Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.

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  1. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    1) I don't think you understand what schizophrenia is; you are stating some commonly held misconceptions about it here by bringing it up in this way.

    2) Multiple personalities would not explain this in any way shape or form. The other poster was essentially correct ("the boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader").
  2. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Oh so he only 'temporarily' gave into Palpatine? It was just meant to be a part-time gig? Oh, mmk. (???)
  3. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Actually, I'm sure that's exactly the way Anakin saw it. Once he had what he wanted, he could defeat Palps and restore good to the galaxy - that's exactly what he said to Padme (and, to a certain extent, Luke). He just had to get his hands a bit dirty first.

    Naive as hell, of course, but that's what the character was.
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  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
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    "Good" in that case being him ruling with absolute power and using a powerful military apparatus to force order on the galaxy, no matter what.

    I have the personal theory that every fresh-backed Sith has to go through a "delusional" phase in which they are completely out of their mind before they regain control (or not) and start acting with much more restraint (Vader in OT).
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  5. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    But it would still be 'good' - from a certain point of view. Means to an end. That's the whole point, and why Anakin turned evil. GL himself said so - evil people convince themselves that what they're doing is for the right reasons.

    Let's say Anakin did overthrow the Emperor and took the crown himself, here's an ultra-simplistic illustration of what might have happened:

    Year One - slavery is completely outlawed in the Galactic Empire (previously the Galactic Republic)
    Year Two - all systems aligned to the Separatist movement that support slavery are invaded and occupied by the Galactic Empire, slavery is abolished in these systems
    Year Three - all systems aligned to the Separatist movement are invaded and occupied by the Galactic Empire. All resistance is dealt with swiftly and brutally
    Year Four - the Galactic Empire expands into the Outer Rim, under the pretext of abolishing slavery. All resistance is dealt with swiftly and brutally
    Year Five - Resistance movements in the new colonies are put down swiftly and brutally
    Year Six - Martial law is declared in the Outer Rim, due to resistance movements
    Year Seven - Resistance fighters imprisoned by the Galactic Empire are placed into forced labour camps to assist the war effort against insurgency in the Outer Rim Territories
    Year Eight - Civil rights of all citizens are restricted across the entire Galactic Empire
    Year Nine - a state of emergency is declared, Emperor Anakin Skywalker abolishes the Galactic Senate. Regional governors are given complete control over their territories, including the use of forced labour.

    And before any snotty trainspotters start picking apart the exact times, dates & details - it's really just a rough illustration of how Anakin's Utopian vision could have turned out, all in the name of freedom.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 8, 2013
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  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    He wouldn't last a month because he has no political experience, no political allies, no money and is associated with traitors (Jedi).

    Year one: Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine are dead and the galaxy is in shambles

    OT Vader would stand a much better chance of ruling but even he would need to appoint a political figurehead because I can't imagine him dealing well with politicians & paperwork. His talents lie elsewhere.
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  7. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Pre-barbeque, that would have been Padme. That's what he wanted.

    Doesn't mean it could or would have happened, but I was merely addressing the naive beliefs that Anakin himself had - then the irony of how things probably would have turned out even if everything went 'perfectly'. Perhaps even worse under the deluded benevolent iron fist of Anakin Skywalker, who might have been remembered as a worse monster than Emperor Palpatine, due to Anakin's complete lack of understanding of politics.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 8, 2013
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  8. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    Padmé? She would do even worse than Vader, the silly girl.

    For your second point: Yes yes, like I said, I believe Vader to be completely delusional and out of his mind in that time period. He probably even thought that the populace would like him as their ruler and that he wouldn't have to use force against it.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 8, 2013
  9. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Exactly. He knew what was best for them, he was a war hero, they loved and respected him - they would completely sympathise and agree with whatever hard-handed measures he had to take to make things right.

    Until he had to introduce more taxes, rationing, censorship, restriction of civil liberties...

    Then he'd have to make them understand what's right. And it would still be right, nevertheless.
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  10. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    I guess so but he wouldn't even last long enough for the populace to "unlike him" because of assassination.
  11. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
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    I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible for someone to have a change of heart. As slim a chance as it is, it does exist within the realm of possibility that someone like Hitler could change his mind and feel remorse and sorrow for what he had done. Obviously Hitler didn't, but he, like any other human being, possessed the ability to feel sorry. Had he not killed himself and instead internally 'redeemed' himself he still would have had to deal with the legalities of the terrible acts that he had committed and would surely still be hated by the general public. The same applies to Darth Vader, except that, in the end, he actually was sorry. Had he not died in the second Death Star he too would have been hated by the remnants of the Rebel Alliance (and probably by a lot of the average joes working for the Empire as well). Internally, however, he recovered and was able to embrace his true self.
  12. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
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    Nothing is 100% impossible, but that is about as unlikely as it gets. As a therapist for mentally ill inmates, I see some who reform, and some (most) who do not. Those who have multiple murders pretty much without exception have Antisocial Personality Disorder, and basically are not able to experience remorse or empathy for others (a learned inability). These people mellow out with age (less aggressive/criminal behavior), but as far as remorse goes, pretty much nonexistent. People with lesser crimes/acts can see the errors in their ways and change, but when you get to the level of mass murder, you are not going to see that.
  13. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
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    Vader slaughtered kids and wanted to see the death of people close to him (Obi-Wan, Padme) that's not the intentions of someone who knows they're going through a slight bad patch but it'll all be cool in the end once they get their way.
  14. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    But I repeat, it wouldn't be cool in the end once they get their way.

    Even in death Anakin was a person who did terrible, unforgivable things. The only difference between Vader in RotS, ANH, and TESB and Anakin at the end of RotJ was that, in the events leading up to his death, Anakin was able to separate himself from his evil past and, for the first time in a very long time, do what was required of him to actually bring forth the peace that Palpatine had falsely promised so long ago.

    Anakin's redemption doesn't make his past simply disappear. It just makes his present more meaningful.

    "Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs."
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  15. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 16, 2013
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    Someone who slaughters kids can never be redeemed. No matter what. They are condemned to be scum for all eternity. Be it a film or real life.
  16. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
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    Anyone who kills anybody for any reason outside of self defense meets that criteria.

    All I'm saying is that, however unlikely it may be, it is possible for even the most evil of people to realize that what they are doing is wrong and try to the best of their ability to alter the course of their life.
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  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Was he ever really sorry for all the murders?

    All I ever saw was him defending his own flesh and blood from death. Commendable, yes, but I doubt he would go all teary-eyes suddenly about all the many murders he committed. He had decades to think over what he does and still kept murdering.

    I hope if Anakin appears in the ST he is not too whitewashed. You should still get the feeling that there's something dark clinging to the dude even if he is nice to Luke and rest of family. After all, Yoda did say that you can never totally get rid of the dark side.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 8, 2013
  18. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Have you ever seen 'The Mission' with Robert de Niro and Jeremy Irons? De Niro is a Spanish conquistador who is guilty of several heinous crimes of slavery and murder. But finds redemption in the eyes of his captors by undergoing extreme hardship,and turning around and giving his life fighting for a noble cause. But that's a film for adults lol.
  19. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
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    OK, but there is big difference between "possible" and the realm of the realistic and believable.

    Anakin's brain was twisted by the dark side, Palp uses various methods to turn him; Anakin's perspective on the world is so twisted and so far from where he was originally that he is capable of what he never would have been before (again- "the boy you trained, gone he is, twisted by the dark side young Skywalker has become") . If not for this supernatural aspect, his turning back after all of the things he had done would not have been believable. In other words, Anakin was able to reach the part of him that was good BEFORE he went to the dark side, the part of him that was developed naturally. Someone who would commit that sort of mass genocide in the real world doesn't have such an "other side"; they were a monster that was created by their environment (possibly in conjuncture with aspects of their biology/neurochemistry) early in life; thus while possible in terms of pure logical consideration, it wouldn't be feasible, realistic or believable to have that sort of a "turn." To give another example, since science is inductive, nothing is 100%, induction makes a generalization (drawing conclusions from research is induction), and thus is by definition uncertain. So, the fact that H2O freezes at 32 degrees is not 100%, but the level of confirmation is high enough so that we would not realistically think otherwise.
  20. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
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    The Mission is intensely moving--a redemption story done right. (Interestingly enough, it shares another thread with ROTJ: apocalyptic warfare between righteous primitives and bloodthirsty imperialists.)
  21. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Nov 20, 2012
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    I still need to see The Mission dammit.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
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    But adults? Kill as many as you want. Gotta love slasher movie morality.
  23. CaptainRex115 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2013
    star 3
    you forgot killing his "father", obiwan, on your list

    Yeah anakin is not deserving of complete redemption. the way i see it, his whole betrayal of the jedi order and windu is the same thing as betraying sidious in ROTJ. Vader never turned truly good, he just betrayed his order and master again for his family. the proof is in the pudding, if any other jedi was there begging for vaders help, including yoda or obiwan he would just stand there and let it happen. i mean look at how long it took him so save his son from a guy who was pure evil to him. IMO anakins "redemption" was extremely weak
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Force ghosting is not "heaven". It in no way indicates absolution of sin. Anakin is only "redeemed" in the sense of having returned to the light. The question of "deserving" redemption is extraneous to that.
  25. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    But adults are capable of fighting back. It kinda reminds me of the scene in Enter the Dragon when O'Hara breaks the board with his fist to try and intimidate Bruce. 'Very good, but boards don't hit back'. Killing children is cowardly. Murder is murder, but there is a difference. A child murderer is looked upon VERY differently to your run of the mill nutcase murderer in a prison environment.
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