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Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Jun 8, 2006
    Simple? He hardly gave us anything on the FG in the films lack of explanation doesn't equal simple.
  2. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011

    Not to sound like an idiot, but what does FG stand for? (I'm sure it's something quite obvious but I can't figure it out at the moment.)
  3. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Sep 2, 2012
    Force Ghost I'm assuming.
    Cushing's Admirer and PiettsHat like this.
  4. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Jun 8, 2006
    Yes it is Force Ghost.
  5. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 23, 1999
    The latter stuff is what I said/I agree with. And while Lucas may have been direct with Filoni, it's considerably less clear in the film. That's fine, but there is a difference.

    I think it could have been made more clear by depicting the Jedi in ways that emphasize martial aspects over spiritual ones. Yoda, from the perspective of an audience that has only seen the OT, is seen as the embodiment of Eastern/Jedi mystic wisdom. If you want the audience to then reorient and see him clearly as anything else, maybe show him differently. I always thought 'wars not make one great' was traditional Jedi wisdom, not firsthand experiential knowledge (and that's the way that line was apparently originally intended, but I digress). Even in the PT, the Jedi look like, and even often sound like, hippies/salt-of-the-land people who would be spouting that kind of wisdom. Their look and feel suggests something to the audience about which aspects of the Jedi 'character' will be emphasized. If we want the audience to immediately realize that there is something missing from these Jedis' spiritual lives, we need to do things that will get the audience on that same page. "Show, don't tell?" Show, and tell.

    If Yoda (for example) is supposed to be a hierarchical warrior character more than a mystic in the prequels, maybe it would have been a good idea to use the more Madmartigan-ish look that was contemplated during the development of TPM. Have all the Jedi wear that kind of clothing - something closer to what Luke wore in ROTJ - except perhaps Qui-Gon. Have the Jedi - again, except Qui-Gon - say things that sound clearly wrong/in conflict with 'Jedi' wisdom as we know it from ESB/ROTJ. Perhaps have Qui-Gon quote ancient Jedi wisdom that is more spiritual, but have the others shush him, as if that old junk is no longer relevant. Make a bigger deal of Jedi having differences with the martial Order - Dooku could have been a good example of this. And at the end, have a clear mention by Yoda and Ben that when they train Luke and Leia, they are intentionally going to do it differently - either in a 'new' way, or, if you had Qui-Gon quote ancient philosophies (that would be what we'd know from the OT), in the oldest way.

    In other words, use everything in your storytelling toolkit to make sure the audience knows that the Jedi you're showing now are not the same Jedi they saw before, and that this story is going to tell how they got from point A to point B. And that either they have forgotten how to become ghosts, or that they never knew until now (ghosting being an important image/aspect of defining what a Jedi is and how they relate to the universe/the Force, from the POV of a viewer coming to the PT from the OT/general pop culture). As it is, it feels kinda muddled to me (and apparently to lots of others). Some of this stuff is present in the PT as it is, but I think those tweaks would have really made it much more clear to the audience what is going on.

    That is, IF the intention was to depict a revolution in the definition of 'Jedi.' Obviously I'm still not quite sure.

    Which additional Jedi would you have to show in ESB and ROTJ? I don't think that's what was meant by 'matching up'... (I meant things like Owen being Obi-Wan's brother, something that was in the script and backstory to ROTJ but was later changed. Maybe it was a simple 'story fix' that Lucas threw into the explanation for ROTJ at the time, but he didn't really like it... maybe it was just convenient... so when he went back to make the PT, he changed it to something he liked better. Same with Yoda being Obi-Wan's master, etc. Those little inconsistencies that are all/can be retconned away, but if looked at at face value are differences between the older and newer versions).
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 17, 2003
    It's funny Lucas says this (only now, of course) because TESB and ROTJ gave no indication of any sort that they wanted Luke to do this.......unless wanting Luke to "bring back Anakin" is that bizarre Darth Vader-as-demon-possession interpretation whereby if Vader dies, then automatically Anakin's good spirit-self is released and able to Force ghost/go to "Jedi Heaven".

    ^^^This. The "Show, don't tell?"....Show AND tell bit is quite pertinent in any discussion of the PT that we have.

    Yeah, the whole "they never knew until NOW" thing is an example of the whole "last Thursday-ism" element I was talking about, which while definitely strange, seems to fit the general "shrinking universe" trend in the Star Wars saga.

    The problem is when what he "liked better" didn't match up with what's already been established on-screen with the previous films (or with the ancillary canon material from the time).
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    More like they wanted Luke to figure it out for himself. Simply giving him instructions to kill his father would result in his telling them to go jump in the bog. But presenting the idea that they don't believe he can be saved, would drive Luke to prove them wrong. Especially when his feelings tell him that there is hope for him and thus he wants to save him. In other words, they subtly encourage him to trust his feelings.

    "The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars-A New Hope: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997

    "What Luke is doing in the beginning of Star Wars is finding his own responsibility for his place in the world. He thinks that his responsibility is with his aunt and uncle, and to do his chores. His ultimate responsibility is much larger than that because it deals with a much larger base of humanity—larger more cosmic issues. He is unwilling to look up and see those as something that relate to him. He’s much more looking at the ground and plodding along in his everyday life. So it’s that awakening, first of all, that is the performed by the insider, the magic of Obi-Wan that sends him on the path to self-discovery."

    --George Lucas, Laserdisc Commentary, Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection, 1993.

    "Ultimately the Force is the larger mystery of the universe. And to trust your feelings is your way into that. It is an issue of quieting your mind so that you can listen to yourself, and as Joe [Campbell] would say, “Follow your bliss.” It’s to follow your talent, is one way to put it. That’s the way I see it. The hardest thing to do when you are young is to figure out what it is you’re going to do, and you’ll never know what it is you’re going to do. "
    -George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001
    Iron_lord likes this.

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 17, 2003
    It's more parsimonious to take the films as presented, as showing what Yoda and Obi-Wan actually believe* , and not as some sort of reverse-psychology ploy on Luke to do the opposite. Your subtext is an addition to the films.

    * That he can't be saved.
  9. chris skywalker

    chris skywalker Jedi Youngling

    Jun 3, 2014
    sorry but you want darth vader to not do somethingthat is in darth vaders dark character...that makes sense :p

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 17, 2003

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 17, 2003
    chris skywalker,

    Are you responding to me, or to darth-sinister?
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 10, 2011

    Did Filoni really say Lucas told him that? I remember Filoni putting forth that interpretation as his own opinion, but I don't recall him ever attributing it to Lucas.
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm just repeating what someone else said on the subject.
  14. deadly jp

    deadly jp Jedi Knight star 1

    Jul 27, 2014
    Anakin is the chosrn one so yes he should be redeemed
  15. SavedByChristAlone

    SavedByChristAlone Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 26, 2017
    Uuummmmmm, guys?

    If you think that redemption and forgiveness are about what's deserved, I'm not sure that you understand the concepts very well. As always, my thinking on this subject requires a bit of background explanation, but I'm a Christian, so I believe in the undeserved, complete, and freely given redemption offered by God in Christ. In this context, redemption means 'brought back from sin and sinful nature'. In Christianity all the work of justification is done by God, and all man must do is come to Him with sincere repentance and penitence. This particular stage of salvation (yes, there are stages of salvation, at least in Protestant and Catholic understanding) is completed by God alone - monergistic and totally unearned by man. It's accepted by man, but not bought or earned by him.

    Star Wars, of course, doesn't have a Christian deity around. Here, redemption - the return from the Dark Side - is completed under Anakin's own steam, but inspired by concern for Luke and Luke's example of turning away from the Dark Side when he saw Vader's severed hand. It is made by repentance, which literally means 'an afterthought', as in 'what you came to believe later', i.e. a change of mind. His mindset is changed, partly because Luke loves him, and partly because Vader made the decision to love Luke and put Luke before himself. Redemption, in this context, is not a prize to earn or to be deserved. It's a process. And it's a process that I'm very glad they decided to show. Sure, people these days think that Dark and Edgy is good, but it's not good if you have to live it.

    And as for forgiveness, it's not forgetting what someone did to you, or to others. It's not making light of the pain that they caused. It's about saying 'I'm not going to stay in pain and bitterness against this person, because that damages them, and it damages me.'

    But wait, you cry? Where's the justice? What about what Anakin deserved for killing all those younglings and enslaving the galaxy for 20 years?

    Well, folks, in my book, justice isn't always about what's deserved. It's about what's right by definition in this situation. And neither redemption nor forgiveness is about what is deserved by somebody else, it's about what you can give to others, and about moving past your own pain, guilt, and problems. Two sides of the same value.

    And whilst no one can be or should be forced to forgive anyone - that's a contradiction in terms - or accept anyone back who has hurt them, when someone is redeemed, it's healthier, at least in principle, to welcome them back into the fold. If one doesn't, one cuts oneself off from a potential valuable friend, and also cuts oneself off from the fruits of the other's redemption.

    And accepting the forgiveness of another, if one is the wronging party, is paramount. Saying 'no' to forgiveness just because of some misplaced sense of pride or justice because 'I don't deserve to be forgiven!' is harmful, because it cuts them off from the fruit of forgiveness.

    So yes. I'm glad Anakin was redeemed, and that Luke forgave everything. It's what made me love the Saga.
    Dandelo, ATMachine and Sarge like this.