Anakin/Obi Wan Duel: Spectacle Over Emotion...?

This whole thread is going to depend entirely on your subjective responses to the movie, of course, but I feel this is a worthy topic...

Now, before you jump the gun and think that I'm dismissing or denigrating the duel, hear me out. I've cheekily obfuscated my point with some sly wording for the subject title. But I had to draw you in with something. The wording kind of applies...

I was watching the officially released clips for the upcoming "Within A Minute" DVD documentary and I was reminded of my reaction at the cinema to this pivotal event: in the allotted footage, the visual content seems just as - if not significantly more important - than the emotional content. Put another way, Lucas' visual choices, which seem highly symbolic to me, dominate the guttural content of the duel itself. While I was expecting a violent and passionate clash of lightsabres every step of the way, Lucas seems to have deliberately eschewed that in favour of emphasising the sheer wrongness of two "brothers" duelling. Think about it. Unlike what I and many others were thinking, both men wield BLUE lightsabres (a first in Star Wars history!) - Lucas is telling us, as another poster on this board pointed out, that's what's happening should never have come to pass. But here it is. However, I feel the symbolism and thematic power goes well beyond that...

There's a sense of MADNESS to the whole thing; it's "boys with toys" gone awry; it's two men fighting because only fighting will do; it's a clash of philosophies fuelled by testosterone; it's male stubbornness at the expense of all else. This really hit home for me in that footage chosen for the documentary. Anakin and Obi Wan lock sabres across a bridge section, and seeing a huge wave of lava rising up, make a dash to safety. As they reach a bulkhead, and with full knowledge that they should really halt a moment for their own safety, they manage to get another quick swipe off! Then the lava crashes down. A large section of the bridge is melted down and much lava is flung off. At this point, both men - as the situation requires more than once - finally STOP fighting and face away to survive the intense splash back. I never thought Lucas would make the landscape such a pivotal part of the duel. There, right there, is Lucas defying expectations and adding another layer to this rich tale: the duel itself is almost superfluous; it's Anakin and Obi Wan's crazed "they've started so they'll finish" mentality that gets emphasised time and again. As the remaining piece of bridge tips over and begins its perilous vertical slide into the lava, Anakin and Obi Wan crazily resume their pursuit whilst desperately clinging to the side! Can there be a more powerful visual expression of their relentlessness than that? The landscape completely dwarfs these two men and continually threatens - precisely because of their own folly - to eat them up at any moment. As the scene cuts back to a long distance shot, a viewer can no longer tell who from who. All one sees are two blue protrusions of light; at this impersonal viewing distance, the two men are equals: equally determined and equally crazy. The emotional content of a fallen Jedi facing his former friend is completely stamped on by, well... the magnitude of their insanity. It's taken a while to sick in but that's a really cool thing that Lucas went and did. It's Bridge On The River Kwai meets Titanic. And it works.

 

In my opinion the dual is ok as it is, but Lucas and Rick and all the others promised alot more then we got. They said the dual would last 10 minutes, it`s not even 5. And its realy just 2 minutes or so witch are lightsaber fighting.

There is such a big middle part of the Dual with wery litle combat, and finaly at the end when Anakin jumped on the hower craft with Obi-Wan the fightin should have realy bean at its hight, but its only 8 seconds and then thats over.





Sorry for anny spelling mistakes

 

cryogenic, i bow to your shrine. very good analysis.
i think people too often reduce the fight to good against evil, and your writing has just given it this wonderful brother against brother dimension which i should hope more people latch onto.

i think by this point they are really both stuck in their propaganda and i find it so amazin gthat people suggest anakin let's it go while at the same time assuming obi-wan could easily have avoided the fight. they are stuck in agendas.

 

darth_frared, thank you!

I, too, was a little underwhelmed by the lack of interpersonal conflict between Anakin and Obi Wan. Not a complete lack, of course, but what I clearly felt was less than it should have been. But then these video clips from "Within A Minute" re-awakened ideas that I'd briefly caught glimpses of in my head at the cinema: perhaps Lucas consciously shifted away from the emotional dynamic to create an epic sense of desperation, of dread, of sheer waste and lunacy. Just look at the conditions that Anakin and Obi Wan are fighting under. All of the other duels in the saga, while certainly not without their messier aspects, seem ritualised and polite by comparison. But all bets are now off. Caution, codes, ethics and civility have all been thrown to the wind. Obi Wan begins the fight by declaring that he will "do what I must" - a pained inversion of Qui Gon's jovial use of the same phrase and the grimmest start to a duel there has ever been. Never before have we seen opponents duelling each other with the SAME colour lightsabre, either; it's blue on blue, brother on brother. Lastly, and what I argued most passionately for in my opening post, the landscape itself - as harsh and lethal a place to duel in imaginable - continually flares up and intervenes to shape the conflict unfolding. This is two men who shouldn't be doing what it is they are doing.

I see little point in Anakin and Obi Wan clashing all that much after their exchange of dialogue and Obi Wan's grim realisation, "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you". For all intents and purposes, the two men have reached an impasse: philosophically, emotionally, spiritually, physically. The only way the duel can end is for one of them to do something rash. And we all know which of the two is pre-destined to and ends up doing exactly that...

I can't say I was entirely charitable or open to all these things when I first watched it - but I feel it will play better when I watch it again. Roll on DVD!

 

That's not exactly accurate Asharak; the Kenobi-Skywalker duel runs over 6 minutes, with just about 6 minutes of actual dueling. There's hardly a break anywhere, besides a few reactions to the environment and a brief section of lava platform floating toward the end.

 

Dude, I have the dual on my computer. I have timed it.

 

I see little point in Anakin and Obi Wan clashing all that much after their exchange of dialogue and Obi Wan's grim realisation, "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you". For all intents and purposes, the two men have reached an impasse: philosophically, emotionally, spiritually, physically. The only way the duel can end is for one of them to do something rash. And we all know which of the two is pre-destined to and ends up doing exactly that...

awesome!
i have thought so for a long time.
they both end it, i think. in a way i always thought that calling it immolation points to a sacrifice. i mean, it should, shouldn't it?

obi-wan pretty much knows that anakin won't let it go when he says 'don't do it'. i think that's obvious. and anakin cannot let it go and just go home and leave the fight...

i think his jump is done out of despair if nothing else. just like obi-wan is despairing.

ah, great.

 

What's the runtime then?

 

The fight from when Anakin lights his saber to when he jumps and gets cut down is 11:18. They are fighting while Yoda/Sidious are going at it so GL did not cheat us on a ten minute fight...we just didn't see it all because of how he intercut the two.

 

Lordvicious, I'm sad to say, but that's incorrect, when Anakin gets his legs cut off is 11 minutes, 46 seconds into it(since technically when Anakin said "You will try," is when they all started).

 

I second that

yes, it seems we have a clear division between the people who love Obi-Wan and the people who love Anakin. I'm not rooting for either of them specifically in the duel.

I hate to sound redundant, but this duel always reminds me of the statement "the Jedi and the Sith are similar in almost every way".

Obi-Wan was almost as much of a slave to the Jedi as Anakin becomes to Sidious.

 

I have it on mine as well. The entire run time from when Obi Wan says let her go to Obi Wan walking away is 14:52. Yoda vs. Sidious takes up 4:15 of that time. I count the first lightsaber ignition as when they start fighting...we are splitting hairs though. The entire fight scene runs over ten minutes, but the actual Anakin/Obi sequence is on screen for about 7.

 

I see that perfectly fine.

May I ask the point of this?

By my calculations, the Yoda vs. Sids takes up 5:10 of the time.

The saber ignition = start of duel is point of concept, which I disgress to you right there. Splitting hairs indeed. True. Anakin/Obi sequence I agree on, unless you're counting the Immolation scene, which extends it.

 

...both men wield BLUE lightsabres (a first in Star Wars history!) - Lucas is telling us, as another poster on this board pointed out, that's what's happening should never have come to pass.

Great call. I completely agree! I love the blue-on-blue: it de-emphasizes the "good vs. evil" perspective - it's more like "good vs. good", which as you say, is something that should be impossible, something inherently wrong. But at the same time, it seems like by the time Anakin and Obiwan duel, it's the only option left - they've been driven to an impossible impass and each feels it is crucial that he defeats the other.

The rest of your post is great too! You're right: the landscape seems overdone at first, but the fact that Obiwan and Anakin, despite the imminent danger it places them in, cannot see past their duel an recognize it. During the moments when they were forced to pause in their fighting by the lava sprays, collapsing equipment, etc I wanted them to realize they should stop fighting and help each other get the hell outta there - wishful thinking I know, but it seemed like they should recognize the common danger they shared....maybe that's another symbol - Obiwan and Anakin in their hearts are on the same side - they both want what's "right" but don't agree on what right really is. And that blinds them to the common ground they share, just as the duel blinds them to the imminent dangers of Mustafar.

Awesome post Cryogenic!

 

What?! No emotion? Obi-Wan's "You were the chosen one. It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!" has to be the most emotional scene in all Star Wars. And their convo before the dual with Anakin's "Liar!!" "You will not take her from me!" "Don't make me kill you!", no emotion in that? Hmmmmm....what to you is emotion?

ADD ON: Does someone have to break down and sob uncontrollably to constitute emotion? Just listen and look at Obi/Ewan's face when he gives that end speech in their dual. IMO plenty of emotion there. He's coming really close to losing it there.

 

i think the duel was greatly done but sidious/yoda duel was a lot better and thats why all the critics.

 

the emotion is there, to be sure.
i think obi-wan's speech is just after the duel and i personally believe he releases all the feeling that he couldn't let out before.

i think it's an awfully sorry thing that he only *somewhat* deals with it after the duel is over. why not tell anakin beforehand. did he honestly think anakin would just leave and let it be?
that's crazy as well.
i do root for anakin here, that's a personal thing, but i appreciate that these two people should never have fought this duel. it's just not meant to happen.
and i gues the direction gives very good hints to the madness they both exert and the craziness of the whole situation.

 

I thought this thread was about spectacle over emotion. I don't think we are comparing the Yoda/Sids dual with the Ani/Obi dual are we? Or whether one was better than the other? The question is or seems to be is there more spectacle than emotion in the final (Obi/Ani) dual. Yes, there is a lot of spectacle, (heck it's a damn lava planet!). I was just pointing out that there is also plenty of emotion, just not the breaking down kind of emotion. Just look at Obi-Wans reaction as he is leaving on the ship from Mustafar with C3PO next to him in that cockpit. He is totally heartbroken at what he had to do. Emotion there, too, no need for words. Wonderfully directed and acted by Ewan there. Need more emotion examples?

 

the duel of anakin and obiwan resonates with me more than that of yoda/emp - but both are terrific and make use of the environment as a third party. cyrogenic did a wonderful analysis of mustafar's participation - and sid/emp tossing the seating around as projectiles made the best use of that environment. great thread. it's now been 34 days since my last conf...since i last saw RotS.... i will be first in line on halloween.

 

How about Obi-Wan's sadness when he says "I have failed you Anakin." Or the look he gives Ani/Vader when Ani/Vader says "This is the end for you my master." Or Obi-Wans's "Then you are lost!" Plenty of emotion for me. What were you expecting, Ani/Vader or Obi-Wan to lose it all? They are/were Jedi after all.

 

good point. yes, they were jedi. or at least obi-wan was.
i don't think the thread was to say there was specifically no emotion. just that it gets dwarfed by the madness both exert. just this.
and the madness is expressed, for me, ion having obi-wan say all this and anakin saying his lines and still continuiing to fight in this kind of environment.

 

Agree with that, too, Darthfrared. I think there was a good balance of environmental chaos/danger and emotion. IMO not a lack of either of them. George needed the wow factor in the environment and needed to show the insanity of two friends battling to the death with each other. Good blend of sp. effects AND emotion. I was just pointing out some the the emotion side that seemed to have been forgotten.

 

Thanks for the various comments and reinforcements, guys!

BRILLIANT analysis. I only considered Anakin as being the one who does something rash, but as your analysis shows, the both of them did.

That is all emotional content, yes! However, these moments occur immediately before and after the duel; in essence, they are the prologue and epilogue. The duel itself practically consists of nothing but physical hardship and perilous struggle. Incidentally, Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor do their finest work here. Lucas also does some of his finest writing and directing in these parts. ILM are also on fine form. And John Williams hits every emotional mark we expected him to and a thousand we'd never have guessed. Really, it's cinematic perfection.

I have one new observation to throw into the mix...

When the wave of lava rises up on the aforementioned DVD documentary clip, notice how Anakin and Obi Wan lock sabres, and rather than showing any visible exertion or frustration at each other, they both hold position and STOP TO WATCH THE LAVA. Nowhere else in Star Wars, despite how treacherous some of the surroundings are, do we witness two lightsabre combatants do this. It's totally unique. Nature has this ability to dwarf human affairs and the folly of men. Just read the opening chapter to E.M. Forster's "A Passage To India" where he talks about the landscape of India and the overarching quality of the sky (incidentally, an absolutely amazing piece of prose). The novel is a powerful study of racism but everything is filtered through the setting: the Indians and the English box themselves off from each other but there's this sense that nature unifies and resolves all; it was here before them, it dictates what is and isn't possible and there's a sense it will outlast them all. Now consider a film I referenced in my opening post. As "Bridge On The River Kwai" ends, the final word of dialogue is "madness". The camera then pulls back in an unbroken shot to show the indifferent scale of nature.

Alright, I lied! Here's a second observation...

Another pivotal revelation is the way the landscape shapes Anakin's destiny. When Anakin is defeated, it is the first and only time that the environment is responsible for scarring a duelist. Maul and Sidious might have fallen down gaping pits but no Force-user in Star Wars is ever injured by the landscape EXCEPT for Anakin. It's equally his tormentor (physical pain) and saving grace (it's through being set on fire that Obi Wan thinks he's dead and inadvertently leaves him alive for later redemption). Out of the ashes, Sidious will make his blackened phoenix rise again. That phoenix will one day destroy him and bring balance to the Force - to that metaphysical entity of nature.

 

I agree. I loved the BLUE vs. BLUE. However, I think it would have been amazing if at a point somwhere in the battle, Anakin somehow loses his lightsaber and suddenly takes out Dooku's. I think that would have symbolized the moment when Anakin TRULY turns to the darkside, and nobody, not even Obi-wan, will change him. That also would have shown Obi-wan that there was no saving Anakin/Vader and the only thing to do was to kill him.

 

Dooku's curved-hilt lightsabre was unique to him. Anakin discarded that sabre every bit as freely as he discarded Dooku's life aboard The Invisible Hand. The Separatist movement was over at that point; Dooku had been killed, and his vision, as represented by The Invisible Hand itself (look up the meaning), broke apart and came crashing to the ground. Visually and thematically, it would have been totally incongruous to have Anakin wielding his lightsabre. Darth Vader - "Dark Lord of the Sith" - was only born once Anakin had been immolated on the lava bank and mechanised on that operating table (though, even then, his true birth only occured after his breakdown over Padme's death).

I think that blue-on-blue works perfectly from start to finish. In addition to the above rationale for keeping with blue sabres, Obi Wan is still wrestling with his soul over whether Anakin can be saved or not. Only at the point when he screams, "Then you are lost!", does he seem to acknowledge that the Anakin Skywalker he knew is no more. Even then, however, he is still clinging to his feelings and tries to give Anakin a way out (a way out he knows he won't take) by telling him the duel is "over" and not to attempt a jump. Obi Wan's compassion only evaporates into the acrid Mustafarian air when he talks of loving Anakin in the past tense and leaves him to burn to death, picking up his blue lightsabre, former weapon of a former Jedi, as he goes. It's a shocking moment - but Lucas carried it all off with amazing taste and precision. Blue-on-blue it was and blue-on-blue it had to be.