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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    People are obsessed with children, that's why.
     
  2. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    But there were children on Alderaan too! Millions more of civilian children...

    It just doesn't make sense to me at all.

    Do people not count Alderaan because Vader wasn't the one to initiate its destruction or order it? Because even so, he was so highly ranked and openly participated in Leia's intimidation. To me, it's just baffling.
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Especially since Vader, though ordered to obey Tarkin, is also Tarkin's "watchdog"- there to make sure he doesn't go against the Emperor's wishes.
     
  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    @ Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
    It does make a difference because when we like and know someone (even a fictional character) we tend to make up excuses, even for the inexcusable.

    Vader probably killed billions, but Alderaan was not his idea. If you recall, Vader wasn't enamored with the concept of a death star from the beginning. You can still blame him for simply standing by, though.

    Btw., I agree that Alderaans destruction was idiotic. People had to revolt after that.
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There's an interesting discussion of the subject in The Essential Guide to Warfare Endnotes:

    http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/24881617404/eg-to-warfare-endnotes-pt-11

    Tarkin burns to be Emperor, and the meeting he’s convened comes very, very close to being a gathering of coup plotters. Motti is all but drunk with power, Tagge’s doubts stem more from logistics than loyalty, and the others are either aides or non-entities. (Well, there’s Yularen, but in 1977 he was just the guy in white.) The Death Star is now operational, and the Senate is gone, removing a check on the power of governors such as Tarkin. (The radio drama, indeed, has Motti urging Tarkin to supplant the Emperor.)

    So there’s Tarkin, a proud son of the backwater world of Eriadu, in control of “the ultimate power in the universe.” What does he do with that power? He doesn’t destroy what he thinks is the headquarters of the Rebel base. Instead, he incinerates a major Core world. On whose orders? And if Tarkin hadn’t been distracted by infiltrators carrying the plans for the Death Star, where would he have taken his battle station next? My guess is Coruscant, for a showdown with Palpatine.
     
  6. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I've been thinking about that possibility as well sometimes but over the years I've come to the opinion that Tarkin is simply a crazy imperial loyalist.

    I doubt Palpatine would chose someone who hasn't proven his loyalty as commander of the death star. Sending Vader as watchdog is fine, but even Vader couldn't survive against a whole death star of troops should Tarkin try to take over. Vader was probably there to watch fools like Motti who could try to assassinate Tarkin and take over themselves.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    True. And in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, he's fairly casual about the destruction of Alderaan- though he does recommend that Tarkin inform the Emperor first (Tarkin shoots the idea down).

    The thought going through his head at that moment, looking at Leia, is "You brought this on yourself."
     
  8. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Vader probably thought of it as opportunity. If Tarkin and other important imperials make fools of themselves by strengthening the rebellion he gets to shine more in comparison.

    A cold and ruthless guy, this Vader.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Of course, when it comes to "strengthening the Rebellion" Vader is hardly one to talk- in The Force Unleashed, he basically arranged the bringing of the factions together.
     
  10. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 30, 2005
    No, because I first balked at Vader's redemption in the 90s, around the time I hit adolescence. The image of a smiling Sebastian Shaw was just one of those slices of cinema, like the lobby massacre in The Matrix, that struck me as morally repugnant.

    And by the way, I didn't need ROTS to inform me that Vader personally murdered children; the prospect was implicit, judging by Vader's ruthlessness in ANH and TESB.
     
  11. anakin_skywalker_sct

    anakin_skywalker_sct Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 18, 2001
    No. That's not what I said or what I meant. Mace Windu wasn't just 'not deferential' to Anakin, he was consistently hostile and frequently belittled him and his feelings. And Windu isn't the sole reason for the Jedi Order being a mess, but it's reasonable that its defacto leader be the scape goat for it. That's what leaders are for.

    There's grey and then there's an inconsistent blob. The PT seems confused about what it is trying to say much of the time.
     
  12. Ingram_I

    Ingram_I Force Ghost star 5

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Doesn't he yell at Anakin to let her go? Besides, Obi-Wan wasn't there to reason with Anakin, which is part of a larger point.
    That's not what happens in the film.
     
  13. Reveen

    Reveen Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 4, 2012
    And then he left her on a open metal landing bay that must've been 50 celsius at the very least, to be brought onto the ship by a robot that can't even bend down, let alone carry people.

    Edit: Wait, what? He wasn't there to reason with him? That's not exactly an ironclad excuse, if a bunch of terrorists start killing hostages, I don't think SWAT get's to say, "We'll so-reeeee! We ain't here to negotiate hostage releases!"
     
  14. Ingram_I

    Ingram_I Force Ghost star 5

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    Sep 7, 2012
    The landing bay was shielded from beneath, like everything else, which is why none of them were cooked alive by standing there in the first place. If you still don’t accept this logic, that’s fine, but at least be consistent by applying the criticism to the entire premise of a habitable lava planet as depicted here. Anyway, Obi-Wan did check her pulse to see if she was still alive. He was kinda…preoccupied at the moment to start moving her around. Threepio got the job done regardless, so, it’s not a big deal by itself.
    It's not supposed to be an excuse at all.
     
  15. anakin_skywalker_sct

    anakin_skywalker_sct Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 18, 2001
    Well, he yells, but he still just sort of stands there, and my point was that he offered no refutation or explanation. He's watching Anakin put two and two together and come up with five, and makes no effort to correct him for Padme's sake.

    Yes it is.
     
  16. Ingram_I

    Ingram_I Force Ghost star 5

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    Sep 7, 2012
    That makes enough sense, but he probably didn’t anticipate Anakin violently lashing out at Padme. And when Anakin did, Obi-Wan literally engaged the situation. But my larger point here is that, morally and philosophically, Obi-Wan’s overall approach to the conflict with Anakin was not entirely sound, and that such was the intent in terms of storytelling.
    Please explain the factors from which you draw this conclusion. Because nothing I saw in the film indicated such a claim.
     
  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    It's funny how back in the 90s Anakin claimed that he unintentionally strengthened the Rebellion.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Indeed- the line from The Truce at Bakura does synergize well with The Force Unleashed.
     
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Did you mean to say "does not synergize well"?
     
  20. anakin_skywalker_sct

    anakin_skywalker_sct Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 18, 2001


    There's not entirely sound and there's letting a maniac think you slept with his wife and offering no rebuttal. Obi-Wan was pretty daft here. I can't help but think it is generous to assume that this was intentional on the part of Lucas' writing. Perhaps Obi-Wan was just shattered by finding out what Anakin had done, and witnessing him attack Padme of all people was the final straw that turned him numb and made him give up reasoning with Anakin. I think a case can be made for that, but I do not see it coming across in the writing or the acting. I never was a big fan of the confrontation between Anakin and Obi-Wan, it always felt like something was missing.

    I can't explain it better than looking at the film and watching her die immediately after giving birth, mewling for her husband, handing her babies to Obi-Wan, as the medical droids performing her quasi c-section pseudo vaginal delivery remark that there is nothing physically wrong with her but she is just dying for no reason.

    You can argue I am being somewhat harsh in how I characterise this scene, but to say Padme just giving up on living doesn't happen in the film is simply not true.
     
  21. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Anakin wasn't redeemed in the eyes of Leia....
    EU wise yes, movies no.
     
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  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    What he intended to do in TFU was destroy a whole bunch of separate, minor rebellions. What he actually did, unintentionally, was strengthen them instead.
     
  23. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    "A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It is not a choice; it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force. To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die; but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply be empty, a wound." - Master Zez-Kai Ell
     
  24. Ingram_I

    Ingram_I Force Ghost star 5

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    Sep 7, 2012
    I think maybe you’re projecting a little too absolutely into the motivation of the characters potential conflicts intended more for audiences to merely entertain. It’s not a given than Anakin suspected flat-out adultery between Padme and Obi-Wan. That was certainly never my take, anyways. I saw something far simpler, in that the two people he cared about the most, whom he trusted the most, had conspired to take sides against him. Anakin never says, "You screwed my wife!" but, "You turned her against me!" The whole scene plays out pretty straightforward in that sense, albeit closer in service to theatricality -- Obi-Wan appearing at the top of the platform only when most dramatic -- which is fine with me. But the fact that Obi-Wan doesn’t come out of the ship right away pleading peace and diplomacy with the primary intent to neutralize the situation is very much part of a larger thematic through-line, one that was established all the way back in Episode VI, at least, before beginning its main trajectory from Episode I and continuing onward; and certainly one that was given all but capital letters the moment Yoda tasks Obi-Wan with the mission to kill Darth Vader. That being said, he does proceed to rebuke Anakin’s ravings with some degree of an attempt to reason, but not much. Later in the fight, he even admits his own perceived failure as Anakin’s mentor. Obi-Wan was an all-around good guy, but also caught-up in a larger orthodox mentality that, by this point, near the end of the PT, was no doubt written to be questioned: the line, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," couldn’t have been any more suspect if it were telegraphed as a neon sign.

    Maybe the execution of the scene lacked a certain finesse that you desired. Okay. Fair enough. For me, however, it was more or less the same B-movie drama that has since defined everything else in the saga. I thought it worked.
    It’s ironic that you referenced that line for your argument, as I was intending to do the same. It would have been simple enough for Lucas to script 'childbirth' and/or 'wounded by Anakin' as Padme’s cause of death, yet the scene clearly goes out of its way to present her demise as an unexplained phenomenon, thus engaging audiences with the question as to why she dies. And your answer is: She just gave up because she was all-of-the-sudden uncharacteristically lame. That’s more than a harsh judgment; it’s a poor interpretation. It’s taking the narrative so literally that you might as well conclude that Vader dies at the end of the saga simply because he was electrocuted. The fact that Padme dies without explanation does not automatically equate the explanation that she simply gave up. And yet this is your line of reasoning, even when you yourself recognize its contradiction amidst the larger arc of the character. Star Wars is opera. Space opera. It’s big stuff. Big ideas. Grand lyrical gestures. It’s not the kind of movie you assess like a tax audit.

    Luke has a vision in the cave on Dagobah where he sees his own face beneath the mask of Vader. He brings this vision with him, as Yoda hints; his fears and weaknesses. He sees what he might become if he chooses a darker path. Ultimately, after some temporary defeat and lasting struggle, Luke ends up choosing the better path concerning his conflict with Vader. In the PT Anakin has a vision of Padme’s death. As with Luke, he is not simply seeing the future, but one possible fate. More importantly, what Anakin envisions is a result of what he carries with him, emotionally and psychologically. His fears are giving way to the Dark Side; the Dark Side manifesting in his nightmares; his nightmares fueling his fears; his fears driving his actions. A vicious cycle that is part conscious but mostly subconscious. What eventually happens to Anakin can, in part, be described as self-induced fatalism. The twist here is that Padme becomes a part of this fate. A victim. This all sounds silly in the real world but in Star Wars (mythology—metaphors galore) we’re dealing with a clearly established story element of metaphysical forces: the Force. It can be said that Padme is linked with Anakin on a metaphysical level; through their shared intimate feelings, sure, but also quite literally via the twins she carries inside her. Through operatic tragedy, these separate entities all at once must go their separate ways: Anakin to the Dark Side, fully, becoming mechanical Vader; the new hope(s) coming into the world, representing the Light Side (and then away from each other to separate planets); Padme, sadly, left with no other direction than death itself.

    Am I just waxing poetic here? Yeah, sorta, but not just. What I’m really doing is adding up the factors that can be traced back over the course of the saga, including visions, destiny, choosing the right or wrong path, and the prospect that midichlorians can be influenced to create life or cheat death …or inflict it. Then, of course, there is the cinematic presentation. An earlier, wordless scene that has Anakin and Padme gazing into each other’s horizon across the Courscant skyline, practically sensing each other, resonates heavily with the idea that together they are chained; one’s spiritual demise will equal the other’s physical. When this finally happens at the end, the sequence is directed with classic film language, where themes -- even causality -- are expressed through the juxtaposition of shots. I mean, really, Padme dying and Darth Vader rising pretty much says it all. This is a hardest kind of argument to make because it comes head to head with the easiest impulse to dismiss at face value potential loftier goals from a film or work of art.

    Assuming it was all just randomness that Lucas blew out of his ass with little thought, then a thesis backed by major mathematical academia needs to be published on how all of these themes and gestures and visuals stack up ever-so-conveniently, resulting in one of the happiest accidents ever experienced by the medium. To put this another way, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck…

    Now, what doesn’t resemble the Anatidae family is this square peg notion that Padme, out of left field and contrary to every other implied reason, thematic setup or storied external (i.e. metaphysical) agent, simply died due to her own lack of caring. How does that even work, exactly? Even death by fate or the Dark Side or midichlorians makes far more sense within the context of this established universe than someone shutting down their vital organs merely with the power of indifference. You could argue the point that it’s not supposed to make sense precisely because it’s just lazy writing on Lucas’ part. But that’s circular logic.
     
    lbr789, Arawn_Fenn and Son of a Bith like this.
  25. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I think everyone gets the symbolism, it's just that some of us still find the scene lame because it could've been done far less heavy-handedly.