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Anakin, Padme, Luke, and Leia - The Separation of the Skywalker Family

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by DarthVegas, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. DarthVegas

    DarthVegas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    Episode III is going to be complex indeed.

    Not only do we have the Clone Wars along with this supposed "Jedi Purge", but George has the dubious task of explaining why the remaining Skywalkers of the PT and OT don't know about each other.

    Here's some things to consider before speculating.

    Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader)

    - Anakin does not know about Leia
    "So you have a twin sister!"

    - Anakin may not know about Luke.
    It is possible Anakin knew he had a son, but figured him for gone or felt it best if he never knew him. I find this highly unlikely though. Wouldn't he have gone after his son a long time ago? Did he feel the need to abondon him? Vader was very accepting of the fact when he realized a young pilot named Luke Skywalker destroyed the Empire's ultimate weapon. Did he know he had a son, or did he figure 'who the hell else could do that but a Jedi as badass as I am?'

    It is also possible he did know he had a son, but figured him for dead. I believe this too to be unlikely.

    Or he might not have known about him all.

    The Question: Why didn't Anakin have no knowledge that Padme was pregnant?

    1) She either hid the fact from Anakin as he made his descent into darkness.

    2) Anakin left Padme before she told him, and when she had the kids, the entire Jedi Council and his 'friend' Obi-Wan decided not to inform him.

    This is going to have to be an instrumental piece of Episode III. The times are going to have to be extremely intense for these actions of familial seperation to take place. What was Anakin doing? Was he on a killing spree? Had he visibly become Darth Vader? Was he presumed dead before his kids were born?

    I believe that is the likely answer. Anakin had fully become Darth Vader, hence left for dead somewhere in a pool of lava (or whatever is going to happen to him).

    Once Darth Vader emerged, only a select handful would know who he really was (Obi-Wan, Mace etc.) They knew a Sith Lord wouldn't make a good father, so they hid the kids from him, and from Padme as well. Then they seperated them and well... you know the rest.

    What do you think the story may be since this is likely to be instrumental in the Ep III story?
     
  2. Randi_Kenobi

    Randi_Kenobi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 9, 2002
    the thing about leia gets me though. He may not know about her, and he did say 'so you have a twin sister!'. but i dont know if it was so much knew information to him as it was to Luke. Remember, kenobi told luke about his sister in the beginning of ROTJ. And how would vader had just found out? did someone tell him? i dunno, but im not saying anything final, cuz im not lucas. :p
     
  3. DarthVegas

    DarthVegas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    He knew Luke had a sister after he 'read' Luke during their final battle.

    The question remains as to how all of this was hidden from him? His kids must've been born after Anakin became Darth Vader, or else the Jedi would have no reason of hiding them from him.

    But also, he must've never known Padme was pregnant, which is odd because one would think Padme is not the secretive type in their relationship. So he must've left her for awhile, on a long mission maybe, or something else.

    I'm curious as to how Lucas will handle this.
     
  4. dehrian

    dehrian Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    Anakin may have known about the twin prior to that scene in ROTJ.

    Taken in context, all Vader was trying to do there was provoke Luke, to get an emotional reaction from him. He said what he needed to say to get Luke to flip out and reveal himself. That doesn't mean that what he was saying was true. You shouldn't take it as gospel.

    If the PT has taught us anything, it's that dialogue in the OT is bendable.
     
  5. DarthVegas

    DarthVegas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    So then dehrian, you're saying Anakin knew about both twins and just didn't care if they galavanted across the galaxy?

    I know dialogue is bendable, but that sounds like a Mr. Stretcho doll! (you know those unbreakable man dolls... anyway) :p

    I would just think he would've gone after Luke a long time ago or at least have a mandatory long term search mission going. I would especially think Palpatine to be interested in such a mission as well.
     
  6. BoboliFett

    BoboliFett Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2002
    The thing I wonder about is why didnt Obiwan and padme tell Anikin he had children in hopes that he wouldcome back from the dark side if he knew this?

    This may imlpy that Vader was some how forced into becoming a Sith.

    Or that Vader felt like such a freak after he was totally disfigured that he felt he could'nt live a normal life.


    Anikin being disfigured and a monster is the only real reason I can see for him turning to the dark side.
     
  7. Sith__Happens

    Sith__Happens Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Just throwing this out there for fun...

    Perhaps Obi-Wan and Padme have an affair. That would set Anakin off!

    Not true, of course...
     
  8. Movealong

    Movealong Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2001
    I imagine Anakin fighting in the war, leaving his wife Padme at home, not knowing he is leaving her pregnant. I think EIII has some information in its opening crawl like:

    After a long and bloody war, the Republic is about to gain control in the war-torn galaxy. The Republic forces have driven the remaining troops of the Confederacy to their last stronghold.

    Anakin Skywalker is one of the few Jedi who survived the war. Whilst preparing for the last battle, Anakin does not know his wife is pregnant and that she is about to give birth to twins.

    Led by the evil Count Dooku, the Confederacy of Independent Systems awaits its last hour.



    Vast sea of stars - camera pans down to a Republic armada approaching the planet ????

    Then goes the Saving Private Ryan battle - suggested by Darth Vegas - reminiscent of the battle of Hoth with the Republic clonetroopers finally overpowering the troops of the Confederacy by their sheer number although the loss is high. Count Dooku again flees. And Anakin driven by a thirst for revenge after the final events of AOTC and watching the galaxy been torn apart by some former Jedi Master who had turned to become a Sith Lord goes in for the hunt (again a reminiscence to his chase for Luke in ESB - let´s face it, he´s always after someone or something: dreams, Padme, Dooku, Death Star plans, Luke, Luke turning to the Dark Side so they can restore order to the galaxy as father and son). Obi Wan fails as a master who joins Anakin in his quest to finally redeem the galaxy of the curse of the Sith and restore balance to the force. The chase leads them to Palpatine on the height of his power...
    and both finally realize the dimensions of the Sith scheme.

    At the same time Luke and Leia are born.

    Yeah, just speculating around, wondering how it all will turn out. These are gonna be some damn long three years. But the wait is the real fun, isn´t it?
     
  9. DarthSon

    DarthSon Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2000
    One way for him not to know is for him to believe Padme is dead....who better than to tell him such news as Palpatine during Anakin's rebuilding? He's extremely vunerable, has trust in Palpatine so he is inclined to believe him, and it breaks the one human tie Anakin has.....he would feel there would be nothing left to turn to other than Palpatine. Just a thought.
     
  10. Tiershon_Fett

    Tiershon_Fett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2000
    I think the last night Padme ever sees Anakin, is when she gets pregnant. Maybe she hasn't seen him for a while, because he's off fighting, and knows he's slipping, but when she sees him, she's overcome with emotion. I see it as a very bittersweet parting.
     
  11. Tiershon_Fett

    Tiershon_Fett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2000
    I think the last night Padme ever sees Anakin, is when she gets pregnant. Maybe she hasn't seen him for a while, because he's off fighting, and knows he's slipping, but when she sees him, she's overcome with emotion. I see it as a very bittersweet parting.
     
  12. dehrian

    dehrian Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    Vegas, you're not thinking it through.

    Vader may have known that Padme gave birth but thought them all to have died. He may have known that she gave birth, but found the twins hidden from him; he didn't know who or where they were until Luke popped up.

    There are plenty of possibilities. You just have to look past the obvious.
     
  13. jediart

    jediart Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2001
    Anakin does know about Luke some how.
    BEN:Your father wanted you to have this when
    you were old enough.

     
  14. tgmb

    tgmb Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I've always thought the comment of Anakin's death and Vader's creation were a figure of speech, not a real thing that happens. Obi Wan is playing fast and loose with the truth in ep3, and admits that in ep6.

    Anakin/Vader had to know where Luke. They put Luke with his step-uncle and aunt under the name Skywalker, on Anakin's home world. In addition, one of the two last Jedi's are also located on the same planet, and he's Anakin's surrogate "father" and Luke's surrogate "grandfather", and we know Vader and Palps can track down Jedi using the force. Luke wasn't hidden, he was there in plain view because...

    They were hiding Leia. Anakin didn't know Padme had twins. Even Obi Wan didn't; he had to be told by Yoda in the scene where Luke left Dagobah that there was another hope. By having Luke in the open, Anakin/Vader had no reason to look for anyone else.

    Taking a more "sentimental" approach, I think the Palps also knew, and he used that as one way to hold Vader - get out of line, and Palps kills Luke. Also, train Luke and Palps kills him. I think Vader had plans to take over with Luke (as we heard in ep 5 when he admitted he was Luke's dad), but wouldn't act for fear of getting Luke killed. He was was pretty happy to see him force active in ep3 since now he could try to get Luke over to his side.

    I don't really understand why Obi Wan waited so long to train Luke - he only started training Luke when fate forced him to. And we know that older kids don't train well as Jedi's - they need to start indoctrination when they're young. There's nothing to indicate what the plan was to train Leia, if ever. Maybe they were going to try to break out of the old mold and train a good older person in the use of the force, one that had a real family upbringing rather than a Jedi one, to see if that could change things....
     
  15. dehrian

    dehrian Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    jediart, Ben isn't the best source of information, if you hadn't noticed. Just because he said that, doesn't mean it was true.
     
  16. DarthVegas

    DarthVegas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    I see what you're saying dehrian,

    According to your theory then, somewhere in Ep III and beyond, the Jedi decide that Anakin must never know of their children. Of course the Jedi would be relentless and go on with it, but what about Padme?

    Why would Padme go along with faking her death? If Anakin thought her dead, and she thought him dead, why would she then decide to split the children? Does Padme die? Or does she take comfort in Bail Organa's arms? Wouldn't she want to keep the children as her only connection to Anakin, even if Luke was a Jedi, wouldn't she be adamant about not letting him go no matter what the Jedi say?

    I think Padme would have to know what happened to Anakin. I always thought it would be good if Padme realized he became Darth Vader, but if your theory presents itself, she couldn't know. Because to me, Padme would do what she could to bring Vader back to Anakin the way Luke did.

    Ep III is going to be a twisted puzzle indeed. It's going to have to take all of this into account and somehow make it work in accordance with the OT.
     
  17. John of the collective

    John of the collective Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 1998
    You are all completely forgetting what Obi-Wan says in Return.
    The Emperor knew as I did that if Anakin were to have any Offspring, they would be a Threat to him. That is why your sister remains safely anonymous

    Anakin and the Emperor have no clue about Luke or Leia until the OT (there is a discussion about this going on their too.)

    The Way I see it, Anakin has no clue that he is going to be a Father. Likely he assumes Padme Dies for some reason. Remember also the Leia has memories of her real mother and Luke says it that way impling
    1: that Leia had an Adoptive Mother probably Mrs. Organa.
    2: Perhaps Leia spent more time with Padme then Luke Did.


    My take is that
    For whatever reason Anakin never learns of Padme's pregnancy.

     
  18. DarthVegas

    DarthVegas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    True enough John.

    ROTJ was the only time Ben seemed to be telling the truth.

    Since the EMporer boasts at how good he is at forseeing things, he could have possibly already have known about Luke and Leia.

    To me, if Vader had known this as well, he would've had the Skywalker hunt already in motion.
     
  19. Malz4JESUS

    Malz4JESUS Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2002
    And Luke and Leia must have been born or have been to Dagobah before, because in ESB, Luke says,
    "This place gives me the creeps.
    Still...there's something familiar about this place..."
    He remembers it from somewhere.
    I don't know...just though I'd give my two cents...


    -Princess Moose Helene
     
  20. gallandro777

    gallandro777 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2002
    Why would Anakin have to know Padme was pregnant at all?

    His decent into the darkside could have happened before they were born, at the time of their birth and the months preceeding, he might already be seperated from Padme

    MOST LIKELY PADME DIDNT WANT HIM TO KNOW ANYWAY!!
     
  21. tgmb

    tgmb Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I'll say it again...both Anakin and Palps could have known about Luke, and they would have had to have been stupid NOT to have known it for the reasons I listed in my post earlier on (unless the bizzare combination of factors that should have lit up the fact that Luke was sitting there on Tatooine was just a continuity issue given that it's from the first movie made).

    Everyone wants to concoct a theory that somehow Anakin "dies" or Padme "dies" so there can be this secret. That may be the case, but we've thrashed that about for all it's worth.

    Why not consider that Palps knew, and used it as a hold on Vader? Why not have Vader know, be held in check by Palps' threat, and still have conflicted feelings of wanting to turn Luke to his side, yet not wanting to see his son killed?

    Leia would then be the secret one, which opens up a lot of speculation on how that could be, and what were the real plans for the twins. Maybe they were going to be trained, maybe they were going to be prevented from being trained. Any long-term plans got shot out the window when the droids landed and got Luke involved.

    Anyone have a comment? And if your comment is just a word or two to tell me "no", keep it to yourself. I'm interested in conversation as to why this makes sense or not, not just simple judgements on it...
     
  22. John of the collective

    John of the collective Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 1998
    Your logic ignores Obi-wan's dialog which is not speculation. The EMperor Knew as I did that if Anakin were to have any offspring.
    Obi-wan makes it clear that as far as he knows Anakina nd Palpatine never knew.

    I suppose they could know and Obiwan is just a crazy old fool, but Yoda was still alive and helping with this plan, I would think Yoda would know if they were aware of Luke or not.
     
  23. tgmb

    tgmb Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I don't ignore Obi Wan's statement, I just take it as part of the bigger texture of things. Obi Wan was misleading on a number of things in ANH and the circumstantial facts that Luke was named skywalker, living with his step-relatives, on his dad's home planet, with Obi Wan living down the road as a potential flare in the force for Vader/Palps as overriding that. Also, Obi Wan might assume that Luke would be eliminated if he was known to be there, but did not understand Palps use of Luke to hold Vader, nor Vader's feelings toward Luke. Obi Wan missed alot about Anakin/Vader feelings earlier, and would have a big chip on his shoulder after Anakin turns fully away from him that would only let him to think the worst about Anakin...

    And about Yoda, whether he knows what Vader or Palps knows is a question. I don't think Yoda ever said something to indicate that....
     
  24. DarthVegas

    DarthVegas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    And make Obi-Wan look so bad! That would leave Obi-Wan truly to be a bumbling old bitter fool and I'd hate to have to watch him for an entire trilogy like that.

    :D
     
  25. tgmb

    tgmb Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Darth Vegas, just curious, but I don't understand why what I'm suggesting makes Obi Wan look bad or like a bumbling old fool. Because I suggest that his statements might not be truth? It's pretty clear given any interpretation that he effectively lied during ANH when he was telling Luke about the past. Or because I suggest that Vader and Palps know? That doesn't relfect badly on him, since his purpose on Tatooine was not to hide Luke himself....
     
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