Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Who cares? Why does that make killing them any less reprehensible, or any more suitable for "redemption"? ( And how exactly does an unarmed person "fight back" against automatic weapons? )

    That's because bad people never pass up an opportunity to try to make themselves look better by pointing the finger at someone else. If you're setting up violent criminals as some kind of authority on the question of morals, you might have the wrong idea.
    Bob Octa likes this.
  2. Louche Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Who cares? WHO CARES?! What would have been more difficult for dear old Anakin, killing a room full of adult lightsaber-wielding Jedi Knights or slaughtering a helpless group of Jedi Younglings?
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  3. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Didn't Anakin shed a tear when he entered the room full of Younglings?
  4. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I hope not considering he's a Sith Lord and that doesn't sound very dark side like. The only reason he's even killing younglings is to shed his Jedi identity completely.
  5. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    He shed a tear after killing the Separatist Council.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  6. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    In the ROTS novelization, Anakin totally lost it sanity-wise at that point, was thinking of moving IN Mustafar for some horrible reason, and was very very insane and yandere. The only reason he'd be crying is if he hadn't committed enough murder. xD
  7. Padawan Fangirl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2013
    star 3
    I see the point of the original post. But keep in mind, when ROTJ came out, we didn't know much about Anakin Skywalker other than: 1) he was a former Jedi with Obi-Wan Kenobi; 2) at some point he fell to the Dark Side and became the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Vader; 3) HD is Luke's(and, evidently, Leia's), father.

    Nobody knew about the circumstances under which Luke and Leia were born, nor about Order 66 or Knightfall. Nobody knew of Amakin's struggles to remain a Jedi. We didn't know for a long time his whole story.

    I think the point of his redemption is that anyone, even mass murderers, can be forgiven, if their repentance is sincere.

    Vader at the end realized 1) he really did love his son(and Leia, in theory) ; 2) the Emperor didn't give a flying crap about his apprentice, evidenced by his egging-on of Luke to kill Vader; 3) at the end of the day, being a Sith Lord had not benefited him in any way.

    Keep in mind, Leia didn't forgive Anakin at first, even after he appeared to her. She still viewed him as a mass murderer who destroyed her planet. She didn't forgive him til she got a hold of either Padmé's or Shmi's diary, and learned more about her father.

    I would like to say that I do not believe emotions and circumstances justify murder and other criminal, immoral behavior. I do believe it can influence behavior, but it should not be used as an excuse.

    Sent from my stupid little astro droid using TapaTalk 2.
  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    The more I hear about the ROTS novelization, the less I feel like reading it. Stover seems to have misinterpreted a lot of GL's story.

    Of course, some of the things I hear are probably just misinterpretations on the readers' part.





    Translation can be tricky
    /LM
    VanishingReality likes this.
  9. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I think that the "Nooooo!" scene is where his regret (over losing Padme) is conveyed in the most powerful way. For me, it almost makes no sense for him to regret anything else in Mustafar. He told Obi-wan that the Jedi who from his point of view are evil. Ditto with the separatist leaders who he probably sympathized with less than the Jedi.

    ROTS is my favorite movie and Stover's novelization is one of the best EU novels there is. I'm really sorry for being a noob when discussing it but that doesn't mean it isn't epic.
    Last edited by VanishingReality, Jan 8, 2014
  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    As far as I'm concerned, anyone is worthy of redemption, as long as he or she realizes the mistakes they had made and is willing to turn away from the wrong path.


    The tears came afterward.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 8, 2014
  11. TX-20 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 3
    If he is the "Chosen One", then he doesn't need to be redeemed because he only did what he was meant to do.
    TOSCHESTATION and MOC Yak Face like this.
  12. Ezekial Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 3
    This is what makes the whole "Chosen One" BS so much the more annoying. It gives too much significance to him. Better that he simply be an aristocratic Prussian General...
    TOSCHESTATION and MOC Yak Face like this.
  13. Ezekial Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 3
    Stories of simple good and evil never contain moments like..."I am your father..."

    They only contain snarling nastiness.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Anakin wasn't supposed to betray and kill those that he cared for. That was a choice that he made because of how selfish he had become. Anakin is redeemed because he became a good man again and made the right choice this time. He can never be forgiven by the Republic for what he did. He can never make amends for his crimes. All he could do was end the horror and prove to Luke that he was right and that he was worth saving. That is his redemption. His appearing as a ghost was a gift from Obi-wan and Yoda because he had done good at last and it was for his benefit and for Luke's.

    It is looked at that way not so much because they can or cannot fight back, but because children are viewed as innocents due to their age, more than their size. We don't look down so much on adults because adults aren't pure. It is just different moral viewpoints that we use to justify killing and not killing.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Jan 9, 2014
    Bob Octa, Darth Raiden and Iron_lord like this.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yup- Anakin learned it from Obi-Wan- right after his death.

    This is the scene shown from Anakin's point of view:

    Closing his eyes as he slumped back againt the shuttle ramp, Anakin Skywalker had every reason to believe he was finally about to embrace perpetual darkness.
    Not for the first time, he was wrong.

    Initially, there was darkness for Anakin Skywalker, a boundless shadowy realm, like a universe without stars. But then, from somewhere at the edge of his awareness, he perceived a distant, shimmering light, then heard a voice say, Anakin.
    The voice was familiar.
    Although Anakin no longer had a body or mouth with which to speak, he somehow answered, Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very
    Anakin, listen carefully, Obi-Wan interrupted, and Anakin was aware that the distant light was either growing brighter or closer, or perhaps both. You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force, If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades.
    Knowing he was beyond redemption, Anakin said, But Master ... why me?
    Because you ended the horror, Anakin, Obi-Wan said. Because you fulfilled the prophesy.
    The light was very bright now.
    Anakin's first thought was that he might be able to see his children again. He said, Thank you, Master.

    This is the scene from Obi-Wan's point of view:

    Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his former friend but his own capacity for hope.
    Fortunately, Luke's unwavering faith in his father's innate goodness had proved to be a stronger force than the power of the dark side.
    Obi-Wan recalled what Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit had told him so long ago, when he said that Obi-Wan was not ready, and that he failed to understand. For so many years, Obi-Wan had thought Qui-Gon meant that he wasn't ready to comprehend details about Anakin's conversion to the dark side. But now, he finally understood his Master's words.
    I wasn't ready to forgive Anakin. And he won't be entirely free unless I do.
    Unfortunately, just as Obi-Wan realised that Anakin Skywalker lived, he also knew that Anakin would not live much longer. As Luke hauled his dying father toward a shuttle, Obi-Wan's spirit shifted his own psyche to another realm. And he waited.

    After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."
    A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness. "Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very—"
    "Anakin, listen carefully," Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."
    Obi-Wan sensed confusion and remorse in Anakin's psyche, then Anakin answered, "But Master ... why me?"
    "Because you ended the horror, Anakin," Obi-Wan said. "Because you fulfilled the prophesy. Because you were ... and are ... The Chosen One."
    But Obi-Wan knew in his heart that those were not the only reasons. He added, "Because I was wrong about you. And because I am your friend."
    Anakin answered quietly, "Thank you, Master."

    Both are from books that revisit the events of the OT and the PT, and intermingle them with a few notable EU events as well. The two books are The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, and The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi - both by Ryder Windham.
    Bob Octa and Darth Raiden like this.
  16. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I am glad Anakin was redeemed. I believe everyone has that potential. Condemning people is wrong. It's the actions that are wrong and everyone has made wrong decisions.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  17. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    It's not a ledger-squaring kind of redemption. It's more of a Christian redemption based on what's in your heart.

    Rightly or wrongly...
    Kenneth Morgan and Iron_lord like this.
  18. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    I have read it and I didn't like it much. For one thing, Anakin is portrayed less as a good man who turned bad, chose to do evil and paid dearly for it, and more as someone who's mentally disturbed and possibly has multiple personality disorder. And the last passage of him speaking to "himself" is far too close to a similar scene at the end of William Goldman's novel Magic (and the movie adaptation, thereof).

    Plus Stover presents Artoo's dialogue translated into English, which is a big mistake. The only place I've liked that sort of thing is in William Shakespeare's STAR WARS.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Are you thinking of this bit?

    Padmé? Are you here? Are you all right? you try to say, but another voice speaks for you, out of the vocabulator that serves you for burned-away lips and tongue and throat.
    "Padmé? Are you here? Are you all right?"
    I'm very sorry, Lord Vader, I'm afraid she died. It seems that in your anger, you killed her.
    This burns hotter than the lava had.
    "No ... no, it is not possible!"
    You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death.
    Never.
    But you remember ...
    You remember all of it.
    You remember the dragon that you brought forth Vader from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader's blood. You remember the furnace of Vader's fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth-
    And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.
    You did it.
    You killed her.
    You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself ...
    It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-
    Because now your self is all you will ever have.
    And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power that you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
    In the end, you do not even want to.
    In the end, the shadow is all that you have left.
    Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself-
    And in your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.
    This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
    Forever ...

    Padawan Fangirl likes this.
  20. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    All this thinking raises an interesting question in my head
    All that time, some small shred of Anakin remained in the carcass that was Vader. There was still good in him, just as Padme and Luke insisted.

    But... even after his redemption... if we follow this logic... is there still a fragment of Darth Vader that persists in Anakin's spirit? Is it true after all that the dark side will forever dominate your destiny? Perhaps I'm getting into Ep VII/ST speculating here, but I can't help but wonder if Anakin truly WAS redeemed to begin with.
  21. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    Yep, that's it.
  22. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Read it! Its awesome! Make your own opinion of it.
  23. Ezekial Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 3
    The saving grace of the prequels are...the enormous efforts put forth by EU authors to polish what is fundamentally an extremely weak narrative.

    Mod edit: Don't say you weren't warned, smart guy. See you in 24 hours.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Jan 9, 2014
  24. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6

    Do you just come on this site just to bash the Prequels?
    son_of_skywalker03 likes this.
  25. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    @Legolas Skywalker I think he's either trolling or just really, REALLY butthurt.
    ANYWAY, back on topic!

    Soooo, that thing about if he's really redeemed...
    To me, it seems that Anakin and Vader treat each other as two separate people, as if it really is a fractured personality. I think that's really just Anakin's poor excuse to cover up his own dark side. I used to be like that too when I was a hormonal, crazy, emo teen xD
    But then again, I believe that Anakin was actually diagnosed with at least BPD (not even kidding, a real organization did this)
    When a court defendant pleads insanity and is proven to be insane, then that somehow makes them less guilty. I don't understand the logic behind this, exactly, but what about in this case of Anakin/Vader? Was he truly insane, or was he just trying to come up with a way to hide his own shame?
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