincible is that they're setting Tahiri up for something in the future. What that is I have no idea, but I am putting a lot of hope and wieght on the following lines:


    Tahiri turned on the glow rod again. Her face was solemn but resolute, "I think's it's time to leave the lies behind," she said. "It's time to leave a lot of things behind."


    Anyway it will be very interesting to see what they do with her in the future, I think if we're honest nobody really got a lot character development in this series outside of Ben and Jacen, I never really felt like what Jaina was doing was very believeable either, or at least how she came around to that. Just my two cents, not worth very much really.
  9. G__Anakin Jedi Master

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    Apr 2, 2006
    star 4
    I thought the same thing about the paragraph! That's one of the reasons I've made my challenge at Beniri about the future!

  10. G__Anakin Jedi Master

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    Apr 2, 2006
    star 4
    I'd be willing to send you excerpts from the book if you want. I already typed 3 scenes up, and saved, for Jedi-Ant. PM me if you want them!:)
  11. The_Samurai Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2006
    I have to agree with Tahi here. I haven't read the book yet either, but I've read all the previous LOTF books and found myself vastly disappointed by her characterisation. While I don't think that the Tahiri we know from the NJO would have done what she did I don't think that that's the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that lack of screen time. They took an entire series to describe exactly how Jacen fell to the dark side, and even then it seemed a little unreal to me. With Tahiri, there was no real signs of change in the early books, when she appeared at all, and then suddenly from Inferno onwards she was a Sith.

    As for the whole Ben/Tahiri angle, again, I haven't read the book but I find the idea pretty disconcerting. I worry that the only reason that they're pushing it is because Tahiri is the only single female main character who isn't related to him.

    Just my thoughts.
  12. Tahi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    Hey there G_Anakin - thanks for the offer, but no need. I have the book and have managed to flog myself to read as far as the end of chapter one. But I'm a bit busy with writing and helping out with the awards at present to read - plus I'm not that enthusiastic anyway. I tend to read the books now just to get enough context to keep up with other people's fanfics. :) And to get the occasional plot bunny for poems, short stories, etc.

    Hi Samurai - it's great to see you here. :) Welcome.

    While I don't think that the Tahiri we know from the NJO would have done what she did I don't think that that's the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that lack of screen time.
    I'm with you there - completely.

    They took an entire series to describe exactly how Jacen fell to the dark side, and even then it seemed a little unreal to me.
    Yeah - me, too. In fact I'd go so far as to say that they really only spent a few books showing his actual decision to take the Sithly path, and I really thought the set-up for it in Betrayal was weak. It was like one minute he was DN mysterious Jacen and the next he was all over Lumiya like a rash. Odd. It was a shame because I actually would have liked to see more of him as he was at the start of the book. I thought he was quite interesting at that point.

    With Tahiri, there was no real signs of change in the early books, when she appeared at all, and then suddenly from Inferno onwards she was a Sith.
    Again - I agree. And when you think back to DN where she was AGAINST Jacen, it doesn't mesh at all. It feels like they had a lottery halfway through the series as to who they could choose to be the next apprentice. And the whole idea of Jacen using Tahiri's unresolved grief negates the last part of the NJO where she dealt with it herself. What unresolved grief I asked myself when I read that line in Inferno? I almost thought it was a typo.

    As for the whole Ben/Tahiri angle, again, I haven't read the book but I find the idea pretty disconcerting. I worry that the only reason that they're pushing it is because Tahiri is the only single female main character who isn't related to him.
    LOL - You may have something there. There are hardly any of the YJKs left - it's all the oldies and Ben now!!

    I have serious issues with Tahiri killing Pellaeon. I simply cannot accept her doing that. Perhaps it's not Tahiri but some kind of Austin Powers type fem-bot? ;)

  13. The_Samurai Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2006
    I agree completely Tahi. I was shocked when I read what Tahiri did in Revelation. Even though I was anticipating it happening, I still couldn't quite believe it. It was just so out of character, and seemed to cement Tahiri's change from the cool character she was to the strange Sith that she suddenly turned into at the whim of Del Rey. As for the Fem-bot idea, I'm not sure, but it definitely doesn't seem like her. Perhaps a clone like in the Thrawn Trilogy. Taahiri? ;)

    But I just think it all comes down to your earlier comments. If you aren't shown how and why a character changes, and if that change isn't believable, then it isn't good writing. And good writing is what we want. I sometimes think that Del Rey have gotten a little too caught up in their 'nobody is safe' style of writing and have lost track of the importance of good writing and good stories. Basically, I'm saying bring back Timothy Zahn. :)
  14. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    I'm actually thinking that Pellaeon - who was even more OOC, and was stuck at 92 (the age he should have been five years earlier going by Leland Chee's dates, or even back in Force Heretic according to the "New Jedi Order Sourcebook") was some kind of clone or Human-Replicant Droid...

    Caedus never met him, remember. He seemed immune to Battle Meditation, too. [face_mischief] And Tahiri gave a comment about how she could see all sorts of things about him in the Force.

    I need to 'fic this... :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
  15. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    what we need is this:
    Pellaeon: Ghola.
    Tahiri in LOTF: Facedancer
    B/R = OTP. (I remember reading a fic of yours with Anakin becoming Ben, so there).
  16. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Where's the real Tahiri? o_O And why is this a Dune crossover? :confused: :eek:

    Not a valid excuse. Last time I checked in canon, Ben wasn't really worthy of anything Anakin-related. [face_shame_on_you]

    [face_plain] :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
  17. brodiew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2005
    star 5
    Anakin Solo= the best of both Luke and Han.

    Ben Skywalker= part Anakin Skywalker, Part Luke Skywalker, Part Leia Skywalker-Organa-Solo.

    Ben is no Anakin, but he is worthy of the Legacy as long as he's not left to angsty guilt-ridden rogue.
  18. Tahi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    I'm actually thinking that Pellaeon - who was even more OOC, and was stuck at 92 (the age he should have been five years earlier going by Leland Chee's dates, or even back in Force Heretic according to the "New Jedi Order Sourcebook") was some kind of clone or Human-Replicant Droid...
    Good point about the inconsistency with the age there, Thrawn. You're a veritable mine of info. :) That clone idea is very tempting . . . you must write a fic about that. Hee hee Would it be Pellaeaeon or Peellaeon?

    I don't like what they've done with the Ben character. At times he's been almost amoral. Where are the old-fashioned epic, heroic characters that won me over to Star Wars in the first place? It's all grey and ambiguous now - something, which if I wanted, I could get from other sci-fi series. I've always seen Star Wars as upholding "good" ethical values, but now it's all just dirty politics. :( I think goodness died with Anakin, personally, and the really annoying thing is that it need not have. There was the potential there at the end of the NJO to use the remaining Jedi in a heroic way.

    brodiew
    Anakin Solo= the best of both Luke and Han.
    So true. :) And I agree with your point about Ben's potential. If they can move him on and keep that goodness directing him . . . things could improve. But some of his choices in the early LotF books were horrific.

    Samurai
    Perhaps a clone like in the Thrawn Trilogy. Taahiri?
    LOL - now there's a plot bunny. ;)

    I agree about Tim Zahn. [face_love] Also true the "nobody is safe" directive has gone crazy.
  19. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    I'm not convinced. I don't think Ben has any idea of right and wrong. He's hungry for one; he needs one - it's in his blood, and in his eyes: but Luke, and the Jedi Order, and the Galactic Alliance, haven't taught him one.

    And he still doesn't know what to be; he's becoming a Jedi by default, because he (or perhaps the creative team) can't think of anything more to do with his life...

    Pellaaeeon, I think. :p

    But that was the clone, though. I think he really was shot in Betrayal, so his personal staff - led by Vitor Reige, who'd been behind the clone's activation and may have kept the real Pellaeon's loss a secret since Force Heretic: Remnant - activated a HRD, which continued to lead the Empire, with their input, for most of "Legacy of the Force"...

    I think some of the characters involved can be quite roguish - Han exemplifies that, as do your own "Black Knights" in Many Happy Returns: but they know right from wrong, and when they have the chance to prove their heroism, they take it. Jacen, in contrast, is outwardly upright, but his thinking is so twisted that he's become amoral.

    I agree that something's been lost, and that brings me onto something I've been wanting to talk about: the subject of Anakin Solo and recent canon.

    I'm starting to think that we've actually been really lucky. We've avoided the appearance of a mischaracterized individual named "Anakin Solo" in the later books. Look at how Ben's been handled, with his lack of moral insight, and Jaina/Jag with all the delays and angst, and Luke with his muddled ideology, and... well, everyone, including Han and Leia (never allowed to stand up and fix the mess since Betrayal) and Jacen (discarded), and the Jedi Council (reduced to cyphers), and "Tahiri" (*shudder*).

    I liked the cameo in Inferno, but comparison with what's happened to the other characters makes me question whether Anakin would have been written consistently or well if he'd appeared prominently in the later novels. There seems to be a search for "drama" to drive the characters through, in a way that disregards their existing characterization, and strips them of their problem-solving skills - and their capacity for heroism.

    I guess the real lesson in this is that Anakin represents the Star Wars virtues - continuity, problem-solving, heroism, Solo luck; there'd be no point in bringing him back in canon without a return to the STAR WARS he represents. With that in mind, I'd gladly take a Keyes novel starring him (or a Stackpole one, for example, or even ones by some recent authors)...

    ... but, takin the series as a whole, would we have wanted "Legacy of the Force" to happen to Anakin? :eek:

    Now we just have to rescue Tahiri, too... :D

    Wait. That's a plotbunny! :eek: :oops: [face_laugh]

    - The Imperial Ewok
  20. Tahi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 5
    guess the real lesson in this is that Anakin represents the Star Wars virtues - continuity, problem-solving, heroism, Solo luck; there'd be no point in bringing him back in canon without a return to the STAR WARS he represents.
    Absolutely on the button, there Thrawn. I have the granddaughter about to arrive and reduce my house to bedlam - but I will reply in detail as soon as I can. Some great points there.

    And I'd like to endorse the message in you sig to read Lonewolf's Red Sky. :)
  21. Klimt_Of_Tornesdal Force Ghost

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    Dec 8, 1999
    star 3
    Tell me about it! :p

  22. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Let me know when you have time? :D

    I agree, obviously! :p That was yesterday, though. Today's .sig is for Kidan's Jedi Adept: A Path In The Dark. :D

    What I'm trying to do is write a review for an A/T 'fic every day. You can find the links here, but I guess I should post them here, as well.... :D

    The firt one, incidentally, was Tahi's own "Drumbeats".

    "Red Sky"

    "A Path In The Dark"

    Interesting! :eek:

    *adds to his reading-list... and his reviewing list* [face_dancing]

    A/T FTW!! :cool: [face_love]

    - The Imperial Ewok
  23. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Inspired by the previous post. :p

    Today's A/T 'fic review is Klimt_of_Tornesdal's "Legacy of Love"!

    Another one should follow tomorrow!

    :cool:

    - The Imperial Ewok
  24. Klimt_Of_Tornesdal Force Ghost

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    Dec 8, 1999
    star 3
    Hey Thrawn.

    Much obliged, and honoured, for the mention, thanks. Hope y'all continue to enjoy what I have in mind.
  25. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    No time for a proper review today, so I'm going to give a link to a 'fic I can't legitimately review, but which I hope you'll enjoy:

    "Dark Legacy" by ImperialSolo! ;)

    - The Imperial Ewok
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