Anakin over throwing The Emperor

who's to say the rule of two wouldnt of changed if Luke had turned to the dark side? I've not read any EU stuff from that period yet, but from what I understand the rule of two was introduced for two reasons:

1/. Stop the infighting between Sith

and

2/. It's alot easier for two people to lay low than an entire army, whilst they wait for the chance to take their revenge.

 

Thing is, what was Sidious going to do with Vader after he killed Luke, like he was trying to do at the end of ROTJ with the Sith lightning?

Go after Leia probably, keeping Vader on hand during the meantime. Failing that, probably nothing.

 

No, because Luke would've killed Vader. That is the nature of the Sith. They can only exist in two and get things done.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith Lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

--Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60

Darth Bane: "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

Too many Sith at a time lead to infighting. This has always been true of the Sith. Internal power struggles caused massive infighting. This infighting lead to the Jedi helping to wipe them out at Ruusan. Bane saw this was the case and went at it alone. But he couldn't live forever, so he took on an Apprentice. It was always thus that there would be two. This way, the Sith Order would survive and so it did. For one thousand and twenty four years, until an unforseen incident destroyed them.

 

^^ Yup

 

How can it be misinterpreted??? There was no way that Anakin can destroy the Sith if he wasn't trained as a Jedi.

 

Sinister is right. The Sith Rule of Two isn't just a traditional rule forced on the Sith. It evolved as the best way to retain Sith stability over the years where there were presumably many Sith at one time, much like the Jedi. Eventually, the Sith were widdled to two and it more or less natually stayed like that.

 

well, but you see, if they could have the rule of two evolve, why can't they evolve a rule of one who is immortal? i see no harm in changing that.

 

But he destroyed the Sith as a Sith Lord. He may have died as a good man, but he wiped out the Sith as a Sith Lord. The prophecy never said when, where or how it would be done. Just that he would do it. Anakin was a Sith Lord at the time he killed Palpatine. What changed was that he had to sacrifice himself to kill Palpatine, thus bringing balance. Lucas said so at the end of the Chosen One commentary. He brings balance by destroying the Emperor and himself. Anakin could've fought Sidious and they both kill each other, thus wiping out the Sith and bringing an end to everything.

Palpatine couldn't live forever. Until he could, there can only be two Sith at a time. The only thing Palpatine said was that there is a power to cheat death. That doesn't quite make you immortal. Just means that you can will a person to live. Qui-gon told Yoda that a Sith can never become immortal. Not the way that they want to. The way to immortality is to become a Jedi or a Shaman of the Whills and die like they would. Without any attachments. Without any sense of self. And merge with the Force, taking on a corporeal or an incorporeal form. What Palpatine did in the eu wasn't true immortality, because he needed a host body to survive. Master Brand let Palpatine enter his dying body, thus allowing his spirit form to take him to the Netherworld, where the spirits of the other Jedi, including Anakin, were waiting for him. They bound him to the Netherworld, thus preventing him from entering another Force user.

 

He could fairly easily in that say he was a pilot and destroyed the ship Sidious was on or say the Empire is established and a Jedi is lured onto the second Death Star and Anakin is an old grizzled war vet who takes the Wedge Antilles/Lando role and destroys the station however with the Emperor still on it.

It would be more difficult and far less dramatic but there's more than one way to kill a Sith.

Because Palpatine couldn't gain immortality. The Sith could possibly keep others from dying but not themselves. The only Force Users who gained immortality were the Jedi via the Force Ghost. Ironic, considering that the Jedi had far less of an interest in it.

 

Because Palpatine couldn't gain immortality. The Sith could possibly keep others from dying but not themselves.

well, i sure think that while palps hadn't figured it out by the end of ROTS, that he *believed* he could do it. i'm not saying he knew the trick already, just that he hoped for it.

The only Force Users who gained immortality were the Jedi via the Force Ghost. Ironic, considering that the Jedi had far less of an interest in it.

it's a different kind of immortality, though, a transcendent one. i talk about physical immortality with the sith.

 

Well, the reason why I asked was the whole "Vader turned out to not be want Sidious wanted, and then along comes Luke" thing that GL says these days.
What you and I said above on the matter tends to chuck GL's view out the window.......

Though I like the idea of Luke being the "Powerful Force-user red-herring" for both the Jedi - Obi-Wan/Yoda - AND the Sith (Vader/Sidious).



- TOSCHISTATION

 

Sidious has always been really lucky in that aspect. He is probably the most powerful Sith lord to ever live, as all three of his known apprentices were unable (or would not even entertain the notion of) to overthrow him.

I get the sense that his relationship with Vader was somewhat unnatural in the history of the Sith. An apprentice who simply COULD NOT overthrow his master isn't the way it was supposed to be.

And, I do not believe that Palpatine WANTED to die at Anakin's hands, but he was aware that it had to eventually happen. His legacy would be the complete annihalation of the Jedi Order, and training the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Things just didn't work out that way.

I have always wondered how seriously the Emperor still considered himself a Sith after ROTS. He had no intention of letting Vader overthrow him (that Suit was pretty damn vulnerable to Force Lightning), and he knew he could keep Luke whipped if he had to.

I think once he realized Vader was too weak to overthrow him he settled in for the long haul.

 

I'm still of the school of thought that Sidious knew that mentioning the ability to conquer death is the way to get Anakin to start to join you hook, line, and sinker. However if Darth Plageus had the ability than I agree with you that he hoped to achieve it in time.

 

Curious. Why would that be a red-herring? From your point of view. Any offspring of a Jedi/Sith will almost undoubtedly be just as strong as the parent. This is made clear in TPM, when Qui-gon asked who was Anakin's father. Up to this point, he's thinking that a Jedi went out and fathered a kid. Not uncommon, since the Jedi don't forbid that. Just getting married. Anakin turns out to not have a father, according to Shmi. Thus making him very unique. Since the Force runs strongly in the Skywalker bloodline, the offspring will have a Midichlorian count over 20,000. And since both twins are equal, that means they are both capable of doing what their father could've done had he not been injured.

Are you refering to red hering in the sense that both sides didn't believe Luke was that powerful or are you refering to a more subtle plotline. This being that Luke will wind up being the redemption factor, rather than being the executor of the Sith.

 

Sinister, I think that is a bit of a stretch. In ordinary genetics no trait is inherited with absolute certainty, there's just a higher probability of the offspring having that trait. Meaning that while a child having a high midichlorian count points to the fact that the parent also had it, but the reverse is not necessarily true. The father may bequest his gifts onto the child, but this is not certain and if it happens, it need not happen to a 100 percent degree. Furthermore, Luke and Leia are not identical, but dizygotic twins.
I know that ordinary genetics doesn't necessarily translate to Star Wars midichlorian issues, but it points to the possibility of different midi-counts from one another as well as from Anakin.

 

I think the fact that Luke can pretty handily defeat Vader, who is 80% of the strength of the Emperor, meaning that Luke is probably 85-90% of the strength of the Emperor with pretty spotty training and very little experience, speaks to the fact that Luke is AT LEAST as strong as Anakin, if not significantly more.

If you take the EU as a source (which I don't like to) then Luke pretty much becomes and unstoppable Jedi monster killing machine. He probably does have more potential than Anakin.

But, there are those who are fond of thinking "Chosen One = Most Powerful." I don't personally agree. Luke seemed extremely impressive, considering he was able to defeat Vader pretty easily.

 

The prophecy never said that Anakin had to be a Sith to fulfill the prophecy nor did he have to die to do it. Also, Anakin was no longer a Sith when he killed PalpSidious because Sith Lords don't give up their lives for anyone so that means that Anakin became a Jedi again so I still say Anakin can fulfill the prophecy without becoming a Sith nor dying in the process.

It wouldn't work that way because Sidious doesn't underestimate his enemies so carelessly like Tarkin did which resulted in the destruction of the 1st Death Star. Sidious would've abandoned ship long before anyone, especially Anakin ever thought about blowing up whichever ship Sidious is on which is why the only way to kill him is by face-to-face combat.

 

yeah well, i don't necessarily think otherwise. it's probably a hoax with anakin. i think that palps thinks plageuis knew how to do it, however, never told him and what's needed is a really powerful sith, uhm, jedi: anakin. hence he lures him with the story because the story fits but i do think there is some logic to him wanting to live forever. and not the jedi way of forever, the sith way of physical immortality. however, there isn't much evidence to back this up.

so, yeah.

 

Normal genetics, yes. I know all about that. But in the case of Midichlorians and the Jedi/Sith, it is passed on full bore from whoever has the highest count to their offspring. The eu has show a few cases where this is not true. But in the realm of what Lucas wants, it seems that at least 90% of the time or more, that a Jedi has a child they'll be strong in the Force as well. And true, Luke and Leia are not identical, but dizygotic. However, the one thing that is identical in them is their force power. That's why Lucas made it clear that it could've been either Luke or Leia that went after the Sith. When he moved the idea of the other being related to Luke, but before he settled on it being Leia, he realized that the other had to be just as good as Luke. Thus keeping with the idea that the other was kept in reserve in case something happened to Luke. An ace in the hole. Once he settled on it being Leia, he moved towards the idea that either one could've done it, but circumstances dictated that it was Luke and not Leia who faced the challenges. In the ROTS novelization, Yoda says that they will wait for the children to come to them. To let the Force bring them together. In ANH, Luke is brought to Obi-wan and thus is why he begins the training. Otherwise it could've just as easily have been Leia. Or that they would be both taken off to be trained. One would go with Obi-wan and the other to Yoda. Thus keeping with the Jedi Code that says only one Master/Knight can train one Padawan.

It never said that he had to be a Jedi or that he had to die either. It just said that there would come a person who is strong enough in the Force and that person will destroy the Sith, thereby bringing balance to the Force. That's the tricky thing about prophecies. They're difficult to translate properly. There's always a catch.

Anakin wasn't either a Jedi or a Sith. He was just the Chosen One. A feat that happens because he was a Sith Lord who unintentionally exploited the rule of two, which Darth Bane created to save the Sith Order. And there's no mistaking that Lucas says that he wipes out the Sith, which includes Palpatine and Vader.

 

Thank you, I didn't know about that - curious: where did you find that, and is there any more information on the midichlorian inheritage issue anywhere?

 

No, he never did have to be a Sith Lord, however because he had become a Sith, he needed to destroy Vader either through death or through redemption. It ends up that Anakin destroys Vader via both however. The Prophecy couldn't be completed via a Sith who was still on the Dark Side but it could be done by a Sith who had returned to the Light and renounced their title.

Considering the arrogance that he felt later in life and that he died because his right hand man thew him into a reactor shaft, I'd say it's definitely possible.

Oh yeah, there's definitely logic to it.

 

I find a certain appeal to the idea because it gives so much more importance to Luke's mission in ESB and ROTJ. Palps was very old by then, he would have died in a few years if things had proceeded the natural way. And it would have be much easier for Luke to just wait until Palpatine has died and then go to face Vader alone. But what if Palpatine was actually scheming to become physically immortal, as suggested in Shadow of the Empire? It gives so much more importance to Luke's mission and so much more dramatic sense to the idea that Luke and Leia are the last hope indeed.

 

Well one can always assume that a Sith, especially Sidious, would want immortality. I mean, why would he *not* want it? However, as you said, there was no evidence of him ever trying to achieve this goal. perhaps he thought about it, but as far as I am concerned, and the rest of the Star Wars audience, he never tried.

 

i think it's implicit. but i have nothing to back it up. it'd make such a nice case of megalomania

 

It's mostly just coming from the films. Lucas says that Luke could be what Anakin was and by extention, so could Leia. In the story itself, it seems obvious that Luke could be very powerful. Palpatine feared that he could destroy him and Vader went back to his old idea of overthrowing Sidious, with the help of Luke. Add in Qui-gon's comments and what Luke said to Leia about the Force and who it runs strong through.

Luke: "The Force runs strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. And...my sister has it."

Luke never mentions his mother and we see nothing of it coming from the mother. Just the father. In regular human genetics, the mother will pass on quite a bit to the child. Just as the father does. I think I even recall that the mother would pass on more of certain types of genetic traits. I could be wrong. I'm no expert, but I recall reading that in previous debates about the Midichlorians.

The prophecy doesn't say that two Sith Lords, one of them being the Chosen One himself, couldn't kill each other and thus bring balance either. It wouldn't have to be an act of redemption, just the mere act of wiping out the Sith as a result of Sith vs Sith action. The redemption happens because Luke pushes Vader into doing it.