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Anakin should have been more powerful

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 30, 2006.

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  1. janstett

    janstett Jedi Master star 3

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    May 29, 2004
    With time now giving me retrospect on the PT, a point that I felt throughout AOTC and ROTS has been amplified -- I feel Anakin should have been portrayed as being much more powerful in those two films. Here are my reasons why.

    As it stands, the fact that he is the "Chosen One" really only plays into the Jedi's fascination with keeping him around and to a smaller degree his mysterious origins. In the end, Anakin wasn't really more powerful than the other Jedi. He did not have abilities that others didn't have, he wasn't significantly better than them at anything in particular (dialogue about his swordsmanship aside). Anakin could have been any other Jedi who fell in AOTC and ROTS and it wouldn't have made much difference.

    My expectations were that he would be significantly more powerful than other Jedi, always on the brink of losing control. I pictured him like Damian from "The Omen" -- a seriously screwed up and evil force lurks beneath him and he hasn't come to grips with it yet. I would have preferred to see Anakin be significantly more powerful than the other Jedi, perhaps even develop force abilities that no other Jedi has ever had -- such as perhaps flight (self levitation, an extension of a force jump), intimidating rage-induced force deaths (such as anneurisms or seizure -- imagine being able to kill someone with pure thought), throw in premature force lightning while we're at it. I wanted to see the Jedi sometimes taken aback by his raw power, like "Holy **** where did that come from". In fact, many of the plot lines of the Omen films could have been explored (despising and then accepting one's evil origins, et al).

    Instead, we are left with dubious origins, high midichlorian counts, the Prophecy, and TALK of how powerful he is but no real proof (by action) that he's any better than the other Jedi.

    Does anybody agree?
     
  2. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    For Anakin to look really, really, powerful would have been great. It's what I wanted. But I don't agree he wasn't shown as the most powerful Jedi during the events of ROTS.

    First, think back to AOTC clones. Anakin believes he basically is better than Obiwan Kenobi and the rest of the Jedi at that point. When Count Dooku takes off his arm, he is forced to rethink that. So between AOTC and ROTS, he goes to work and trains like crazy to get better. Palpatine's final plans revolve around Anakin becoming extremely strong. He felt the time was right, Anakin was indeed powerful enough. So he sets up the fight against Count Dooku. He tells the count that he has doubled his powers. IN THREE YEARS ANAKIN DOUBLED HIS POWERS. That's pretty impressive. Then he owns Count Dooku and kills him. The Count owns kenobi and hold his own with Yoda. The count is pretty impressive himself. Then Anakin has Kenobi on the ropes on Mustafar but he gets caught up in the momment and makes a bad move. Kenobi, is an underrated fighter as well. He defeated Maul, Grevious and Vader. That is pretty impressive. I think Palpatine makes his move then is because he is the most powerful Jedi in the order at that point. And all those nice powers you listed, he would probably being doing in another 3 years and Sidious would be dead. GL just decided that he wasn't going to show Anakin's top potential in the PT. I think that's pretty cool in itself that Anakin hasn't even reached his full potential and he is alreadly beyond Yoda, Mace and Obiwan in straight up skills. It's so disappointing to see Vader get injured and not to be at the top of his game.
     
  3. JediMaster_Jen

    JediMaster_Jen Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 3, 2002
    I think Anakin's lack of control of his emotions limited how powerful he could become at those stages in his development within the Force. No doubt he had become amazingly powerful, even if we didn't see it. As was said above, three years after Dooku handed him his arm, he came back and owned Dooku. His powers had grown immensly.

    It was his decision-making that always thwarted his efforts to grow in power. He would get close to achieving something and he'd do something stupid that ruined his progress. His fight with Obi-Wan on Mustrfar would have turned out differently had he not jumped from that platform, like he was warned not to do.

    Yes, he should have been more powerful, but it was his own emotional inability that made him appear weak and not as powerful as he should be.
     
  4. Siths_Revenge

    Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling star 7

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    Jul 27, 2004
    No. It doesn't fit in with the Palpatine story. If Anakin was more powerful, why does he follow Palpatine?
     
  5. Emperor_Billy_Bob

    Emperor_Billy_Bob Jedi Grand Master star 7

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    Aug 9, 2000
    Thats a good point.

    Palpatine was temporarily more powerful than Anakin.

    We saw Palpatine doing crazy ish (the Pod throwing thing is the best display of power in the whole saga, bar none.)

    Anakin was still torn, and quite honestly, I like that there is no one who is Godlike in Star Wars.
     
  6. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    There's also the fact that if Anakin is portrayed as this demonic being whose power dwarfs all others, Obi-Wan would likely be unable to beat him and then suited Vader would be such a massive disconnect from what he once was that it wouldn't link up.
     
  7. Master_EdgeCrusher

    Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 21, 2005
    I think Anakin was more powerful than they knew or could fathom other than Yoda. Sid knew what Anakin could do, but everyone other than Yoda could not see past his age, well that and the fact as we all know that well he got there than far cause of his emotions and ambitions to become the greatest Jedi ever like he said when he was that young boy from Tatooine!
     
  8. Jedi_Master_Ron

    Jedi_Master_Ron Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 29, 2006
    No, I don't agree. Anakin, in my opinion, shouldn't have been any more powerful than is portrayed in the films. Being the 'Chosen One' doesn't automatically make you the most powerful Jedi. He had great Force potential and it is possible that if he had continued his training with the Jedi he could have developed into one of the most powerful Jedi in the current order. He needed a lot more training, and a lot more control, over both his emotions and power. He was arrogant and cocky and let his emotions frequently cloud his better judgement. In AOTC on Geonosis his emotions clouded his judgement, and he rushed Dooku in the hangar bay, not thinking about strategy or risks. He ultimately lost an arm and could have been killed if Yoda had not interfered. In ROTS, as Mace threatens to kill Palpatine, Anakin's emotions once again get the better of him and he chooses to defend Palpatine and severs Mace's arm (as you know, Mace was, a short while later, killed). If he had learned better control he could have, as I said before, develop into a very powerful Jedi. I also believe, that if he continued his training his power would also have increased gradually, he would have learned a great deal more about the Force.
     
  9. janstett

    janstett Jedi Master star 3

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    May 29, 2004
    Actually, good point, but it could have made the story even more enticing. Sidious alrady seems to think Vader will be more powerful than either himself or Yoda; if Anakin knew he had a lot of raw, unbridled abilities, but temporarily allowed himself to be dominated by Sidious, it would have left his temporary subservience as a calculated move rather than the pathetic (in the literal sense) slavery he takes he in the film. It would have amplified his desire to overthrow Sidious once he sucks all the knowledge he can out of him. This was touched on with his statement that he'd overthrow the Emperor made to Padme, but if he purposely chose to serve the Emperor to learn from him and then kill him, it could have added new depth and made his 20 year apprenticeship all the more tragic. Sidious is a master of manipulating and using other people; Anakin/Vader showed no such aptitude, so it would have been nice to have seen him trying to use Sidious for once.
     
  10. Siths_Revenge

    Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling star 7

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    Jul 27, 2004
    According to Lucss, Vader is probably the weakest Sith, because after Anakin fell into the lava, he lost most of his powers. Palpatine saw this as a perfect oppurtunity to exploit Anakin.
     
  11. Master_EdgeCrusher

    Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 21, 2005
    to hear that one could have the power to bring one's lover back........
     
  12. Emperor_Billy_Bob

    Emperor_Billy_Bob Jedi Grand Master star 7

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    Aug 9, 2000
    Well, I have no doubt that originally Sidious saw himself serving that purpose too.

    Sidious KNEW that Anakin was gonna take his knowledge and kill him. Its only when Anakin is wounded that he realizes that Skywalker is gonna be his little boy for life.
     
  13. Master_EdgeCrusher

    Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 21, 2005
    be little boy or be FEAR and with fear come power, enough to mask the fact that Palp was Sid
     
  14. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    However, Vader was only around at times when Sidious had no reason to go the lengths he once did to hide who he was given that the only people who were going after the Sith (The Jedi) had been forced into hiding/destroyed.
     
  15. Jedi_Master_Ron

    Jedi_Master_Ron Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 29, 2006
    You have to realize Palpatine only stated that Anakin will be more powerful than either himself or Yoda before Anakin was burnt to a crisp and lost all his limbs. Also, for all we know, Palpatine could have been falsely stating this, he might not actually believe Anakin will grow more powerful than Yoda. He might be saying that in an attempt to rid Yoda of his hope while dueling, maybe trying to induce a mistake. He's a master at manipulation as you know, he took over the entire galaxy, he knows how to instill doubt in his enemies, but we have no way of knowing this for sure, so it's almost pointless to argue.
     
  16. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    Sidious isn't lying when he tells Yoda Vader will become more powerful than either of them. GL himself states if Vader wasn't injured on Mustafar, he would become twice as powerful as Sidious. Sidious is the most powerful Force user in the saga, period. I'm really surprised at how people are trashing Anakin Skywalker. First of all, he began his training late and he mistakenly thought for many years that he was at the level of yoda and mace. His wake up call was when Dooku force pushed him on the ground with only 1 arm. so in a period of 3 years he goes to work and doubles his powers.

    In my opinion, by ROTS, he is the best Jedi in the order by just straight up skills. Because he's a mess emtionally though, the only people that are capable of beating him are yoda, mace and OB ( sidious too of course). But it only makes sense that even if your all powerful, doesn't mean you can discover everything about the Force yourself. Anakin didn't know the secret to save people from death so he needed sidious. And interestingly, from the ROTS novel, Palpatine wanted Anakin so he and him could "unlock every secret of the Force".
     
  17. Jedi_Master_Ron

    Jedi_Master_Ron Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 29, 2006
    I said it's pointless to argue what Sidious truly believed at the time. I'm sure if Anakin hadn't been defeated by Obi-Wan he would have eventually surpassed the level of power Sidious was at in ROTS but that doesn't mean Sidious believed it. Anakin may have surpassed him in lightsaber skills and power, but I doubt he would ever be as knowledgeable about the Force. I agree that Anakin started his training late, but then again, so did Luke, and he became way more powerful than Anakin ever was and Luke started a whole lot later and had a great deal less training, so really, Anakin being trained later really isn't a factor in this. LV66, you also mention that Anakin thought he was equal to Yoda and Mace but his mentality didn't make him any less powerful. It caused him to make rash decisions at times, but it didn't effect his physical ability.

    We're all entitled to our opinions and if you believe Anakin is the best Jedi in the order at the time, I can accept that, though I do not agree. He was a great deal less knowledgeable of the Force than any other Jedi on the Coucil and while he had raw talent, he was not by any means the most powerful. Yoda and Mace and even Obi-Wan were a lot more accomplished swordsman than Anakin.
     
  18. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    How can you say that? We have no idea what the future held for Vader. He could have matured and decided to study all aspects of the Force. He could have accessed Sith holocrons. He could have done a number of things. Sidious was very knowledgable with the Force, but that doesn't mean Vader could have gone on and done the same things. It would actually make sense for Sidious to have Vader become knowledge because he viewed him as the heir to the Sith legacy.


    This is a sore subject for me. I'd rather not discuss the OT. So we will leave the Anakin/Luke being trained late aside.


    No, I think you mistake what I am saying. In AOTC (and previous years I'm sure) Anakin believed his own hype. He felt that he was as strong as Obiwan, Mace and Yoda. He felts his skills and power where right there at the top of the order. He thought he could take down anyone. Hence, him running straight and Dooku. That's the wake up call. He now realizes that he isn't as strong as those guys. So and trains and does get up there with those guys. I am just saying, by ROTS, he has skills and power on the same level of Yoda, Mace and Obiwan. We all see in the Mustafar battle that Obiwan is tiring. But Obiwan wins because Anakin can't handle Obiwan telling him can't do something. If Anakin was a level headed guy, things would be much different in a GFFA.



    I disagree. How where Mace and Yoda more accomplished swordsman? Yoda struggled against both Dooku and Sidious. Mace was set up against Sidious. I'm not sure I would call Obiwan a more accomplished swordsman, but I would say that he has the more impressive resume (defeats of Grevious and Maul). Plus this whole thing about the knowledge of the Force. I don't know how important that actually is (unless it's Jacen Solo in the EU) but we see in the PT that Anakin can overcome his lack of 'knowledge' against opponents that have a lot, a la Dooku. Same for Sidious against Yoda, 900 years against 70 years.
     
  19. Han-my-boogie

    Han-my-boogie Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 27, 2005
    "You're not all powerful Annie."
     
  20. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    "Well I should be! Someday I will be! I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!"
     
  21. DarthLegion012

    DarthLegion012 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 30, 2006
    Well, Anakin was to ambitious.But yes he should be more powerful, i mean the only duel he won was that against Count Dooku.He lost against him first in episode II, when he was aprentice,but Obi-Wan was also aprentice when he defeated Darth Maul.I think that Obi-Wan is more powerful than Anakin.I didn't see that any of Jedi gived Anakin credit for his victory in duel against Dooku.Thats shame because Count Dooku was very powerful Sith Lord.
     
  22. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2004
    I agree that I would've liked to see Anakin even more powerful in ROTS, considering its claimed to be his prime. I think they were just showing you where he was going with the Jedi, he's a jedi knight now he's enhancing his powers and becomming 'a better jedi then Obi wan' as Obi Wan says himself.I think Lucas was trying to indicate that Anakins finally on the right track for the Jedi, he's finally being taken seriously. However, his lust for power turning him to the darkside gives him a different power and that is his anger. Anger and fear are powerful motives but also dominates his actions and thats why he gets pwned.

    I like the powerful vader shown in the OT, where he may be a slow fighter but he holds his own and takes out everyone else.I love how he uses one hand to parry or block when fighting Luke, it just makes him seem like he fights powerful jedi knights/masters daily.
     
  23. Jedi_Master_Ron

    Jedi_Master_Ron Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 29, 2006
    We know what the future holds for Vader and his knowledge in the Force never surpasses Sidious. I'm guessing that you did watch the OT, right? I'm pretty sure that a victory on Mustafar would've boosted Anakin's confidence in himself, making him believe himself more powerful than he really was, rather than mature and study all aspects of the Force. Anakin's mentality really wouldn't change all that much if he hadn't been burnt to a crisp, it may worsen slightly as I mentioned, but it wouldn't change.

    I understand perfectly well what your saying and as I said before, his mentality that he believes he is on the same level or close to the same level as the most powerful Jedi at the time will not effect his physical abilities. It doesn't matter if he believes he is on the same level as these guys, it's not going to effect him in any way during a duel, except for perhaps clouding his judgement at times. He would've recieved the same amount of training from his master even if he had a level head. By ROTS he is not the same level as Yoda, Mace, or Obi-Wan. Yoda sends Obi-Wan to duel Vader because he believes that Kenobi isn't strong enough to defeat the Emperor. Obi-Wan defeats Anakin-Obi-Wan isn't strong enough to confront Sidious-Yoda is strong enough to confront Sidious-Yoda holds his own with Sidious, disarms him, and falls off a pod (while Sidious barely hung on), he didn't lose the duel-that means Anakin isn't as strong as Obi-Wan or Yoda in ROTS. Mace disarms and corners Sidious in his duel, making him stronger than Anakin as well. I don't understand what your saying here in your second to last sentence, he only lost because Obi-Wan tells Anakin he can't do something? I don't recall that ever happening, Anakin lost because he was worse than Obi-Wan.



    I pretty much summed up your first question in my previous paragraph. Also, Yoda did NOT struggle against either Dooku or Sidious. He was very much in control of his whole duel against Dooku in AOTC. Dooku couldn't attack the first part of the duel, then flees knowing he couldn't defeat Yoda. He throws a pillar on Obi-Wan and Anakin, then flees. If Yoda was strugg
     
  24. lovelucas

    lovelucas Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2004
    It's all about the potential of Anakin
    1. to fulfill the promise of being the Chosen One
    2. to become the most powerful Jedi ever


    I think George made the right decisions about Anakin....if he was already at the zenith of his power, it would have been entirely different story, one that would have never matched up with the ending of RotS nor the OT.
     
  25. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    Exactly. It's the loss of potential that's part of the tragedy, and it's key with tragic heros. You're left to wonder what could have been if this person had never succumbed to his own weaknesses.
     
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