Anakin really suceeded where Luke failed

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Old_Zen, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yoda just landed on the pod when he got blasted. He didn't have time to plant himself like Obi-wan and Mace did.
  2. Drac39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 6
    Luke was the better Jedi,he learned to control his anger before it consumed him,Anakin held it in until it made him erupt with periods of hatrid.

    (Tusken Raiders,Dooku)
  3. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    The ending of ROTJ was supposed to show that Luke wasn't as ready as he thought he was. He still had some ground to cover and some barriers to put up. When Leia's threatened,he lashes out,Just like Anakin would to Padme. And as Luke stands over his father,he realizes he's making the same mistakes,and becomming just like him.

    Firstly, great post, very thoughtful.
    However, I couldn't disagree more.

    I think the ending of ROTJ shows that Luke is more ready
    than we thought he'd be.
    Sure he gets aggressive when Luke threatens Leia.
    But what Jedi doesn't ever fight aggressively?
    Ben, Yoda, Mace... all of them pushed.
    You can't overcome temptation without the temptation.
    If Luke hadn't had that moment of doubt and reflection,
    I would have doubted his ability and it would have
    diminished his self-actualization as a jedi.
  4. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    But what Jedi doesn't ever fight aggressively?
    Ben, Yoda, Mace... all of them pushed.


    Yeah, I think the PT shows that a little anger doesnt automatically turn you to the dark side. Whereas before, with just the OT, we were sort of led to believe that it did.
  5. Old_Zen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    star 1
    Why did you star out my word? Your making me look bad near the holidays, friend! I did'nt say a curse word, I only said a certain version of a word that could mean the same thing..by starring out my whole word, your giving me a bad reputation on the boards and people aren't going to take me seriously when we discuss things, and label me as a bad mouthing troll.

    Just voicing my dis-pleasure..I don't think its fair. Atleast just edit out the word completely. Don't Star it out to make it look like I said a really bad word. I'm not like that.


    Thank you. :)

    Getitng back on topic, yes in the end Luke is more a Jedi but Anakin had more regret over killing and reservations of killing than Luke or Leia did. I mean Luke kills all those stormtroopers and officers and all the people on the DS, Jabba's men, etc, etc and dosen't even raise an eyebrow, while Anakin breaks down after he kills his mother's attackers and when he kills Dooku, atleast admits and expresses he did wrong and feels bad about it...even after he kills all the people at the end of ROTS, he sheds a tear and after he thinks he killed Padme, he lets the infamous: NOOOOO!
  6. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Uhm, Luke was blowing up the DS because the DS was
    about to vaporize Yavin IV. He was defending
    himself and his friends.
    Anakin assaulted the temple and murdered those kids.
    No where near the same thing.
    So why would Luke feel guilt?
  7. CieSharp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Palpatine's overconfidence, especially overconfidence in his abilities to manipulate, was his weakness. Just like in the novel, Mace realized Palpatine's shatterpoint was his trust in Anakin. So just like how Palpatine was caught off-guard in the end of ROTJ, he also most probably would been caught off-guard in ROTS, had Anakin decided to help Mace, either actively striking down Palpatine with him, or by passively looking on as Mace finished him off.
  8. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Uhm, Luke was blowing up the DS because the DS was
    about to vaporize Yavin IV. He was defending
    himself and his friends.
    Anakin assaulted the temple and murdered those kids.
    No where near the same thing.
    So why would Luke feel guilt?


    Yep, Luke fought mostly defensively, while Anakin went on the attack.
  9. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Right. So if one campares the instances where
    Luke and Anakin are most bloody-handed,
    Yavin IV and the Jedi Temple, respectively,
    Luke is fighting an actual battle against
    a real foe, who is moments away from obliterating
    yet another planet (or moon, or whatever the hell Yavin IV is).

    Anakin has been mislead into believing a plot
    where no plot exists. Those Jedi kids were
    not at war with Anakin. Were not going to
    overthrow the Republic (interesting that the Alliance
    intended to overthrow in Luke's example).

    So I just fail to see a rational analogy between
    their motives and actions.

    Luke is more a product of Obi Wan than Anakin.
  10. PyrhanaJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2003
    star 1
    I think the comparism is more real and more symbolic and more obvious when you compare the final moments of Dooku's end to the way Darth Vader was finished...given the chance to finish a vanquished foe, totally defenseless, Anakin took Dooku's life [,needlessly?]. Luke Skywalker, when he reached that same stopping point with Vader, limb and lightsaber removal, Luke just threw all of his weaponry aside. Luke succeeded where Anakin failed.

    Contrast this even further by noting that Luke turned himself over to Palpatine and walked defenseless into Jabba's palace, merely to bargain. Only after his life had been compromised twice and under the threat of losing his friends forever did Luke make his FINAL move. Luke understands his power, and its repurcussions.
  11. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    I don't think that's exactly right. Luke told Han that everything was going to plan. He must have used The Force to forsee what would happen. He also had R2 store his lightsabre for him. So basically he smuggled it in and had it waiting for him when the time was right.
  12. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    Another thing that bothers me is everyone saying how wrong it was for Anakin to kill Dooku. He was aboard an enemy ship, his own ship had been destroyed, he had no specific escape plan, the ship itself was unstable, and they were in fact captured by Grievous. He had no means to carry Dooku, and even if he somehow did so, Grievous would have freed him. Under those circumstances, he had only two options: (1) kill him, or (2) release him. Dooku was too dangerous to be kept alive. Anakin did well.[face_pig]
  13. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Simple, the batman formula.

    He didn't have to kill him,
    and by kill, we mean,
    cold blooded execution,
    but he didn't have to save him.
  14. PyrhanaJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2003
    star 1
    JarJarPlaqguies (whataname!!): Luke tried bargaining with Jabba to the very end. He battled and killed Jabba's rancor-keeper's rancor with no weapons, bare-handed, feelin' the Force...
    So he tricked Jabba...that's what it took. But, please notice JarJarP, that Luke's plan you speak of, that Luke spoke of to Han, was succeeding totally without weapon(s).

    Also, JJP [yes, you, Jar Jar Plaguis], holding the absolute leader of all the Separists hostage, prisoner, would serve no merit, would it? Dooku kneeling in front of Palpatine wouldn't serve the Jedi, would it? Dooku couldn't call off this war or anything, could he? His capture was a threat to Palpatine, and [once again/starting it all] Anakin, typically, did exactly what the Dark Lord wanted him to. Success?


    Back to topic, does anybody here really feel that Palpatine would have revealed his knowledge of the Dark Side if he believed that Anakin would even try to kill him? would get angry enough to feel like he could succeed? Hasn't Palpatine succeeded in feeling out Anakin 100%? Palpatine's encounter with Anakin was his own judgement call. I feel that through both the Force and through his own feelings he knew for certain that Anakin would not threaten him directly within that situation.
    Don't we all feel that Anakin was played?

    Anakin failed.
  15. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Another thing that bothers me is everyone saying how wrong it was for Anakin to kill Dooku. He was aboard an enemy ship, his own ship had been destroyed, he had no specific escape plan, the ship itself was unstable, and they were in fact captured by Grievous. He had no means to carry Dooku, and even if he somehow did so, Grievous would have freed him. Under those circumstances, he had only two options: (1) kill him, or (2) release him. Dooku was too dangerous to be kept alive. Anakin did well.


    I think it would have been better if Anakin finished Dooku off in one swift move still in the heat of battle after cutting off his hands. I think thinking about it was the error.
  16. prefontaine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2005
    star 1
    Or he could have walked away like Obi-Wan did on Mustafar...
  17. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    He didn't have to kill him,
    and by kill, we mean,
    cold blooded execution,
    but he didn't have to save him.


    Good point, only Anakin isn't batman,
    and Dooku would have remained a threat.
    Even had he lived and escaped, however wounded,
    Dooku was charismatic, still the head of the CIS.
    With Dooku alive, even with Greivous dead,
    the war would have continued.

    Shed tears for Dooku elsewhere, knave.
    Anakin did what he had to do, not just
    as a Jedi fighting Sith, but as a commander
    fighting the leader of the opposition.


  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin could've told Dooku to order Grievous to ceasefire and open a line of communication, so that he could tell the Republic to stop firing on them. Then order the Invisible Hand to land on Courscant.

    Not saying it would work, but it'd be perferable to just outright killing him execution style.
  19. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Do you think Greivous would have obeyed such a command?

    I guess the broader issue, is just how much does
    Grievous believe he needs Dooku?

    The first thing that would have come to my mind
    (as Grievous) would be: or what?
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Grievous obeys orders from the Sith. So, I'd say that if such a thing were to happen, he'd either obey Dooku or stick to Lord Sidious' plan.
  21. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    Look how well that went! If Obi-Wan had made sure he finished off Anakin, then the galaxy would have been spared a 23 year reign of terror! [face_devil]

    On the other hand, if Anakin had died, then who would have killed Sidious? Luke wasn't up for it, even with his "training." (Sorry, but 5 minutes with Obi-Wan and one day with yoda does not a Jedi make.)
  22. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    It would have been cleaner if Anakin had finished Dooku in the heat of battle, but that's not how the battle went. There was a pause, and the moral dilemma is how he deals with Dooku after the heat of battle has abated. I think, under the circumstances, he did the right thing. Now, if he had defeated Dooku on Geonosis, with a squad of clonetroopers on the way, then he could have, and should have, taken him prisoner. Different actions are required in different situations. [face_chicken]
  23. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

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    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
  24. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I've often wondered what the CIS would have looked like if
    Dooku had not turned...
    If he were not dangling on the strings of a Sith master.

    Could Dooku have lead something similar to what
    Mon Mothma had decades later?

    As far as Dooku getting new hands, sure, in the long
    term, he would have always been a threat.
    But i was speaking strictly in the immediacy of the moment,
    on both occasions.
  25. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1

    Of course Anakin was played! They were all played! That still doesn't mean he should have left Dooku go. If he knew at the beginning of ROTS what he knew at the end of ROTJ, then he should have killed Dooku, and then walked up to the restrained Sidious and killed him too. That would have been the true fulfillment of his destiny. Then he and Padme can live happily ever after with their children. The end.
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