Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.
In what way? Do you believe that Seal Team Six murdered Osama bin Laden? I see Anakin's actions in largely the same context -- a soldier, ordered by his head of state to kill the head of an organization that had purposefully targeted and killed citizens of that government.
If anything, I'd say the moral implications of that scene can be laid more at the feet of the Senate and Palpatine. The same way the moral implications of the bin Laden killing rest more with Obama than the soldiers who carried it out.
If Anakin hadn't killed Dooku, what should he have done? He had no means to take Dooku prisoner. He had an obligation to Palpatine -- to safely shepherd the man back to Coruscant. And Obi-Wan was unconscious and needed help.
I get what your saying especially in times of war but to put another slant on it Anakin certainly breaks the laws of the Jedi so you could argue in their eyes it's definitely murder. I imagine no Jedi in that situation would kill Dooku given that he was already defeated, armless and on his knees.
The Jedi Code has a passage about killing a helpless person, which Anakin refers to. Palpatine tells him that doing it was okay, because he wanted revenge for everything that had happened, including the loss of his arm. And points out that he had done the same thing with the Tuskens. So it was wrong, that was the point. That's why he hesitates and when he does it, he's confused and somewhat remorseful. Palpatine set that up specifically so that he could further Anakin's turn, knowing full well that if he was capable of doing that, then he was capable of turning to the dark side. Palpatine even uses that trick on Luke.
PALPATINE: "Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey to the dark side will be complete."
The book dialogue is a bit more detailed than the film dialogue in this case:
Anakin: I- I couldn't stop myself...
Palpatine: You did well, Anakin. You did not only well, but right. He was too dangerous to leave alive.
Anakin: He was an unarmed prisoner...
Anakin: I shouldn't have done that.
Palpatine: Nonsense. Disarming him was nothing; he had powers beyond your imagination.
Anakin: That doesn't matter. It's not the Jedi way.
Palpatine: Have you never noticed that the Jedi way, is not always the right way?
Anakin: You don't understand. You're not a Jedi. You can't understand.
Palpatine: Anakin, listen to me. How many lives have you just saved with this stroke of a lightsaber? Can you count them?
Palpatine: It wasn't wrong, Anakin. It may be not the Jedi way, but it was right. Perfectly natural- he took your hand, you wanted revenge. And your revenge was justice.
Anakin: Revenge is never just. It can't be.
Palpatine: Don't be childish, Anakin. Revenge is the foundation of justice. Justice began with revenge, and revenge is still the only justice some beings can ever hope for. After all, this is hardly your first time, is it? Did Dooku deserve mercy more than did the Sand People who tortured your mother to death?
Anakin: That was different.
Anakin: You promised we would never talk about that again.
Palpatine: And we won't. Just as we need never speak of what has happened here today. I have always kept your secrets, have I not?
Anakin: Yes- yes, of course, Chancellor, but-
Palpatine: Anakin, my restraints, please. I'm afraid this ship is breaking up. I don't think we should be aboard when it does.
There are no excuses for Anakin's crimes. But I refuse to accept the mindset that he should not have been redeemed. I don't believe in the "eye for an eye" mentality. If Anakin expressed remorse or guilt for his past actions . . . and/or finally rejected the path of evil, then as far as I'm concerned, he was redeemed. There is no one rule regarding redemption. We all have different moral compasses. We all have different ideas about who is worthy of redemption or not.
Some of us believe that Anakin should not have been redeemed. And some of us had no problems with his redemption. There is no iron cast answer to this situation.
Meanwhile, as we cyclically argue over the definition of redemption for a fictional character....
What are we doing to address our own apathy and complicity in the murder of 15 million children every year on this planet who die from easily-preventable causes; the millions more who die in armed conflict; or, for that matter, the more than 50 billion animals we annually abuse, torture, and slaughter in an unremitting global holocaust?
Human beings like to think they're so moral and reasonable. Yet, somewhere along the way, we built democracies where slavery was/is the norm and neither slaves nor women nor non-naturalized citizens could vote, and we decided to construct a false god in money in which everything is measured according to the potential for material gain, while the richest 85 people in the world have the same amount of this (ultimately) useless currency between them as the poorest 3.5 billion (as of Oxfam International's report to the World Economic Forum in Davos earlier this year). 85 ..... 3.5 billion.
Forgive me, but that's just insanely pathetic. Perhaps these arguments are meant to pacify our uneasy consciences. And we should be worried about this hideous system we've created. It cares nothing for us; and we're all in it together. Yeah, midi-chlorians, everything being connected? That's just dumb. The system has created a pandemic sickness with many useful mouthpieces that defend it without even knowing why. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that we have a pressing responsibility to become fuller-minded, open, and aware inhabitants of the planet Earth, committed to righting serious wrongs, instead of stuffing our heads with consumerist ideals, and shallow fantasies like movies and tribal superstitions?
But yeah, Death Stars, Sith Lords, men in white plastic with guns -- evil!
But....we were talking about Star Wars, and not real life, so my answer is going to be informed by what is in the Star Wars films.
I get the feeling that you're trying to get everyone to share your opinion. It's not working with me. You can harbor whatever opinion you want. As far as I'm concerned, Anakin was redeemed. And I think everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, without someone posting a multi-paragraph statement in order to convince everyone to share his or her view.
Are you talking to me, or to Cryogenic?
When did Anakin have an apprentice & who is Caedus?? I may need to watch the 6 films again
Anakin's Padawan is in "The Clone Wars" series, which is canon as Lucas said that he considers it part of his universe. Darth Cadeus is a pure EU character, but is an example of a Jedi turned Sith who did his fair share of evil acts, but not the same ones that his grandfather had done.
I'm pretty sure "deceiving him" refers to Starkiller, both because of the deceiving and because of the "him".
Ah, I misread it.
If you live a life in a way where one good deed cancels out a bad one, then you're right. But one great act could overshadow all bad ones. There is no moral compass in the movies aside from the one that you bring in yourself when you watch the films.
Also, he was the Chosen One. Redemption was necessary to complete the story.
A question: Although I largely agree with the content of your post, would you contest that there is a division, if not necessarily a gulf, separating the proles of civilization and its Darth Vaders/Palpatines? We all may share a degree of complicity in dwelling within what is essentially a Death Star, but is it fair to conflate, say, a minimum-wage earning single mother desperately trying to get by with someone like Madeline Albright, who infamously averred that half a million Iraqi deaths was worth the "success" of the 90s sanctions? How many folks have you come across that are as glib about death and destruction as President Bush or Obama (see their Correspondence Dinner "comedy" routines, revolving around missing WMDs and drone bombings, respectively)?
While there is a distinction to be made between the sociopaths of our power structure (Palpatine) and the corrupted horrors (Vader)--if for nothing else to ruminate on and mitigate the sources of malignancy--I'm wary of holding the latter as representative of the human condition. Once we go down that route, the nature and consequences of evil diminishes.
For the most part, I've shuffled off my ROTJ-bashing coils--it's unbecoming for a now-grown man to rant and rave about the afflictions of fantasy movies--yet my distaste for Anakin's redemption will never waver. In the end, it didn't matter if the guy loved his mommy or his wife, or was improperly nurtured by a dogmatic, patriarchal outfit. He made a choice, which was to spend two decades murdering and torturing and plundering. And contrary to the prevailing audience reaction, I find his numinous resurrection repugnant. It demands that we invest our sympathies with a wayward wunderkind, rather than his innumerable victims. To put it another way, Lucas presents me with Hamlet ("Good night, sweet prince...") rather than the Macbeth I see. And there's only one way for a Macbeth to die.
You're looking at it wrong. It's not one good deed washes away a multitude of sins. It's what you do during your last moments, how honest you are with yourself about who you are and what you do, that matters. Anakin chose to sacrifice himself to save his son and in doing so, he was doing what he couldn't do before. He was a different man. He was no longer evil. He dies as a good man and that is what matters most. If he didn't die, then he could spend his life trying to atone for his deeds. Anakin is forgiven by his son, his friend and a Jedi Master who look past his sins and see the good in him once again.
I guess this makes Obi-Wan Banquo.
I really think the seriousness of Anakin / Vader's deeds relative to the 'goodness' of his redemptive actions is irrelevant to the kind of redemption being presented here. It's not a ledger squaring type of redemption, nor is it a 'stand up in court' type of situation in which the strength of his defence needs to be judged. This is a Christian style redemption, in which forgiveness and redemption is available if you have truly transformed in your heart, regardless of prior wrongs. Whether or not you believe in, or agree with this type of thing is another story, but this is what's being presented in the films.
Exactly. That's what it comes down to. Lucas said that Anakin is redeemed because having children brought out the best in him. Which is what Luke does. He makes him stop being who he was and become who he needs to be.
I disagree with the OP. Anakin as Vader was continuing the chosen one prophecy. Going off StarWars lure the chosen one seems that he was meant to nearly destroy both the Sith and Jedi. The galaxy suffered by the trillions based off these two organizations which only consisted of a few. The Sith ultimate quest to rule everything and the Jedi's belief that they knew what was best for everyone is not so different. The Jedi leading a slave army, Windu attempt to execute Sidious without trial, Yoda's decision to hide the fact that the clones came from the sith after the council found out, getting rid of members of the Council that had opposing views, and the list goes on. The Jedi themselves were heading down the path to the darkside. Heck if you pay attention many times you will see that when diplomacy did not go the way of the Jedi that they will just use the force and lightsaber to get their way. For the galaxy to survive both organizations had to be reeled in. Anakin's life chooses effectively depopulated the galaxy of force users for the sake of the rest of the galaxy. He desired redemption.
The Chosen One wasn't meant to destroy the Jedi. That was the result of Anakin's selfish choice to place Padme ahead of everyone else. His destiny was simple, he was supposed to kill the Sith. He took out one, but when he was supposed to take out the other, he didn't because he didn't want to make a sacrifice.