Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Graves101, Mar 31, 2013.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't agree it would have been seen as treachery -- it would have been smart. Why not simply say, "Hey, Tarkin, why don't we go and check that the Rebellion is actually on Dantooine before we destroy any leverage we have over the Princess?"

    I doubt Leia would have held out, truthfully. And then they would have used it on Yavin. At the very least, he could have tried.

    Or, if he hates the idea of the Death Star so much, why does he participate in Leia's intimidation during its destruction? To me, his complicity is clear and I don't get why it's so often swept under the rug. If there was only one crime I could undo in the Saga, it would most definitely be Alderaan's destruction. Unless there was something I could undo to stop Palpatine from coming until power in the first place, for certain, of course.
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  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    George? Apparently his attachment to his mother was a "problem" when he started Jedi-training?

    Only a dumbass filmmaker (or someone who makes movies for toddlers) would have a character outright state moralistic messages. That doesn't mean they aren't there or important. Most kids movies have one or several messages included in the story. Star Wars, being a fairy tale, does to.

    Tales about magic (like Harry Potter) can still include some lessons on real life, and SW, yes, does to. Therefore it can also be critizised on its messages and what it actually tries to tell.

    He protects Luke based on an instinct. They haven't known each other well enough to form any real relationship.

    Didn't say "force tricks". Why do you think brute force is the only possible approach in this situation? Just what kind of person are you anyway?

    Ah and the phrase were I said "He could try to gain his trust?" you didn't notice? There are a lot of different things you could try in that situation, simply by talking. Threats of a mild sort "I would find out anyway" can work quite well and don't immediately destroy a relationship.
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  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Tarkin probably wouldn't answer well to that suggestion (he was in rage) plus Tarkin was in command of the DS and not Vader. There was nothing to be done except for treachery and apparently Vader didn't want to go that far.

    While he apparently didn't think much of the "technological terror", having it destroyed would still severely weaken the Empire and kill multiple important officers. He was also quite possible under direct orders of the Emperor to get a hold of the plans, which would make torturing Leia a necessity.
    What is also possible: Maybe he thought the destruction of Alderaan was better than losing the DS with all the personnel and important officers. Losing would be also terribad from a psychological standpoint.
  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Tarkin was in a rage? To be honest, I always saw him as dissonantly calm -- a bureaucrat to the end. He never, as far as I can tell, expresses strong emotion. Sure he was in charge, but it would be only logical to confirm Leia's claims before destroying their trump card. I disagree heartily that treachery was the only option. Not by a longshot.

    Plus, at that point, Vader was irreplaceable to Palpatine being the only other known Force user left.

    I'm not saying that Vader would have to have the Death Star destroyed, but he could have argued (on purely practical grounds) that its use should be confined to military endeavors for the sake of keeping the populace placated. He never argues that though -- instead he happily participates in the slaughter of billions of civilians. I think that's his greatest crime, personally. Not just because of the massive amount of lives lost, but also the senselessness of it and the fact that he shows not a shred of remorse or acknowledgement that it was wrong.

    That's just my personal take on it, though.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Apr 6, 2013
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The question mark implies you're asking. The answer is no. "George" never said that.

    This message is coming from you, not the filmmaker. That's why Lucas doesn't say it, and Lucas characters don't say it. It's all you.

    "And you're still forgetting that the hero of Return of the Jedi was attached to someone."

    And apparently also on things invented by viewers.

    Luke's attachment saves the day. Don't look at that, kids! Look over here! Look at the monkey!

    I know. Not everyone is easily manipulated.

    One of those evil types opposed to control freak mentality, it seems. Feel free to continue to demonize anyone telling you there's something wrong with it. Here's Lucas' take on control freak mentality in case you missed it: The more you tighten your grip, the more will slip through your fingers.

    They were talking. So I guess you're referring to more talking. So what if that didn't work? What gives you the impression that more talking would produce a different result?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 6, 2013
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What? He orders her to be "executed immediately" when it turns out there were no more rebels on Dantooine and clearly got carried away by emotions when doing so (she was the only link to the rebellion).

    Also Tarkin was one of my favorite villains in the movies because Peter Cushing conveyed plenty emotions in his portrayal of him. From prideful arrogance in his beloved battle station (when he was asked to retreat), to thoughtfulness (conference room scene) to shock (when found out that Leia lied) to sadism (when he orders to have Alderaan destroyed). I admire his acting.

    Yes, but he wouldn't want to get suspicions up, right?

    Then lets agree to disagree. Imo there's no way that Vader could've convinced Tarkin not to use his new toy. Tarkin doesn't seem like a man easily intimidated.
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    @Arawn_Fenn
    You know what? You go on blindly apologizing for the movies flaws. I don't give a damn anymore and it is also a waste of time.
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I quite agree that his acting is very impressive. But I've never really seen him in an out of control rage. He always seems tightly controlled and cold -- knowing exactly what he is doing and not giving a damn about the ethical considerations. Yes, he can be sadistic, charming, arrogant, prideful, and shocked, but he's always in full control of his faculties.

    He doesn't strike me as the type to lash out at Vader if he suggested that they wait to confirm that the Rebels were on Dantooine before taking any further action, is what I'm saying.

    His suspicions about what exactly? At that point, Vader doesn't indicate that he's trying to overthrow Palpatine in the slightest. It's only with the discovery of Luke that he seems to think he has a shot of overthrowing Palps, as seen by how he gives up his ambitions when Luke rejects him. My only point was that Palpatine would side with Vader over Tarkin as Vader was indispensable throughout ANH due to his Force abilities whereas Tarkin was not.

    Perhaps not. But he could have argued that it should be used on a military target. It's not about intimidating Tarkin, it's about being reasonable. If they destroy Alderaan without confirming that the Rebels are on Dantooine, then they lose any and all ability to get information from Princess Leia while turning the populace against them. Strategically, it makes more sense to reveal Leia's lie and keep pressuring her, both from a military and public relations perspective.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Apr 6, 2013
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    1)
    His emotions got the better of him when he shut down the idea of evacuation and when he ordered the execution of Leia. He sure wouldn't lash out at Vader but searching for rebels on Dantooine would take time and it's obvious he was eager to use his beloved battle station. He'd simply shoot Vader down, like he can, because he is in command of the station.

    2)
    Like I said, the Emperor probably ordered the DS be used on a rebel target of Tarkins choosing. If Vader opposed this it would make him look weird for sure. This being the empire even the slightest suspicion of treason can cause troubles.

    3)
    Being reasonable in the Empire can easily mark you a traitor. Why would Vader bother if it is likely Tarkin would deny his request anyway?
    Also if Leia doesn't reveal the information, Tarkin could simply threaten to destroy another planet. Leia has already seen his threats become truth, therefore she would have to take them seriously.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 6, 2013
  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think it was the radio play that may have had him criticise Tarkin's plan, and Tarkin lose his temper.

    The scene in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader that may correspond to it:

    "I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. Turning to Motti, he commanded, "Set your course for Alderaan."
    "With pleasure," Motti replied with an evil smile.
    Realizing what Tarkin intended, Vader surveyed the man with new respect. The Dark Lord had done many horrendous and unpardonable things, but it seemed that Tarkin- at least in this situation- was even more diabolically inventive. However, Vader had one problem with Tarkin's scheme. "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems," Vader said. "The Emperor should be consulted."
    "Do not think to challenge me!" Tarkin snapped. "You are not confronting Tagge or Motti now! The Emperor has placed me in charge of this affair with a free hand, and the decision is mine! And you will have your information that much sooner."
    Vader had long suspected that Grand Moff Tarkin was insane, but it was not until Tarkin had addressed him just then, without a trace of fear, that Vader was left without a doubt. Vader said "If your plan serves our purpose, it will justify itself."
    "The stability of the Empire is at stake," Tarkin said. "A planet is a small price to pay."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Apr 6, 2013
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  11. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    What astonishes me is that fans are so emotionally tethered to the ROTJ redemption that they lose sight of the conceit that Vader was originally conceived as a black-hearted villain. The Red Grant to Tarkin's Rosa Klebb. The Sheriff of Nottingham, to Prince John. He's pure evil, through and through. A traitor to Poppa Skywalker, a murderer of Ben Kenobi, a torturer of Princess Leia.

    And yet here we are, discussing Vader's role in Alderaan's destruction, speculating whether he was crying on the inside, or politically impotent. Any motive is considered, in order to give weight to the redemption, other than the simple fact that he's a bad guy who, like his comrades, gets his rocks off destroying things.
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I wouldn't say that was emotional though. When he discovered that Leia had lied, she had outlived her usefulness -- they knew they wouldn't get anymore information out of her anyway and the order had been signed before she had even said anything about Dantooine. It wasn't anger in response to her lie, from what I could tell. Likewise, I don't believe that searching for rebels on Dantooine would take all that long -- they certainly discovered rather quickly that the Leia had lied to them.

    I don't think so. Again, there are practical considerations to consider. They should have, at the very least, confirmed Leia's information before acting and Vader should have pointed that out. Plus, no one short of the Emperor is going to accuse Vader of treason. He chokes a senior Imperial Officer without so much as a reprimand.

    No. When they used the Death Star on Alderaan, they lost all power over Leia. Because with that one action, they showed her that there was no reason for her to tell them anything. Even if she told the truth, they would continue to destroy planets. Don't forget that Tarkin believed that she was telling the truth about Dantooine and yet he went ahead and ordered Alderaan to be destroyed anyway. The threat on another planet will not persuade Leia because Tarkin's actions will have made her realize that no matter what she says, he's going to do what he wants.

    If Vader had intervened, she might have been more willing to talk as someone might have been willing to spare civilian planets.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    @drg4
    Even in ANH Vaders evil is methodical and pragmatical. He surely enjoys destroying threats to the empire but he doesn't indulge in sadism much. In a way, that's even scarier than the opposite.

    I think we simply interpreted these scenes differently. That's okay.


    As Tarkin has said, Dantooine is to remote to make an effective demonstration and one important enough planet had to be destroyed anyway (orders of Palpatine). What difference would it make to Vader which one? So if he wanted to save Alderaan, he would need to convince Tarkin not to use the DS on an important world. Far more difficult.

    Her guilt would make her compliant. She must feel a lot of guilt because Alderaan was chosen. She would fear that if she didn't comply her actions would lead to the destruction of another heavily inhabited world. And she wouldn't be in a very rational state, just having witnessed the destruction of her home world.
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    When in the movie, or even the EU, is it stated that Tarkin was ordered to demonstrate the power of the Death Star the moment it was complete?
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That's an assumption I make, but a reasonable one. If Tarkin had the permission to destroy as many planets as he wants that would be insane. It's already insane enough, actually.
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
  17. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    In KOTOR 2 Kreia says Ajunta Pall's redemption was a "betrayal of the self" When you've been evil for so long, how long is it until that's who you ARE? Then what is there left to redeem?
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That was an interesting read but as far as I know the idea of making Tarkin a traitor was mostly dropped after ANH, because in TESB and ROTJ the Emperor got a far more important role.
  19. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    When I started my "defense" of Vader I mentioned I was loathe to do it. I've always hated it when people defend the actions of the Empire just to be contrarian. But I had to step into that territory to make my case that Vader of the OT, while evil, was akin to an SS officer performing his duties, versus the psychopath they turned Anakin/Vader into in the prequels.
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  20. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Because everybody but Sidious had to be a complete idiot.

    [IMG] [IMG]

    Hmm, wait, why are you bashing the Jedi, how do you know Sith legends, and why are you telling me how great it is to be a Sith Lord? <drooooooool>
    Last edited by janstett, Apr 7, 2013
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes, there was certainly a different style to Vaders actions in the OT. The "evilness" itself though was more or less the same.

    Hey, I just thought of something.
    OT Vader ... Hans Landa in inglorious basterds
    PT Vader ... Hitler in inglorious basterds
  22. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Now I've got this wonderful image of Han Solo carving an Empire emblem into Sebastian Shaw's forehead.

    "My pal Luke mighta thought there was good in you, and that might'n be true. But I'm gonna make sure you wear that uniform forever."

    (Cue End Music)
    Last edited by drg4, Apr 7, 2013
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  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Haha, that'd be pretty awesome.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The Sith are a matter of historical fact in the era of the films. As such there would be information out there about them that scholars would know. Palpatine learned of them as a college student.
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  25. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I think you have to look at this from a more supernatural perspective. I don't think in our world, it is realistic that someone commits mass genocide and changes their mind; those who do that sort of thing do not have conscience or remorse for the harm of others, and do not change their mind about what they have done like that. However, Anakin's character is built as different from anything in our world in many ways, and that is an important point of the story..
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