Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.
We do. It's becoming a Jedi again.
Darth Ladner's question may have to do with the fact that we only see THREE Force ghosts in the entire saga...........
Which only has to do with the fact that the ability to retain the identity has to be taught. The first step is being like the Jedi are. The next step is that it is a skill that must be learned.
But then by definition, it's more than just "becoming a Jedi again". It's also "learning the skill"*.
*Something which, btw, the OT never said that only 'certain' Jedi had learned, to the exclusion of all other Jedi.
I never really said otherwise. The main condition is to be a selfless and compassionate person, of which being a Jedi is and a Sith is not. I also quoted Lucas and the Annotated Screenplay that Yoda and Obi-wan helped Anakin and that they learned from Qui-gon. Yes, the OT did not say that. The PT did. Lucas came up with the explanation back in 81.
Anakin's Redemption refutes the long held belief by Jedi that "once you start down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny." The point of Anakin's Redemption is that no matter how evil someone becomes they can always be redeemed and turn back to the Path of Light. I cannot comment on Darth Cadeus, but perhaps it is a heart matter. Vader fell from grace because of love and self protection (he wanted to save those he loved, but sadly slayed them instead). Anakin is tragic. If Cadeus in contrast did not fall because of deception or a deep passion such as love, then that might explain his damnation. If Cadeus or Jacen's heart was fully given over to the Dark Side and he did not have an ounce of good left in him, that explains perhaps why he could not be redeemed. But since I know too little about Cadeus, I cannot be certain and it could just be a matter of the writer doing something that contradicts canon.
Jacen didn't believe that what he was doing was wrong all the way up to the end. Hence no one was able to get him to turn back and why he was ultimately killed by his sister. This is different from his grandfather who struggled the entire time with being a Sith Lord and harbored guilt for what he did. Hence in the conclusion of his fight with the Maul duplicate, Vader answered Maul's question about who he could hate so much to nearly kill his own self just to get him and Vader replied that he hated himself. That's how come Luke was able to reach him as well as being the embodiment of the love that he shared with Padme before it went bad.
At least he shouldn't have been a force ghost (without even knowing the technique) ...
Jacen isn't canon.
That's because Obi-wan and Yoda helped him to achieve that.
Had he (Anakin) been other than the father of the hero of the story, said help probably wouldn't have happened*.
* "Search your feelings...you KNOW it to be true."
It's less that he was Luke's father and more than he was Obi-wan's Padawan and Yoda had grown to like Anakin prior to his fall. It also shows that the Jedi are compassionate and forgiving.
I meant that the redemption itself probably wouldn't have taken place at all had Vader remained a separate character from that of Luke's father/Annikin. However:
"and more that he was Obi-wan's Padawan"
But the 1976/1977 Vader-who-killed-Annikin was Obi-Wan's student as well.
"and Yoda had grown to like Anakin prior to his fall."
Yoda must have hated Mace Windu, then? Even if I believed that Yoda liked Anakin at one time, I couldn't see this as having any effect on Anakin's fate.
"It also shows that the Jedi are compassionate and forgiving."
Not really...for the reasons you gave above. I mean, is it really 'forgiveness' if it's driven by personal - and somewhat selfish - considerations?
The more I hear this ethical/moral system/Force-driven metaphysical world view of SW explained, the more ad-hoc it sounds.
Yes, and at that same time in '81, he also had Obi-Wan and Yoda actively helping Luke to try and save his father/Vader, going so far as to have one of them directly appeal to Vader. But those things were dropped from the final film.
As a matter of fact, in the final film, Obi-Wan even attempts to convince Luke against trying to appeal to Vader's 'better angel'.
So one has to consider the context in which Obi-Wan and Yoda's 'ghost help' originally occurred.
Hard to say. In the first draft of ANH, Prince Vallorum was a Jedi turned Sith who becomes a Jedi again due to his being inspired by Annikin's valor and his growing resentment of Dashit's rule. That idea did sit with Lucas and it is hard to say if it would have come back or not. By the time TESB was half way done, Lucas was set on having Vader turn on Palpatine.
True, but it is hard to say how Lucas would have developed that relationship. As it is, it is irrelevant since Lucas never went down that road.
The ability to defy oblivion can only be done within a certain timeframe. In the rough draft and the revised rough draft, Obi-wan says that it has to happen before Vader is lost to the Netherrealm of the Force. Mace is dead long before Yoda is taught by Qui-gon how to retain his identity. Obi-wan and Yoda had prepared to retain their identity and when Anakin died, they moved to stop his transition to nothingness.
As to Yoda and Anakin, it follows that he would aid Obi-wan in doing this and allowing it to happen.
How is it selfish to help someone else?
Could you expand upon it?
Their involvement in terms of being present to assist Luke was dropped because the danger of Luke turning is lessened if they're there.
"Even though at some point Yoda and Ben interfered, I eventually decided that they couldn’t connect physically with what Luke was doing. I felt that one of the major issues in the third film is that Luke is finally on his own and has to fight Vader and the Emperor by himself. If you get a sense that Yoda or Ben is there to help him or to somehow influence him, it diminishes the power of the scene."
--George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997
But their involvement in helping Anakin to become a ghost is still consistent with his earlier writings.
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I'm with this.
If Anakin and Vader are just two names for the same person, I agree that Anakin should not be redeemed.
However, my take on Anakin's fall is that the true tragedy of it is that Sidious' seduction, using his "impending" wife's death as a lure, is most sinister in that once you pledge yourself to the dark side the way Anakin did, something takes over. It's a bait and switch. I'm not religious, but using myth as a basis, the way the scene is played in ROTS when Anakin finally gives himself over to the dark side he's in fact being possessed. The way Sidious' voice changes and the whole atmosphere of the scene suggests a possession. That's one of the reasons I like the Sith name change, it's as if the dark side is replacing the old person with this new one. If the relationship between the midi-chlorians and Jedi is symbiotic, then this is the opposite, completely parasitic.
This is why I don't agree with the idea that Anakin's fall happened too suddenly in ROTS. Anakin was always skirting the edge of, or briefly poking into the heart of the dark side, so he's always in that zone to some extent, battling with his desire to be good, but also his lust for power and his love for Padme. But when he finally gives into Sidious to have the best chance to save her, a switch is flipped and the possession takes place immediately. When Anakin stands up as Sidious gives his order to exterminate the Jedi Anakin has been suppressed beneath Darth Vader. In ROTJ that's why Luke mentions the "conflict" he senses going on within the suit of armor. Darth Vader and Anakin are at conflict with each other.
Anakin gave into the dark side to become possessed by Darth Vader. In a new Republic court I think that a redeemed Anakin Skywalker should still be sentenced to death for war crimes. I mean, the subtleties of the Force are no concern of the government. But as far as the Jedi and the arc of the saga's story are concerned the dark side committed those atrocities, not Anakin and I'm personally in favor of the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.
Thing is though, in the novelization, which is based on the script, Vader/Anakin later realizes something like "There was no Vader; there was only Anakin Skywalker" after the realization that he killed Padme
Of course, the novel was way different from the final product, so make of that what you will
Yeah for me I can't buy that. It's poetic and tragic, but it doesn't jive with what I personally pick up on when I watch the films.
Vader and Anakin are the same man. Anakin as Vader committed more than murder but was ultimately and correctly redeemed in RotJ. That's the whole point of the Saga as I read it.
Not for much longer unless they look at Anakin's legacy or something similar.
Your explanation makes some sense of why Anakin's turn in ROTS was so quick.
However, I thought that one of the cool things about the OT when it stood alone was that it seemed to be black and white, but as time went on and new chapters were added, things turned out not to be so simple. I actually quite like Obi-Wan's 'certain point of view' speech/concept. If the prequels changed it back to a black-and-white view, or perhaps simply revealed how Lucas always approached it (even if it might have appeared otherwise to a viewer of the OT), it changes or takes away something I really appreciated. Of course, that's just my opinion.
The OT is just as grey as everything else in SW for me. Never was b/w.
FS: They can do whatever they want to SW but my perceptions won't change unless I let them.
1-6 will always be that sure but 1-9? Doubt it. They might make it the Fall/Redemption/Legacy of Anakin Skywalker but they could make it the Skywalker Saga as well. 4-6 was the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, 1-6 what you said above and for 1-9 it could go either way. Wouldn't be surprised to see it change to Skywalker Saga. I don't see how we couldn't change our perceptions of it unless we ignore it completely.