Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    True. I had forgotten about the Prince Vallorum example. However, Vader's character got more blatantly evil as the writing of the first film went on. By the final script and film, not only does he kill Obi-Wan, but kills Luke's father in the back-story.



    But the teacher/student relationship still remains part of the story, which you've said weighs in on Obi-Wan's decision to help Anakin force-ghost.



    You're talking about the time-frame circumstances, but I had expressed doubt over Yoda's notional 'liking' of Anakin in the past having more significance than Anakin/Vader saving Luke and killing the Emperor in the process. [face_thinking]

    As to the 'certain time-frame', apparently it can be stretched to an (arbitrary) point beyond a person's death. Mace's death = "it's been too long" vs. Anakin' death = "hurry!! we've got about 20 to 30 minutes tops!!!" . And there's a certain irony in Yoda being taught how to ghost by a deceased Jedi spirit (Qui-Gon) who himself doesn't force-ghost. How long had Qui-Gon being dead/time since TPM passed that he learned this trick from a 'Shaman of the Whills'?

    To me, a much tidier solution would have been to say that Anakin had learned the ghosting technique sometime while training under Obi-Wan, just as Obi-Wan had learned it from Yoda. Of course, that would conflict with Vader's apparent lack of knowledge of Obi-Wan's power in SW, but then again the Father Vader ret-con wasn't exactly seamless.

    Speaking of Obi-Wan and Yoda being the only Jedi to learn the technique while still alive: does it strike you as a coincidence that they are also the only two Jedi that Lucas spared the Jedi Purge and thus allowed audiences to get to know over the course of the OT? In my opinion, there is a point where a story can have too many instances of serendipitous elements.

    The first appearance of Force Ghosting in the Saga: TESB. Even more significant, Lucas was going to have Annikin/Luke's father appear as a force-ghost along with Ben in the first draft of TESB.


    I said that the 'reasons' you gave for them helping Anakin were selfish, not that helping someone itself is selfish.



    But their involvement in assisting Luke is the very context in which them 'helping' Anakin force ghost first appears. I don't think it's a coincidence, though perhaps you do. And since you mention his 'earlier writings': Luke's father was going to appear as a force ghost in the first draft of TESB, without any explanation whereby Ben supposedly 'helps' him ghost (Yoda is of course, still alive in the story).
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 16, 2014
  2. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    I may just be remembering what a fan once said (maybe even on this board xD) but didn't an official say that the saga is now the story of the Skywalker family?
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    True. But that's only one film and beyond that, the whole thing starts to go in the other direction.


    Right, but we never saw the backstory of Vader separate from Anakin. We don't know what he was like other than someone who went bad. Vader lives at the end of ANH and the idea of redemption doesn't exist in that film alone. Vader doesn't even know what it was that Obi-wan did when he disappeared, hence stomping on the robe. The subject of redemption doesn't come up until ROTJ.

    Yoda cared for Anakin as evident by his willingness to talk to him about his problems, thirteen years after he said no to his training. Not to mention their adventures together during the Clone Wars.

    Qui-gon told Yoda that he wasn't good enough at the time of his death to maintain a corporeal form, but that he and Obi-wan can do so. Apparently, he was studying it prior to his death, but had yet to fully master it. Hence he doesn't disappear, but Yoda and Obi-wan do.

    No, because the intent was that there would be survivors at the outset of the Purge who tried to go into hiding, but were hunted down. That much was clear from the beginning of the Saga in 1974. That first draft has four Jedi hidden in two different locations and a Sith comes looking for the Starkillers, which kick started the story. Aside from General Skywalker, it was unclear how many other Jedi were left. Coming around to the final film, it is still unclear how many are left until ROTJ, when Yoda cements things which would allow Luke to be on his own.

    Right and as noted, Lucas abandoned those ideas since it wasn't working for him. Including the idea of multiple ghosts hidden in the Netherrealm of the Force and the idea in ROTJ, that said Jedi can return to life or move on into the afterlife.


    That they forgive him for his crimes is selfish? Gee, I always understood the notion that to forgive and not harbor a grudge was a good thing, not a bad one.

    What Leigh Brackett wrote in 1978 has no bearing on what Lucas decided upon in 1981.
  4. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    'Darth Vader' cut off Dooku's head? I don't think so......


    Ah, the Dual-Persona theory/get-out-of-jail-free card.....

    "Your honor, My client has DUAL-PERSONA syndrome!!!"



    Agree with the former, but not necessarily the latter.



    Couldn't disagree more. Personally, with ROTS I don't see the Vader character on display. I see a borderline insane Anakin, but still Anakin, gone dark. I don't see the Vader of the OT at all. You might have heard some fans refer to him in the last part of ROTS as 'Vaderkin'. There's a reason for that. He doesn't come across as "Vader" to those people (and myself included).
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 16, 2014
  5. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Probably on the boards. I know I've said that before anyway. Will be glad if it is. Yeah I like Anakin but Luke resonates with me more. Putting them as equals is fine by me with Luke's son/daughter/adopted child/apprentice/whatever on their way to keeping up the legacy.
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    :confused: Ahh.....EU.
  7. Kato Sai Jedi Grand Master

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    Anakin's Redemption is one of the best parts of the Star Wars canon. It is the fact that he begins in the light, leave the light, joins the darkness, lives in the darkness, and comes back to the light that makes his character compelling.
  8. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Um what?
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Exactly. ;)
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 16, 2014
  10. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Ok. Just throwing ideas out there because we don't know who will be the main star of the ST generation yet. Luke only had a son. None of the other options I listed.
  11. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    [face_laugh] Oh, ok. Got it.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 16, 2014
  12. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Right, but that doesn't mean that it had to necessarily go in that direction.


    Yes. In terms of the stand-alone first film, there is no redemption of Vader forthcoming. As far as never seeing the back-story of Vader separate from Anakin: I don't see the relevance of this to the argument unless one wants to argue that Vader in this scenario was a 'bad seed' from the beginning.....


    Read the bold part of my post. I wasn't saying that Yoda did NOT 'like' Anakin. Rather, I said that I would doubt that such 'liking' would have had more significance to him than Anakin saving Luke at the end ROTJ would.



    Hmm. Had Qui-Gon been able to Force Ghost, he could have possibly warned the Jedi of the evil things going on. How convenient for the story/drama that he doesn't ghost, but communicates to Yoda just enough and at the last minute-too-little-too-late-damage-already-done.o_O [face_not_talking] And keep in mind that this character didn't exist* back in '81 during the back-story discussions for ROTJ.

    *iow, Lucas wasn't 'constrained' by the OT to put this element in the back-story/PT, i.e. a Jedi learning the power but only half-way.


    But there's nothing about force-ghosting in those scenarios. And then when Lucas does come up with the concept, guess who are the only ones we see do it? Obi-Wan and Yoda. Then we're told years later that they were the ONLY Jedi to learn the trick while they were still living.


    And it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility that Lucas may have also (temporarily) abandoned the idea of Yoda and Ben 'teaching' or 'helping' Anakin to Force-ghost. But my point was that in those early TESB force-ghost scenarios, there was no mention of 'they had to learn it from so-and-so'.


    I was talking about the 'reasons' you gave:

    1. Obi-Wan taught Anakin
    2. Yoda liked Anakin up until he fell to the dark side



    Your right it doesn't. Having Yoda and Ben help Anakin force-ghost - something he decided in 1981 - is directly affected by the plot point where Yoda and Ben are trying to help Luke 'save' his father - also something that Lucas decided upon in 1981.

    And what Brackett wrote in 1978 does have a definite bearing on where Lucas' mind was at the time story-wise, since the ideas came from him.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 16, 2014
  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Part II:


    @Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    See, the 'certain point of view' thing I took as Lucas' wanting to have his cake-and-eat-it-too with the whole Father Vader ret-con: he liked the ret-con, but he may have still liked the preceding storyline from the first film, so he wanted Obi-Wan to still be 'right' on some level.

    In my opinion, there are hints from the OT and especially the back-ground contextual info from ROTJ that Lucas viewed Anakin's transformation into Vader significantly different from what he ended up doing in the PT. The PT perhaps 'changing it back to a black-and-white view' and perhaps showing how Lucas always approached it, in my opinion, would be an instance of the Vader-killed-Annikin pre-Father Vader plot element 'subconsciously' creeping back into the story.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 16, 2014
  14. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I meant that I appreciated that 'moral of the story' in a more general sense; that the way we approach things, our own views and interpretations, define what we consider 'truths' (which sometimes *feel* more objective, which is why this is an important thing to remember). Ironic that Kenobi mentions this in a conversation that also seems to suggest that he's not willing to maintain that kind of distance from his own surety that the good in Anakin is lost forever.

    It does seem like maybe there were differences between the OT (ESB/ROTJ mainly) and PT conceptions of how Anakin fell. I doubt Lucas saw Anakin's turn as a 'for love' kind of thing at the time of ROTJ. But there are places in the old notes where things that seem like later glosses and additions do appear - like part of a 'chosen one' concept, or the dark side as a kind of possession.

    Speaking only for myself... it's perhaps more that the explanations for the Force and the various things that are done with it seem overly complicated and contrived, even though some of them do apparently go back all the way to the beginning, or at least to ROTJ. For example, the notion of how the Force worked that seems to have been picked up in the 80s-90s EU was more like, when you die, you fade into the Force. If you're sufficiently wise/attuned, you can be a ghost, but that also means that you won't be able to affect the 'real world' physically. Dark siders are all about control and physical power, so they bind their spirits to physical objects, attempt to jump from body to body, and pretty much do anything possible to stay in the physical realm. This explanation is simple and thematically matches what some (including me) thought SW was trying to go for.

    Some might raise the objection, "what, then, was Vader doing when he stomped on Ben's robe, and why did Ben say that he'd become more powerful than Vader could imagine?" Seems to me that the former could be Vader simply making sure Ben had really vanished and wasn't playing a mind trick or anything else, while the latter could be a reference to Ben thinking Vader is misguided, that he doesn't truly understand the Force (which could tie into that different above view of how life-after-death COULD be handled). If one can accept "the Jedi master who instructed me" really means "a Jedi master who taught me when I was a little kid, while I later spent much more time with someone else on more focused lessons," or even that Vader killed Anakin "from a certain point of view," then one should have no problem with this either.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I never said that it had to go that way. Just that's the way it went.

    You're the one who brought it up, not me. I was talking about the finished films and you started in about how it was originally in the 70's.

    I never said it had more significance. I said it was a reason.

    Yoda didn't know it was possible to commune with the dead until Anakin went on his rampage in AOTC. It was in that moment when he feels Anakin's pain that he hears Qui-gon speaking for the first time and that ultimately leads to his learning to commune with him. As to what Qui-gon did or didn't see, there's no evidence that he was better able to see Anakin's destiny, much less who Darth Sidious was than anyone else. The whole origin was something that Lucas wanted to touch upon in the PT, which is why he revisited the idea of the ability being taught from the revised rough draft of ROTJ. Not to mention he saw that Vader didn't know which also needed to be addressed.


    So what's your point?


    Each time Lucas sat down to write one of these films, he added newer ideas that came to mind. Lucas didn't have much involvement in the Brackett draft, since he was trying to be hands off or whatever his reasoning was. Then he got involved and didn't want to deal with it in TESB, but when ROTJ came around, he choose to do so.


    What's your point? How is any of that selfish?


    Which are two separate things. Luke faces his challenge on his own and succeeds. Something decided some time in 1982 and finalized by the time cameras rolled. The notion of revisiting the Jedi spirits helping Anakin was confirmed as happening with ROTS, but may not have been completely abandoned by Lucas himself, once Kazanjian convinced Lucas to go ahead and do it in early 1983, after the idea was abandoned in 82.


    And Lucas changes his mind. Something that has never really been denied.

    The writers were only going off of what Lucasfilm had made available to them. And considering how Lucas kept a lot of things to himself until he was ready to turn it over for publication, it's understandable that there would be contradictions. Fortunately there was enough openings for retcons to get around those issues. Such as in "Jedi Apprentice: The Call To Vengeance" having Qui-gon hearing Tahl and not realizing that it could be possible to commune with the dead, thus setting the stage for his encounter with the Shaman of the Whills and his own subsequent fate. Not to mention the lack of ghosts in the PT era fiction, with TOTJ and KOTOR and the Bane stories being the last known encounters. Thus making it a lost art.
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  16. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I don't know how much of the ghosting thing Lucas had figured out at the time of the OT - it seems to have been a late addition, dropped in specifically so that Ben Kenobi could come back from the dead once the decision was made to kill him off in Star Wars. The mechanics of what exactly Force ghosts could do seem to have fluctuated throughout the rest of the OT (the drafts are mainly where any information is given anyway). But by the time of ROTJ Lucas did seem to have the notion of the dead going to a kind of netherworld, from which they could appear as ghosts but only for a limited time (before coming back to the land of the living or disappearing forever, depending on which version it is), and that Ben and Yoda helped Anakin become a ghost (though I think it's unknown if it was supposed to be a specific skill, and whether it would then be a Jedi skill, or if it was simply that Anakin needed to accept the light side - or something like that - and they helped him do that). Who knows when he set it all 'in stone' - it could have been during the making of TPM.

    But all of that is kind of irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, which is that the one version seems more elegant and thematically resonant (to me), while the other - even though it may well be the older, 'always-intended' version - seems over-complicated (etc.). It's just an opinion, but I offer it as a means of explaining how I relate to TOSCHE's comment about 'ad hoc' (or post hoc) explanations. The explanations may in fact be older, but that doesn't necessarily make them feel elegant to every viewer.

    Now, it may be more thematically resonant to me because it's my own reading of what's going on (duh). It can feel like watching over someone's shoulder as they play cards, as they miss opportunities to pull off certain things. Of course, it could be (and probably is) that I was mistaken on what SW was trying to do, in certain respects.

    By the way, for prequel or Rebellion era (EU) ghosts, see Qu Rahn and Nejaa Halcyon.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, May 17, 2014
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  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The thing with Nejaa is that it was from before the PT came out, back when it was still considered common for every Jedi. While Qu Rahn learned that Yoda was alive on Dagobah and visited him where he learned how to retain his identity. Whereas Nejaa's situation was never followed up on and clarified how he did it.

    I don't see how it being a skill that is taught makes it less elegant. I would argue that it doesn't seem that way since before the PT, all you had were your assumptions.
  18. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    That was my point; I thought you were saying that there were no examples of PT-era ghosts written before the prequels came out, not that the examples could be retconned.

    You don't have to share my opinion, so I'm not saying it IS less elegant, just that it feels that way to me. I could probably go on a long tangent about why, but I'll try to make it short...

    If:
    -We are all part of the Force ('luminous beings are we'), which is an energy field seemingly not bound by space and time
    -Some people crave power over the physical world while others are content to 'go with the flow'

    Then, for me, it makes sense (in terms of storytelling) for the afterlife to be an opt-out system rather than an opt-in system. The dark siders would try to hold on to their physicality, preventing their transition - but only for a time (you can only resist for so long - you, even as a powerful dark spirit tied to a temple, are a mortal mind; the Force has eons to convince you) - into the more transcendent, but physically impotent, ghost form. Everyone else becomes part of that ghostly afterlife. Perhaps there is skill involved in appearing in specific times or places, but the baseline is ghostly behind-the-scenes.

    Also, if the skill to become a ghost is premised on compassion/no-self of the sort that monks practice, then (a) why do the Jedi not already know this, as it is a mindset that many on earth have already figured out/been working on, and (b) shouldn't there be a lot of ghosts in the SW galaxy, since there are lots more people, who live in cultures, some of which presumably have stumbled across these ideas the way earth humans have?

    (I have some other thoughts too, but they're not really put into words yet.)
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, May 17, 2014
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  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The Jedi don't know because as Palpatine said, they have a narrow view of the Force. They are unwilling to embrace a larger view. Now, while he is talking about the dark side, he also has a point in that the Jedi stopped learning all there is to learn. This is demonstrated in the conversation that Yoda had with Qui-gon, when he says that there was more to learn and he realizes that now. Not to mention what was shown in the final episodes of TCW, where Yoda goes on his sojourn and finds that he had more to learn from the Priestesses. In "Destiny", he is confronted by an avatar of darkness that represents his fear. Yoda claimed that he abandoned said fear long ago, but comes to realize that it is still there and still part of him. That he must be ever vigilant of it.

    This lack of knowledge, of self discovery is why the Jedi stagnated and were nearly destroyed as they were.
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  20. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    ^^^^This.

    To highlight:

    " though I think it's unknown if it was supposed to be a specific skill, and whether it would then be a Jedi skill, or if it was simply that Anakin needed to accept the light side - or something like that - and they helped him do that . "

    I think that the last part - "it was simply that Anakin needed to accept the light side" - is the reason why.


    Yes. Though some of those ideas might not even be of 'older' vintage. But I think you're touching upon something that I've vaguely noticed since the Rinzler "Making of books" have come out: in writing/creating the PT, Lucas didn't so much as go strictly* by what he put ON-SCREEN in the OT, as much as he searched his old notes from the OT era for ideas that he had tossed to the side for that trilogy.

    *despite what he said about sitting down some time in '94 or '95 and watching the entire OT movies.


    edit to add:

    Same goes with me.


    "Why do the Jedi not already know this" is a BIG red-flag, for me. But what I think is partly to 'blame' for this dissonant aspect, has to do with the story 'focus' of the Star Wars saga, something that you alluded to some months ago (maybe last year?). With the PT, judging by things Lucas says along with the films themselves, what we see in the films are primarily the 'Main Stage' for that fictional story 'universe'; whatever significant events that take place in the history of that universe, they take places IN THOSE FILMS and nowhere else. Thus, you have a Jedi or group of Jedi from the time-line of the movies - or in the case of Qui-Gon - 'discovering' an important aspect of the Jedi mythos in the course of the (PT) films, and not say, some time 'long ago, in the mists of the past'. To me, this could only be topped by say, having the Jedi go back guarding the Republic 'for over a thousand generations' like they do now, except that someone in the films 'discovers' THE FORCE only last week (figuratively speaking). Talk about 'last-Thursday-ism'..........


    The way to 'address' that would have been to say that Vader was never told by Obi-Wan back when he (Vader) was a Jedi pupil, instead of saying that NO Jedi knew how to do it, or making the Jedi into a bunch of Ralph Hinckley's from "Greatest American Hero" who didn't get the memo on how to fly.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, May 18, 2014
  21. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

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    Maybe Anakin isn't yet redeemed.

    In Christian mythology, God is so strictly Just, that He must destroy any maker of sin (injustice) for the sake of His creation. The problem is that He loves mankind (makers of sin) very much and does not wish to destroy them. But He must destroy them by His just nature unless someone pays the debt for their sins. So He comes to earth in human form and pays the debt Himself, leaving behind a mechanism by which mankind can progress towards overcoming sin. So in Christianity, redemption is achieved through that mechanism: accepting the human form of God (Jesus) as the ultimate authority and thus destroying one's will to continue sinning.

    The Star Wars version of God is the Light Side of the Force. It has no personified figure to Anakin, except for maybe Luke. For Anakin to be redeemed, I would think he would have to accept a personified figure as his ruler who pays for the damage he caused. It would be VERY interesting if Luke undergoes a kind of Jesus Crucifixion story in the ST. For the last thirty years, he has been gaining disciples to begin the New Religion (new Jedi order). It is discovered that he is the son of Vader, and is persecuted for it. All the resentment people had for Vader and the damaged he caused is now aimed directly at Luke. Only after Luke undergoes this persecution and conquers it, can Anakin truly be redeemed. Or something like that.
    Last edited by Darth_Articulate, May 18, 2014
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Lucas doesn't follow one religion strictly. He used all the various types and cherry picked certain ideas. He also looked to the myths and legends and saw a theme regarding redemption.

    "And obviously there are two sides to the redeemer motif in the Star Wars films. Ultimately Vader is redeemed by his children and especially by having children. Because that's what life is all about—procreating and raising children, and it should bring out the best of you."

    --George Lucas


    "You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the dark side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, “I know there’s still good in you, I can sense it.” Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself."

    --George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005


    It falls to Luke to restore the Skywalker name and the reputation of the Jedi Order, by rebuilding it. But he wouldn't hide the fact that his father went rogue and betrayed everyone. He is the example of what not to become when having attachments and facing their inner self.
  23. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I can see how it is semi-present in the films. I guess it just seems like something as major as changing the definition of what a Jedi is, or what one believes, could have been depicted/called out in a clearer way within the narrative of the films. In the OT there was never any hint that the Jedi were anything other than what Yoda teaches Luke, and in the prequels, there are lines alluding to the Jedi becoming stagnant, as well as one throwaway bit talking about the ghosts, but little screentime - or perhaps, comparatively little focus, I think - is spent on these themes (which could be very interesting - from my perspective).

    It can even be hard to tell exactly how much the Jedi are intended to have changed over the films - Ben still doesn't seem to really support Luke's ultimate act of compassion (trying to turn Vader back rather than simply defeating him), and it's hard to tell what Yoda thinks of this either. Yoda essentially taught Luke (via the cave) that sometimes you have to make yourself physically weaker in order to prevail ("your weapons - you will not need them"), but Luke's mission to essentially do just that doesn't seem to be their intention for him.

    The Yoda episodes have added a bit to the arc here, but that leads back to my questions of why the Jedi didn't already know this. I'm not looking here for an in-universe answer - that, I admit, does make some sense. I'm talking about storytelling and relationships to real life. In real life, the kind of compassion they talk about is a part of philosophical systems like Zen Buddhism. If some earth humans have it figured out, then there must be many more in the SW galaxy. How/why could it be forgotten or missed by the Jedi? From a storytelling POV, it's weird to see the Jedi lacking in this kind of knowledge, when they seemed to be presented as exemplars of this kind of thinking (at least partially) in the OT. Luke's 'Jedi' training consisted entirely of the kind of things that are presented now, in TCW, not as Jedi skills but as the things that lead to the kind of character needed for ghosting. It could be that they are changing the definition of what a Jedi is (Qui-Gon's conflict with the Jedi proper fitting into this, though, why didn't he ever tell anyone about this power before he died - did he think they wouldn't be interested?), but like I said, this probably could have been a bit clearer if so. Maybe it works perfectly for you, and logically I can see kind of how the story progresses, but from the beginning I said I am only talking about my opinion, about the feel and appeal of the media to me.

    Interesting point. If the things like 'Luke as chosen one' are indeed vintage quotes from the 70s/80s (as in MoESB), then going back to earlier notes does seem like it played a large part in crafting the PT. And it is interesting how some of those elements do seem to conflict with what was eventually put into the 'final' versions. Good speculation on why things may not always match up, there.


    Yeah, it does bug me a little how the OT feels like a personal and political struggle set on a grand stage, while the PT introduces cosmic danger (the Force goes out of balance - does this lead, if left to keep going, to darkness forever?), the cosmos both caring and taking an active hand in the affairs of mortals, and, as you point out, the discovery of the afterlife (surely a huge event for sapientkind). Now, Lucas may have always conceptualized the saga in this 'the universe is in danger' sort of way, and even if not, he can add whatever he wants as he goes along. But I personally am far more invested in personal and political and philosophical stories against the background of a more stable cosmos. That's just me. No one else has to feel that way; it's just what interests me. The SW (including the EU) leading up to 1999 felt like it was more in those lines than what SW has become since then, and that affects the appeal. To me.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, May 18, 2014
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  24. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I shall maintain that all are redeemable whether sapient/human character or person. I am not Judge and live in hope. I am glad that love granted Anakin redemption because it personifies forgiveness and mercy. RotJ's ending (unaltered) is the perfect counterpoint to the selfishness, possessive blindness, and violence of Anakin in the PT.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, May 18, 2014
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Dave Filoni said that Lucas had once told him that Yoda and Obi-wan both wanted Luke to bring Anakin back, but didn't want to order him to do it. But for Luke to figure it out for himself. Which if that is indeed the case, it makes Luke's failure at the cave more pertinent because he fights when he needs to not fight. Ultimately, he tosses his saber away and tells Palpatine to take a long walk off a short pier. It is that act that starts Vader's redemption. By fighting, Luke is giving into the dark side and that is why he failed.

    In certain terms, it represents what happens when we stop seeking knowledge. Mankind always strives, or at least should always strive to become more enlightened and wiser than we are now. If we stop seeking out knowledge, then we can never truly evolve. I do agree that it could be a bit more clear, which was the point in the Yoda and Qui-gon scene, but unfortunately, Lucas dropped it. The one deleted scene I still to this day contest.

    Interesting point. If the things like 'Luke as chosen one' are indeed vintage quotes from the 70s/80s (as in MoESB), then going back to earlier notes does seem like it played a large part in crafting the PT. And it is interesting how some of those elements do seem to conflict with what was eventually put into the 'final' versions. Good speculation on why things may not always match up, there.[/quote]

    Lucas did look to his films, but he wasn't going to just limit himself to them. Hence he went back to the well for various ideas. Something that's been apparent, maybe not to everyone, but for those who have followed the BTS, it's been there. For myself, it is one of the reasons I have referred to the older drafts since I've started posting here. But in terms of matching up, it would be odd to have added all these Jedi to TESB and ROTJ, when there's no room for them. I've seen fan edits that added Qui-gon and Mace and others, which was fine but when you look at it, doesn't work. In going back to telling the story about ghosts, Lucas kept it simple so that he wouldn't have to go in and redo the films for that.
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