PT Anakin Padme Romance makes sense now, finally!

Well, since we're having this conversation...

All the leads are attractive, but Natalie makes me dizzy.

And Hayden is almost too handsome for his own good.

 

Oh man, this reminds of something I did once out of boredom. I ran Hayden's face through anaface (which basically measures attractiveness through facial symmetry):



He scored really, really well. Apparently his ears are a bit too long for his nose according to the program's guidelines. But there you have it. A very symmetrical face. Although, in the end, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and can't be objectively quantified.

 

Very nice, PH!!!

And this:

"I ran Hayden's face through anaface"

 

But...that's kind of my point. This 'romance' isn't a love story...this is 'damn, he hot.' and...I don't know why but I kind of lose interest in a character who puts aside mass murder on that basis (male or female)

And...I get your point Cryogenic but...if a character's whole existence in the story is about another character then they are, as I said, simply an addendum of that character.

But I have only slightly caricatured her. Anakin is actually remarkably aggressive toward her in this scene...and you use the term "trying to exert power"...and that is exactly what Anakin's outburst is. Padmé in ROTS, in the face of that, just crumbles. She has become limp, spineless. A nothing personality, her every thought and action based upon the whim of 'her man'.

Now...that may very well be what Lucas as aiming for...buit that's my point. In terms of story-telling this is a million miles away from the OT...because characters don't develop - the story isn't told through the growth of the characters as a seemingly organic (naturalistic) narrative, but characters are, instead, simply cyphers for idea(l)s/concepts the author wishes to portray.

I don't buy the 'romance' because it is only a concept 'romance' (and is actually only attraction) that leads to the concept 'marriage' (which here is defined as 'attachment'). It is a narrative through means of shallowly developed concepts, lacking the hand of a story-teller.

 

Alright. I won't really argue that one.

Or perhaps I will.

Padme is mostly in the shade of Anakin in ROTS.

But she still has independent desires, goals, and instincts.

She reprimands Anakin for suggesting they go public with their marriage after a time apart with Anakin returning from battle.

She looks forward, in a happier moment, to raising their baby together on Naboo. She teases him about his love for her in the same instant.

She consoles Anakin as his loving wife and recommends they go to Obi-Wan for help. She later sees Obi-Wan at her apartment.

She presses Anakin to consider whether the Republic is morally right when Anakin stews about the waning righteousness of the Jedi. When he snaps at her, she urges him not to shut her out, and then, finally, appeals to Anakin's gentler instincts to simply hold her; seeking comfort but also reminding him that she is not his enemy.

She attends the special session of Congress to bear witness to Palpatine's oration and the birth of the Empire; passing a great comment as she sits with Bail, a huge opponent of the war, and founder of the Rebel Alliance.

She refuses to believe Obi-Wan's revelations and goes to Mustafar herself to face down Anakin and discover the truth.

She specifically tells Anakin, when she learns he's chasing power for its own sake, that he's going down a path he can't follow and backs away; yet she also urges him to "come back" and go with her before all chance is lost.

She remains alive long enough to give birth to the twins and tells a shattered Obi-Wan she senses that there's still good in Anakin; thus setting up Luke's deep, unyielding faith in Anakin when Vader discloses the truth; thus opening the door to his redemption.

* * *

Of course, some of these things -- or all of them -- do place her in a secondary capacity to Anakin himself, but Padme does remain true to her basic ideals, right to the end. Her character is expressed in a different register in ROTS. Padme's energies have shifted.

But she is not just an appendage of Anakin or a footnote in his life. The film makes plain that she has willingly taken on the roles of wife and mother. And, true to Padme's character, she really inhabits those roles, attempting to bring grace and dignity to her own life, to Anakin's, and to the secret union they've entered into.

That really is Padme in a nutshell, in my opinion. Other people may scold her for it, but if you dig her character, you see that she sacralizes these roles, without losing her patience, her sensitivity, her forbearance. She is the melding of sensuality and reason in the last days of the dying Republic -- the vital blend of life-sustaining traits which the Empire ignominiously lacks.

I like this character and this story and the grand arc that Lucas brought to fruition.

 

I honestly believe most people, for whatever reason, continually misinterpret Padme's character. She was clearly shown to be someone who constantly made the wrong decisions and she, like everyone else in the PT, paid for it. In AOTC, when Padme and Anakin are leaving for Naboo together, Captain Typho has the following exchange with Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan:
"I do hope he doesn't try anything foolish."

Captain Typho:
"I'd be more concerned about her doing something...than him."

Perhaps it was a reference to Padme taking matters into her own hands regarding the investigation of her assassination attempt, but considering how she interacts with Anakin as time goes on, I feel it means she wasn't someone who practiced good judgment in all facets of her life.

As for her death, besides the annoying OT retcon, I didn't have a problem with it as Padme was presented as the symbol for the Republic and democracy throughout the PT. As the Republic died, so did she, and as the Empire was born, so was Vader. It was quite symbolic by Lucas. However, I would've liked for her death to have been directly caused by Anakin as opposed to the "she has lost the will to live" bit, but whatever.

 

I have a fresher take on this after watching AOTC last night. My wife thinks Padme was into Anakin more then he was into her. I asked her if Anakin was behaving like wormy stalker type of guy and she said no. To me Padme comes off like Anakin makes her uncomfortable, but my wife says she is uncomfortable because she doesnt want Anakin to know how she feels about him. I never really saw it that way. The little boy on Tatooine line was an emotional defense to subliminally tell Anakin there was no chance for him to get close to her, even though she wanted to be close to him.

 

I wouldn't say she has poor decision making. I think more so she is in a situation of isolation during AOTC, and there is a man (Anakin) clearly infatuated with her. She finds solace in him during the most stressful time of her life. The quote you presented, if anything, just shows they are both incredibly foolhardy in ways. They're both very dysfunctional people that grew up without their families, in a very governmental program. Though, Padme's decision making in relationships may be flawed, we know that she is very intelligent, who joined Apprentice Legislators at the age of 8! Plus her fighting for no war during AOTC and ROTS was very logical. She was very impartial and rational when decision-making for her work. If anybody was a well-rounded decision maker, it's Anakin. Having his allegiance with the Jedi Council crumble because of Palpatine's manipulation...

 

reading this was like hearing poetry. I wish everyone could understand this.

 

I just want to see this make the rounds again.

 

I here site the fan theory that Palaptine used her life force to power Lord Vader post his immolation. No matter where you stand of the viability of that theory, it makes for a more interesting death. Also, the 'lost the will to live' is only a conjecture by the droid who says it because it can come up with no physical reason for her to be dying.

 

Thank you, steelneena.

I do what I can, when I can.

Just a fan of lifelong fan of George's quixotic saga.

 

Very well said.

The actual meaning of the "will to live" from a droid has been gone over many times but the emphasis on the mythological and metaphorical aspects that Lucas places all throughout the visual storytelling of Star Wars (particularly the prequels) is not given anywhere near enough attention.

Again many fans look at the support dialogue as the core and the visual in the reverse of what Lucas is outright telling them to and has said of his movies for decades.

 

"Losing the will to live" as a criticism is funny to me. When George Lucas said you're watching a "Space Opera", did people not understand that the term "opera" was there? Or maybe they don't know what that means? Seriously, that death with its rich symbolism and mythology is literally the most operatic thing in Star Wars. More so even than the romance in AOTC, which I also thought was about as operatic as it comes. I mean, at certain points if Anakin and Padme broke out in song, I probably wouldn't have blinked.

 

Huh....I can actually agree with this.....

 

Well duh.
We two are obviously a perfect couple XD
Admin: I love how their relationship grows. First they don't seem to have a romantic future together, BOOM second movie kiss kiss fall in love~ I love it
Padmé: course ya do

 

“thejeditraitor: padme didn't fall in love with anakin just to fix him but she ignored the signs that he was troubled. hell, he admitted he slaughtered a tribe of sandpeople. at that point she should have run for her life but she didn't.”

Oh, please. When people condemn his killing of the sandpeople (and by people, I’m including Jedi, too), I think they do this more for Anakin’s benefit, and the subsequent fall to the darkness it could bring, than any actual sense of loss for the sandpeople. The sandpeople as a whole were maggots and desert parasites, stealing at best and killing at worst. Murdering them was not much more significant than if I poured gasoline on a hill of fire ants (yes, the women and children too), and lit it on fire. It’s not like they were innocent bystanders or upstanding citizens that had anything positive to contribute.


“I agree with you! I think there's a sense of balance between them at the beginning of ROTS however precarious it proved.”

Their relationship by itself was fine. External forces (Palpatine working behind the scenes, the Jedi Counsel’s rules, will of the Force etc.) made it literally impossible for them to be together. If they had been allowed to function as a normal everyday couple would--each going to their jobs and co-habitating on Naboo—I think they would have worked.


“I don't know that it makes for a good story to tell, having a main character like Padme be the equivalent of these pathetic and disturbing women who marry psychopaths. I mean, do not want……..If this was the story, maybe it was better left to backstory in George's notebook and not actually made into a trilogy of movies.”

But what would you have preferred to happen for the conception of Luke and Leia? Some kind of rape by Vader? We knew that Darth Vader was their father, he was redeemed, and it naturally follows that they need a mom (some backstory for that comment of Luke’s in ROTJ “Do you have any memories of your mother?.....I never knew her” was also nice). I think it built a much more complex Vader character to have things characterized the way they are.


“Padme, an exceptionally intelligent, accomplished and powerful woman, falls in love with Anakin the exact same way women "fall in love" with psychopaths like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. I did a quick search, and I found "hybristophilia", also known as Bonnie and Clyde Syndrome.”

It’s an interesting theory, but I think attributing their love and attractive to hybristophilia, or Stockholms Syndrome, or whatever just doesn’t quite describe it. They had a bond that was forged early on (TPM), and as others have mentioned both lived insular, lonely, career driven lives. Add this to the fact that they are both attractive—his hormones are about on a par with hers at this age—and it almost would have been surprising if something didn’t happen.


“That's notable. He's not sucking up to her the whole time (though he's not shy at complimenting or reassuring her, either), and actually seems to have little problem expressing a range of emotional attitudes and sensibilities around the girl he likes.”

I actually never looked at it that way. I think in the relationship they each respected the other one because they held their own and didn’t just suck up/blindly agree with the other on every ideological thing. And also:

You'll always be that little boy I knew on Tatooine = Friend zoned

I bet that took the wind right out of his sails.

 

The children are innocent until proven guilty.

 

I completely never noticed that Padme might have fallen for him in the garage scene. As soon as he reveals the extent of his brokenness she is hooked. That's really rather... sick (which is to say I like it).

Although that is after they were on Naboo when Padme already seemed to be hinting at secret feelings for him and all their scenes on Naboo were like they were dating (and I did think Padme was denying that to herself)... But it just was all too fast. I personally need time to fall for someone. Like you can't show up at my flat and guard me as a I sleep and spend three days with me... And all of a sudden I'm in love. Especially not the kind of love where I can say "I truly, deeply, love you."

I had understood the romance from Anakin's point of view, but not from Padme's, and I'd thought she wasn't a very well executed character. But, having a pathological need to save, heal, fix broken people, so on... that's actually really interesting. And it is similar to Anakin who has his own pathological savior complex based around how powerful he is.

Even though this was hinted at in the cut scene where Padme talks about the alien children she'd tried to help who all died because they couldn't live off their homeworld was there, I still didn't put this together. And I really think that the movie didn't show it well enough. I needed more from the characters to emotionally connect and it was constantly falling flat; every scene seemed cliche and contrived.

 

I find this entire veiwpoint absolutely morally repugnant. The Sand People, Cliegg Lars's comments notwithstanding, are clearly thinking, feeling, sapient beings capable of social organization and forming familial bonds. They are people. Men, women, and children. No matter what they did, even the men, none of them deserved to be summarily and brutally slaughtered without charge or trial.

I feel like you've missed the entire point of Star Wars, a series which asks us to find the humanity in even the most seemingly hateful and villainous of people, and have compassion for them despite the evil they've done.

e:

Well, personally, I can't see how you could have missed it. Padme's entire character can be boiled down to her wanting to help people and erase others' pain. I agree that that scene where she talks about the alien children was a tough one to lose, but even without it I think Padme's motivations shine through clearly in Natalie Portman's performance, in the way she clearly pities Anakin and laments that the cheerful little boy she once knew is now a sullen young man wracked with so much emotional turmoil and pain.

 

I did think Padme's spirit seemed to have waned a bit by RotS. Part of it is that there has been an awful galaxy-wide war going on for years. She is also emotionally tied to Anakin and he's been getting darker. Their relationship has been changing, and Padme might be in denial about this. When she tells Anakin she's pregnant she's fearful about what his reaction might be (actually fearful which is to say I think that on an instinctive level she already senses danger and it's been going on for a while). The moment on the balcony Anakin is looking at her a bit like she is a possession, though she is in a brighter mood then, probably trying to lighten him up. He probably comes back so dark every time she sees him (she would know it's the war, but that is of course not all it is). Whenever they talk for the most part it's like they're not really talking to each other. Anakin is distant and Padme is trying to convince herself he's not. Unlike in AotC in which Anakin is seeking feelings from Padme trying to get closer to her, in RotS it's Padme who is trying to bring Anakin closer because she's been losing him for a while. And maybe she can tell herself that if the war would just end, they can be like they used to be together.

In short events have been taking their toll on Padme, but so has Anakin. The darkness would seep into you when he's around.

 

Oh God, are we *really* turning this into that old thread about justifying Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens? That has been discussed to death, life, then death and undeath again. All I'll say here is, "And what legal system does Tatooine have? The planet's basically a giant wasteland where it's killed-or-be-killed/the strongest endures and the weak perish. If anything else, Anakin acted like one would expect someone from Tatooine to act. Jedi-like? Of course not, A Tatooian? Yep.

"

 

It's the pathology of it; of getting hooked in the garage scene I didn't notice. From my pov in that scene Padme seemed to not actually get the extent of his darkness. Someone just confesses he slaughtered a bunch of "people" (*he* considers them close enough to people even though he says they are like animals; that's why he is in so much pain about what he's done). And the only response we really ever see from Padme is saying, "To be angry is to be human." I thought she probably soon wiped the incident from her mind as much as possible; just as she didn't want to see later that their relationship is falling apart and something is very wrong with Anakin. Denial, in other words, is something I've always seen as a large part of Padme's character (I clung to it because that was something that made me see her as having a little bit of complexity as a character, though still not enough to make the character interesting to me).

For this moment to be the fulcrum on which Padme's romantic feelings are determined is more sick than I'd expect of Padme. I know that Padme's entire life is one of service and helping people (though generally she's doing it on a large scale not a small one). I didn't notice that she would be actually fascinated by Anakin's darkness; I thought she was being blind to it. And she doesn't generally seem fascinated with it in any other scene. I didn't really buy the romance from Padme's end basically--it seemed so much more plot driven than character driven (which was my major complaint about the PT; that so many of the characters seem to lack complexity because they are plot devices).

But I suppose it's not the darkness she's fascinated with but the brokenness. It's just that I didn't really see enough to make me see her as someone who works to fix individuals. Mainly because she's always doing good on a larger scale (politically).

ETA: Also re: "To be angry is to be human" I just felt that she wasn't giving proper acknowledgement to what he's done. She doesn't know what the Sand People are, sure, but she doesn't need to because Anakin himself knows he has done something terrible (he wouldn't feel that way if these were meaningless monsters only). Her response doesn't acknowledge back to him "Yes you have done something terrible." Instead it's like she's downplaying it (not just the act, but *especially* how he feels about it). If I was confessing what Anakin did, I'd be trying to convey the horror of it because my very "soul" is on the line, and her response would just make me feel like I'm alone with my horror. No one can help me with my soul. Except maybe my friend Palpatine, the only one who will ever really see inside me.

ETA2: Re: her denial. I thought that was a major part of why she later died. Everything was too horrible for her; it broke the bubble she lives in and she couldn't face the horror. Which once again supports not being able to see or face Anakin's darkness. Once she is forced to see only horror and darkness, it destroys her. Denial had protected her from this. Until it ran out and events made it impossible to keep.

ETA3: That said I think that Padme's denial is part of the reason her presence is so soothing, calm and peaceful for Anakin to be around. It calms him down. But calming down won't fix/resolve this. It won't make the psychological damage it's done go away. I think that the sort of peaceful bubble Padme exists in (she represents Peace really, and how fragile it can be) ties Anakin to the Light (I think it delays his descent a bit); but she's just one person and it's too small and fragile to hold him next to everything else.

(I apologize for all the edits. They went on way longer than usual, were numerous, and my post isn't as organized/concise as it could be.)

 

Once again you are seeing a totally different movie from myself.

Someone being sick and tired of war and wanting comfort is hardly "weakness".

People can be vulnerable. Saying Padme has zero character in ROTS is simply not true. Believing in someone that you love is not weak and when you find out that they really did something wrong and trying to save them is not weak.

Weakness in the character of Padme as we know her would be if she didn't confront Anakin and tell him he's on a path he cannot follow.