Anakin really suceeded where Luke failed

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Old_Zen, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
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    Yep! You heard me right! No typo there. ANAKIN suceeded where his son, LUKE did not in the area of anger and the lust to kill the hated enemy. When Anakin has his lightsaber to Palpatine's neck and Palpatine urges Anakin to go along with his base feelings and destroy him....Anakin resists and puts away his lightsaber, commenting how he is going to turn him over to the Jedi council which is the right thing to do.

    While Luke in ROTJ, gives into his anger and hatred of Palpatine, and force pulls his lightsaber to his hand and strikes at Palpatine....only to be blocked by his father's blade.

    Could this be a metaphore to how Anakin-Vader was always able to focus his anger and so stops his son from giving into anger?

    Even in the Dooku duel at the start of ROTS, Anakin does not seem to be very angry or freaking out, swinging madly like Luke does at the end of ROTJ...Seems Anakin joined the dark side out of good intentions while Luke was going to join the dark side out of dark intentions...

    I found this very interesting upon watching ROTS last night, and would like to share it with my fellow fans/geeks. :)

    I hope this is the right forum.

    Discuss! :)
  2. Chosen_One1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2005
    star 4
    Wow I never thought of that before, nice find[face_peace] . It is interesting that Anakin was able to control his anger against Palpatine while Luke wasn't.
  3. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4
    Luke was never going to turn to the dark side. Ankin did use the dark side to defeat Dooku, He was using the dark side when he was dueling Obi-wan, He was using the dark side during episode's 4,5,6 and he did get angry when he killed the Tusken Raiders in episode 2, Anakin is really more of a dark side jedi then a light side jedi. Luke is more of a light side jedi, Anakin said yes to the Emperor and Luke sayes no, Luke was more of a jedi then Anakin ever was.
  4. Luke_SW Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2003
    star 2
    um....nice try
    but Anakin didn't spare Palpatine because he controlled his anger
    He did it, once again, out of selfishness
    He kept him alive just in case he needed him to save Padme, in case what Palps was saying was true
    Maybe a part of the reason was the Jedi in him still nagging to do things by the book
    but he could still turn him over to the Jedi and still have him be alive to learn from
    That's why Anakin went after Mace, to make sure Mace only arrested him, and not killed him
    Anakin didn't think murder was wrong any longer
    He murdered Dooku earlier in the film when he should have just arrested him for crying out loud

    Luke wasn't perfect either
    There's no denying that he gave into his anger and tried to strike at Palps
    But in the end, and at the height of his anger, he controlled himself and threw down his weapon and left himself defenseless regardless of the consequences rather than ever turn to the Dark Side
    Anakin succeeded at first in putting down his weapon, but it wasn't to be noble and to avoid doing a Dark act, he did it like I said, just to keep his own options open, for his own selfish gain

    Luke had absolutely nothing to gain when he threw down his saber
    He didn't resist murdering Palps for his own benefit, because he thought he could use him somehow
    He did it because he was a strong, good person, and an accomplished Jedi
    and much more of a respectable Jedi than Anakin ever was
  5. uwishuwereme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2005
    star 3
    But Luke did seem like a dark jedi at the beginning of RotJ he was abusing his force abilities using force persuade on that alien thats with Jabba to convince him to let him see Jabba,choking out the gammoreans etc.
  6. prefontaine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2005
    star 1
    Anakin failed twice. The first time he pulled his saber on Palpatine he should have used it, and he also should have let Luke's find its mark when Luke pulled his saber on Palpatine. Saving an evil being from being destroyed so that said being can rampage on the galaxy is certainly dark enough, especially when it was done out of selfishness and greed.
  7. prefontaine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2005
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    Wrong. Following through with the choke would've been abusing his abilities, he was simply dealing with them in an appropriate manner when they acted agressively towrds him. To argue that his mind manipulation on Bib Fortuna was abusing his force abilities is to also argue that Qui-Gon's manipulation of Boss Nass was also an abuse, as was Obi-Wan's on the stormtroopers in Mos Eisley. I suspect you wouldn't feel that way about those instances, correct?
  8. uwishuwereme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2005
    star 3

    If Luke would have killed him Luke would then have turned to the Darkside Vader saved Sidious and Luke by blocking the swing.
  9. prefontaine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2005
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    Why would Luke have turned to the dark side? Did Obi-Wan turn to the Dark Side when he killed Maul?

    Read the ROTJ novel. In it Vader's reason for blocking the blow is that it is likely that Luke will return to his friends if he kills the Emporer there, and Vader will not have an apprentice to rule the galaxy with. Again, purely selfish reasoning...
  10. uwishuwereme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2005
    star 3
    It was just an opinion you dont need to insult me personally.
  11. uwishuwereme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2005
    star 3

    I think Luke would have turned to the darkside because he would have given into his anger in striking down a defenselsess Palps, like Anakin and the sandpeople. Thats why the emperor was telling him to strike him down in the scene.
  12. prefontaine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2005
    star 1
    I was referring to Vader, not you personally. Sorry for the confusion... [face_peace]
  13. prefontaine Jedi Knight

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    Feb 6, 2005
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    Well, I don't think we can take what Palpatine says at face value to be the truth. Unfortunateky Anakin did and it cost him. While the seeds were sown for Anakin to turn when he killed Dooku, he didn't do so immediately, and still had the chance to avoid his fate. I would like to think that Luke would have had the same opportunity if he chose to leave after destroying the evil, corrupt Palpatine.

    If Mace had been successful in killing Palpatine in his office, would that have caused him to turn to the dark side?
  14. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
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    Killing out of anger is not the Jedi way. Obi Wan killing Maul was self-defense (in a duel) Mace killing Jango was in the middle of a war...These are differnt cases but STRIKING arregsively intending to KILL the person is murder and not the Jedi way, no matter who or what the person is.

    Anakin did not consider joning Palps for Padme yet until he decides to later on in the ruminations scene. In the Revelation scene, Anakin admits he would certaintly like to kill him and Palpatine says that this is good and he can feel his anger. He dosen't say: No! Don't kill me! If you do, any chance of saving Padme will be lost! No, thats not until later on. Right now Palpatine is trying to use Anakin's anger to seduce him to the dark side but since that does not work, he resorts to the Padme bait.

    Oh and I don't think Luke or Anakin or even Mace for that matter would have really been able to kill Palpatine anyway...Palpatine would have used the Force to remove their sabers from their hands right before the blade touches him, or he would have a Force sheild around him like in the KOTOR games. They would have given into anger for no reason...


    Palpatine is very manipulative and extremely powerful.


    EDIT: Oh and yes, I do think Mace would have gone dark had he killed Palpatine.

    Once you start down the dark path..forever will it dominate your destiny.

    Anger, fear, agrression..The Dark Side of the force are these. Easily they flow. Quick to join one in a fight.

    All in IMHO, ofcourse but supported with facts from the SW mythos.

    :)
  15. prefontaine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2005
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    Why would Mace have gone dark? It is clear that Palpatine was not "unarmed" and defenseless. In fact, when he tells Luke that he is "unarmed" it is a crock of s***. As long as Palpatine is alive, and not dismembered he is not "unarmed" or defenseless. Therefore the argument that any Jedi taking him down is going to succumb to the Dark Side for killing a defenseless being holds no water.

    What about Yoda? Had he been successful in the Senate chambers would he have turned to the Dark Side as well? He certainly instigated that fight. Palpatine was a threat to everyone except his cronies, taking him out when the opportunity presents itself is not going to cause a Jedi to "go mad" and turn to the Dark Side.

  16. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
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    That is why Yoda gave up the fight, I think. This is where he relizes that the Sith cannot be defeated through sheer force of strength for war has become the very province and tool of the dark side. The only way for the Sith to be destoyed is by fate, and the will of the Force. Eventually the Sith will destroy themselves like they done before in the past.

    Oh, and the people who were about to kill Palpatine really did THINK they would kill Palpatine. WE know he is really unarmed but they don't. So the intent is the same whether they suceed or not.
  17. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I don't think Anakin was any better than Luke, even before his turn. You also have to take into consideration that Luke was provoked by the Emperor a lot more than Anakin was. He was watching his friends die and the Rebellion lose. That doesn't justify his actions, but Luke was able to find the right path after he thought about the situation rationally and threw down his saber.

    I think the fact that Palpatine mentioned the possibility of saving Padme made Anakin reluctant to kill him, even in the beginning. That's why he goes back to the office to make sure Mace doesn't kill the Chancellor. Some of Anakin's other dark acts, such as the Tusken massacre and even Dooku's murder, are much worse than anything Luke did.
  18. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
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    Think about it. If the Tuskens had done the same thing to Leia, I'm sure Luke would go on a rampage and kill them all too. Oh and how was Anakin supposed to take Dooku into custody aboard a crashing ship?
  19. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    I think Luke would have turned to the darkside because he would have given into his anger in striking down a defenselsess Palps, like Anakin and the sandpeople. Thats why the emperor was telling him to strike him down in the scene.[/quote]

    Well, I don't think we can take what Palpatine says at face value to be the truth. Unfortunateky Anakin did and it cost him. While the seeds were sown for Anakin to turn when he killed Dooku, he didn't do so immediately, and still had the chance to avoid his fate. I would like to think that Luke would have had the same opportunity if he chose to leave after destroying the evil, corrupt Palpatine.

    If Mace had been successful in killing Palpatine in his office, would that have caused him to turn to the dark side?




    Yep, the Emperor was completely wrong and foolish in thinking that stiking down a defenseless sith would turn someone to the dark side. Remorse maybe, but not a turn to the dark side. Does anyone seriously believe that Obi-Wan would have turned Sith if he had finished off the no arms and no legs Anakin ?
  20. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Think about it. If the Tuskens had done the same thing to Leia, I'm sure Luke would go on a rampage and kill them all too. Oh and how was Anakin supposed to take Dooku into custody aboard a crashing ship?

    Luke probably wouldn't have killed innocent women and children. Anakin wasn't supposed to execute Dooku. The movie makes it clear that it isn't the Jedi way. He should have taken him along like he did with Obi-Wan.

    I haven't seen Anakin do anything that suggests he's morally superior to Luke. Luke was able to resist crossing over the dark side, but Anakin wasn't. Just because Anakin didn't kill Palpatine the minute he found out he was a Sith doesn't make him "better" than Luke. Anakin's main reason for keeping Palpatine alive has always been his selfish desire to save Padme. It all comes down to the fact that we see Anakin commit more bad deeds than Luke ever did, even before his turn.
  21. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
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    The more evil the Sith, the more evil a Jedi becomes when he chooses and acts upon the urge of giving into their anger and hatred which seduces them to kill that Sith. The evil of the Sith stir up the baser emotions within the Jedi and causes him to give into his darker feelings of anger and hate.
  22. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Luke probably wouldn't have killed innocent women and children.

    I think it would have depended on the circumstances. If they were the same, he may have. I dont think Luke was as attached to Owen and Beru as Anakin was to his mother.
  23. prefontaine Jedi Knight

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    Feb 6, 2005
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    Well, you're correct. Luke didn't go on some rampage through Mos Eisley, tearing down troopers to avenge his family's deaths. Granted, he had Obi-Wan with him, but the opportunity for indiscriminate killing again presented itself over the Death Star and he did his duty instead.

    As for this argument that if a Jedi kills a Sith, he goes bad, does this apply to a cop that shoots a criminal after that criminal chooses not to surrender? To me that seems a little far fetched, I don't know anyone that would condemn a cop for doing his duty (except other criminals). Likewise, the Jedi have a duty to confront and destroy the Sith whenever they pop up. Suppose that Vader never existed. The only reason that Luke was successful is because Darth Vader was his father. Let's say that Darth Maul were there instead. Would he have chucked Palpatine over the railing when Luke was being fried? Doubtful. In that circumstance, is a Jedi not to attempt to destroy the Sith by aggressive means? Andif he does so, is he now going to turn to evil? My dollar says no...
  24. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

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    Mar 18, 2005
    star 1
    Jedi and poliemen are expected to unarm and restrain criminals, not to kill unless in self defense. Thats like saiyng, it would be ok for a cop to kill a handcuffed felon...

    EDIT: btw, you shoulden't compare a cop to a Jedi..Jedi have magic and God-like powers in a ficitonal world...Policemen are in the real world..not a good idea to compare the two.
  25. prefontaine Jedi Knight

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    Feb 6, 2005
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    First off, you are again basing your argument on the notion that Sidious/Palpatine is unarmed, and that is not the case. Second, when criminals refuse to comply, they sometimes get hurt, much like Sidious refusing to comply when he was placed under arrest. Third, you're undermining your own theory because it was Anakin who killed an unarmed prisoner, and Luke who refused to do so. Anakin was the cop who killed Dooku, the handcuffed felon. Luke was the cop who chose to take Vader, the handcuffed felon, into custody. You can't have it both ways.

    BTW, what is wrong comparing the GFFA with real life situations? According to Lucas himself, a good deal of the GFFA is based on real world events and situations. We're supposed to learn from how these fictional characters react to situations in their world, therefore the comparison is logical.
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