Anakin Skywalker/ Darth Vader: Looking at his life AS A WHOLE, is he a hero or a villain?

That's a terrible comparison and you know it. Give one example, other than Fallen (which was nessicary) and the Jedi kids (who were a threat to the Empire), where Vader deliberately kills civilians.

 

I just don't see it. Osama bin Laden could repent his sins and save my life by sacrificing his, but he still wouldn't be a hero in my book. He would just be a villain who did one heroic act before he died. It doesn't wash the slate clean.

Oh I totally see Vader as Osama Bin Laden[rolls eyes]

Thats an awful comparison to make. I can't begin on how screwed up an analogy that is to compare Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader a character that is only serving the galaxy, with Osama Bin Laden.
Anakin/Vader is someone we're supposed to identify with not alienate as though he is pure evil.

Despite the Tusken Tribe slaughter, Anakin/Vader never harmed any civilians (save the EU Falleen incident), he only ever harmed Rebellion traitors & Imperial officers.


(BTW Masterskywalker: I don't think Vader kills the Jedi kids, if anything that would be done by the stormies on a raid on the Jedi Temple, or the Temple being blown to bits)

 

Apparently, he does hunt down Jedi kids according to enemy lines, but a Jedi is a Jedi. If kids as young as eight were at Geonosis, there's no reason why they shouldn't be considered a legitimate threat to Imperial stability.

And Fallen, for the umpteenth time, saved lives. Vader didn't blow up that chem plant on purpose, he just made the most efficent choice availible to clean it up.

 

efficient in terms of time... he could have instead used other means to save those who were not infected...

i still don't buy that all the Tuskens were guilty or were combatants and deserved death?


Vader is also a villain because he chose to work with an organization that committed atrocities. who you associte with (and work for) does color your character...

 

masterskywalker:
Apparently, he does hunt down Jedi kids according to enemy lines, but a Jedi is a Jedi.

I don't take that as proof myself. Lucas isn't trying show Anakin as THAT evil. Anakin will morely kill Council members and a few or the odd Jedi Knight but Jedi Children? Thats left up to the Imperial Stormtroopers.

Jawajames:
i still don't buy that all the Tuskens were guilty or were combatants and deserved death?

Well none of the Tuskens seemed to care about Shmi, and having her tied up and brutally beaten to near death. They didn't seem to bothered by that at all.
But that doesn't excuse Anakin from the fact that it was WRONG to kill them all.
It doesn't matter how innocent or guilty the Tuskens were, Anakin is more in the wrong for his reaction.

Vader is also a villain because he chose to work with an organization that committed atrocities. who you associte with (and work for) does color your character...

I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

 

So you don't like the Osama bin Laden comparison. So bin Laden kills civilians, but they are the people that he deems to be combatants.

Vader would easily kill anybody that he saw as a combatant, and that was anybody that was a threat to his or the Emperor's power. Although there may be no cases as of yet that suggest Vader has killed civilians (himself), because it IS in his character to do so, I wouldn't rule out that he has.

Do I like Vader? Of course, he's a great VILLAIN. But just because I like him doesn't mean I have to believe he's a hero. I think that's the root of this issue, some of his "supporters" want to put a positive or heroic spin on the guy so that they look/feel or whatever about liking a villain. Yes, Vader has some admirable qualities, but I can't believe anybody would believe the REAL Emperor's Hand is a good guy. He might be a tragic hero by definition, but just because hero is in the definition, does not make him a hero. A hero is someone that should be honored, I don't think Vader deserves such.

 

he is neither, he is an example, GL's story is a moral, I think he is a fallen hero, like a fallen king...Anakin/vader are my fav characters in all the SW.

 

>>Jawajames:
i still don't buy that all the Tuskens were guilty or were combatants and deserved death? <<

>>Well none of the Tuskens seemed to care about Shmi, and having her tied up and brutally beaten to near death. They didn't seem to bothered by that at all. <<

How do we know that all the Tuskens in the camp knew that Shmi was there, and all of them felt it was okay to keep her like that. Do you think the Tusken children knew of the prisoner? or wondered why she was being kept? Would those who disagreed with her captors tried to defy them by tending to her or trying to free her? I'm sure it was discussed by the Tusken decision makers whether to keep her since they kept getting counter-raided by the farmers.. even though they won the encounter where Cliegg lost his leg, they were drawing the wrath of the farmers.

>>But that doesn't excuse Anakin from the fact that it was WRONG to kill them all.
It doesn't matter how innocent or guilty the Tuskens were, Anakin is more in the wrong for his reaction. <<

Agreed.

 

and the Jedi kids (who were a threat to the Empire), where Vader deliberately kills civilians.

What, because they were a threat to a tyrannical and unjust government it is okay for Vader to have them slaughtered?

JMA

 

The Empire was the legitimate athority at the time, the rebels were just that, rebels. Vader was a servant of the Empire, therefore, he did the military missions the Empire told him to. That included killing very dangerous children, or did you forget that kids as young as eight or nine were already padawans fighting under their masters? That's a dangerous threat.

 

That included killing very dangerous children, or did you forget that kids as young as eight or nine were already padawans fighting under their masters? That's a dangerous threat.

Simply because the government in place has some shaky claim to galactic authority does not make it morally right in any way, shape, or form, and doesn't make Vader immune to evil simply because he was following the orders of the head of that governing body.

JMA

 

Ah, so you would consider the killing of Hitler Youth soldiers (some of whom were as young as eight) a crime? Jedi children fall in the same category, a dangerous force in the hands of an enemy power.

 

Ah, so you would consider the killing of Hitler Youth soldiers (some of whom were as young as eight) a crime? Jedi children fall in the same category, a dangerous force in the hands of an enemy power.

*sigh* If you can't see a difference between Hilter Youth soldiers, trained specifically to kill people and believe in a system of discrimination and abuse, and Jedi children who were raised specifically to mediate and help, to bring a noble form of justice to the galaxy, then this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

JMA

 

JMA has a point there

Comparing Hitler Youth and Jedi padawans is a terrible comparison

IMO there's no possible way to justify intentionally killing children. It's not like the jedi padawans were caught in a bombing campaign, they were killed on purpose

If we went out of our way to bomb a school in Iraq then that'd be quite evil, if some children are caught in the explosion from a bomb that was dropped on a military installation then while it's a terrible thing it's a lot different then doing it on purpose

 

And masterskywalker don't accuse Anakin/Vader of doing such a thing to the Jedi younglings without proof. We do not know if he ever did such a thing so leave it out.

BTW that Hitler Youth comparison...ugh....despicable...terribly despicable.

 

I've kept out of the debates on this thread on purpose - I wanted to see where it would go - but now, it's time for a megathon, looking at every comment that's been made since the word 'go'... To save people time reading, the posts are in reverse-chronological order.

*shakes dice and scores a double-six*

And masterskywalker don't accuse Anakin/Vader of doing such a thing to the Jedi younglings without proof. We do not know if he ever did such a thing so leave it out.

In EL, there *is* a statement. I'll look up the exact quote when I'm next able to get online.

Comparing Hitler Youth and Jedi padawans is a terrible comparison

Agreed.

The Empire was the legitimate athority at the time, the rebels were just that, rebels.

The legitimacy of the Empire as a government is surely disputable.

Do you think the Tusken children knew of the prisoner?

Not to mention any babies. We can conveniently argue there may not have been any babies or whatever, but the odds of that are pretty low. Reality seems to suggest otherwise.

he is neither, he is an example, GL's story is a moral, I think he is a fallen hero, like a fallen king...

Agreed.

I don't take that as proof myself. Lucas isn't trying show Anakin as THAT evil. Anakin will morely kill Council members and a few or the odd Jedi Knight but Jedi Children? Thats left up to the Imperial Stormtroopers.

It's explicitly stated; and they WEREN'T Jedi kids, they were Force-sensitive children, some even with parents who were non-Jedi. Allston was trying to fit the Lord Nyax legend into the history of the Jedi Purge (I comment on that further down this mega-thon post).

Vader is also a villain because he chose to work with an organization that committed atrocities. who you associte with (and work for) does color your character...

Agreed.

And funny The Emperor didn't get to be a Force Spirit...funny that....maybe its cos he is a villain?!

Um, he did - Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, Empire's End.

Ah but thats another point of the saga, that the end doesn't justify the means.
That was one of Anakin/Vader's failings. He thought the end justified the means, and look what happened to him and the the galaxy around him.
Luke was the one that showed that the means justify the ends. That if you do things right and make the right decisions, you get to where you want to be.
Just another factor for Anakin to realise the truth of his life and situation. which makes him turn back and kill the Emperor.

VERY good point!

But going for a much deeper level. Its the fact though his decisions were bad, we as human beings can understand those choices, the reasons behind them and why we could easily in our own life context make similar bad choices.

Good point.

Perhaps the chosen one was meant to fall to the dark-side, it was Anakin's destiny, he had too much power to remain good

Good thought, FH, the difficulty I have with that philosophy is, it removes the responsibility of an individual for their own actions. Say I kill someone; that is my destiny. Blame the force that destined me to kill someone, not me! You see what I mean? Now, I'm not claiming your read may not be right, and it is a good one, but philosophically, it *is* a difficult one; what will be interesting to see, is if Lucas uses that concept at all, because it would actually work quite well in the SW example.

You may be right, Lucas may set out to change completely how Vader is perceived in Episode III, but then again he could not. And until otherwise, I think it's safe to pass judgement until he gives us something to change it. And IMO, I don't think our change in perception is going to come from the fact that Vader was a great guy afterall, but rather seeing and understanding his downfall. But again, it goes back to Vader's choice. Nobody told Anakin that he had to serve the Emperor. No one told Anakin that he needed to slaughter those Tuskens. I don't think ONE good (al

 

But to call him a hero, is to ignore the evil he did in his life also, imo. I see Anakin as neither hero nor villain, but rather as an example of redemption and caution; a good man is twisted by the darkness within him, becoming one of (imo) the most monstrous beings in the Galaxy. Even at this stage, however, he is not above redemption, and the good comes to the fore as he saves his son - and, less intentionally, the Galaxy

I don't think seeing him as a hero ignores his past transgressions. It takes them into account but also its important to understand the man himself and what his motives were. He wasn't being evil for the sake of it, like say Palpatine, he was doing it because he naively thought it was right. The fact that he repented his past acts, shows his redemptive qualities means that although he isn't the main hero like Luke, he is a hero in another way.
As I said, and a few others said...a Tragic Hero.


In EL, there *is* a statement. I'll look up the exact quote when I'm next able to get online.

It's explicitly stated; and they WEREN'T Jedi kids, they were Force-sensitive children, some even with parents who were non-Jedi. Allston was trying to fit the Lord Nyax legend into the history of the Jedi Purge (I comment on that further down this mega-thon post).

Whatever, until its SHOWN in Episode 3 I will never and I mean NEVER believe that Vader was that evil. I don't think he had anything against the Jedi children, yeah sure he had things against the Jedi Council members and his former Master but thats totally different.
Even George Lucas wouldn't imply that Vader did such an act, it would make his redemption worthless to the audience. You think I'd want him redeemed after killing such younglings?
No way! The EU stepped way too far there. Until you know the story don't make statements which havent been proven.

And the Tusken Children BTW are different, as they are part of a nomad tribe and would have witnessed such rituals as what was done to Shmi (its part of their integration into Tusken society I believe, I'll find the source for that).

 

Hmmm double posting? I don't need that much help upping my post count thanks

 

"Comparing Hitler Youth and Jedi padawans is a terrible comparison"

No, it's not.

I'm discussing technicalities here, which you're all doing as well. Hitler Youth's were trained by the state to serve as soldiers, the Jedi functioned as soldiers in the clone wars as well and actively rebelled against the Empire. Morality, the "good" the Hitler Youth's did or did not do (and the same with the Jedi) has absolutely nothing to do with this. From the Empire's perspective, the legitimate government body of the galaxy, Jedi children are a dangerous and presumably rebellous force destabilizing to the current regime, that therefore makes them enemies of the state, and subject to any action the government deams nessicary.

"And masterskywalker don't accuse Anakin/Vader of doing such a thing to the Jedi younglings without proof. We do not know if he ever did such a thing so leave it out."

He he, I'M not the one doing the accusing here. It does say in Rebel Stand that Lord Nyax's legend wasn't taken serriously until Vader showed up and started hunting for Jedi kids. Although it did say he, "Took them away" IIRC. That could mean any number of things. It's possible some were brought up to be darkside assassins much the same way Mara Jade was.

 

Some more food for thought.

From the OS DATABANK:

"Obi-Wan incorrectly believed that he could train Anakin as skillfully as the revered Yoda. He would later admit that he was wrong. His arrogance had grave consequences for the galaxy. Anakin Skywalker succumbed to the temptations of the dark side, and was reborn as a Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Vader."

So who's more of the failure? The teacher or the student?

 

as for the question of Obi-wan's arrogance... if the fault for Anakin's turning falls to Obi-wan, it should also turn to the entire Jedi Council. They permitted Obi-wan (a newly made Knight who had never trained an apprentice) to train the child of prophecy, rather than turn him over to the best teachers available, keeping him in the jedi temple, possibly freeing his mother, etc. While Yoda disagreed with the desire to train him, he should have seen the wisdom in having an experienced master train him, and not the knight of a deceased master branded unorthodox.

Obi-wan was arrogant for thinking he could train him, and the Jedi Council was foolish for allowing it. If you had someone that powerful, you should keep a good eye on it.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

edit: spelling.

 

Its not a case of one over the other.

Anakin is the main person to blame for his fall. He made his own decisions, and he has to take responsibility for it (he does later when he redeems himself).

Obi-Wan is a part of the blame, he wasn't ready for such a challenge as Anakin. He would have made a fine Master to any other Padawan. But his lack of experience, his ridged ways and his lack of really talking and understanding his Padawan were all attributes to his failure.

You really want the one to have the biggest share of blame for Anakin's fall, besides anakin himself?
Palpatine. He knew exactly what he was doing. He manipulated the young man, preyed on his emotions, fueled his ego, his arrogance and got Anakin to trust him. He used Anakin just like he used everyone else.

No, it's not.

I'm discussing technicalities here, which you're all doing as well. Hitler Youth's were trained by the state to serve as soldiers, the Jedi functioned as soldiers in the clone wars as well and actively rebelled against the Empire. Morality, the "good" the Hitler Youth's did or did not do (and the same with the Jedi) has absolutely nothing to do with this. From the Empire's perspective, the legitimate government body of the galaxy, Jedi children are a dangerous and presumably rebellous force destabilizing to the current regime, that therefore makes them enemies of the state, and subject to any action the government deams nessicary.

Whichever way you twist it, comparing Jedi younglings to Hitler's Youth is a bad bad analogy. It doesn't matter about technicalities or whatever. You cannot rationalise this kind of comparison. I'll put my hands over my ears on this one.

He he, I'M not the one doing the accusing here. It does say in Rebel Stand that Lord Nyax's legend wasn't taken serriously until Vader showed up and started hunting for Jedi kids. Although it did say he, "Took them away" IIRC. That could mean any number of things. It's possible some were brought up to be darkside assassins much the same way Mara Jade was.

Whataver was said in Rebel Stand is just conjecture and speculation. As far as I'm concerned. Typical of the Post Jedi EU to make Vader out to be a complete monster when he isn't even that.
I wish they'd wait until Episode 3 before making such unproven statements. For all we know the Jedi Temple could have been destroyed with the children INSIDE and Vader had never touched them. The EU can't go making baseless accusations of such an attrocity. (that kinda sounds like Palpy )

 

"It doesn't matter about technicalities or whatever."

Tell that to defence lawyers.

 

At least on this planet, he still would have been tried as accessory. Vader could have easily stopped Tarkin at any time. Although Tarkin outranked Vader, Palpy prolly would have found it alot easier to forgive Vader for usurping power rather than Tarkin himself.

I don't see Palpatine as being forgiving. All the acts of compassion and support that Palpatine used to get Anakin on his side, any pretense of it, had been gone for years at this point. I think of Vader as a glorfied slave, really.

I don't think Tarkin ran amok after decades of service, I think it was Palpatine that wanted his oldest (friendly) enemy, Bail Organa, out of the way once and for all. Remember, Palpatine is virtually all seeing, and he knew that Organa was planning an insurrection in the future. After the plans got stolen by him and Leia, the future was "now", and Alderaan was sumarily dealt with. It's no coincidence that Leia later thought, "there had been other leaders of course, but so many were killed by the first DS".

Palpatine knew they were there.


So you don't like the Osama bin Laden comparison. So bin Laden kills civilians, but they are the people that he deems to be combatants.


I hate it. Bin Laden is a spoiled rotten prince that went to a third world country and brainwashed a bunch of illerate, poverty-stricken fanatics into killing themselves while lived in a palace in the lap of luxury, using God as his personal weapon when he isn't even a Muslim. He used his family's 300 million to buy weapons and set himself up as a king of sorts with minions that rules over with an iron fist. He is meglomaniac with a messiah complex. He tortured, brutalized women and kids, butchering them, and stealing little girls as young as eight out their houses at night to be raped to death. He is responsible for the deaths of over 250,000 Afgans, and thousands of others, through terroist bombings. All int he name of God and being a martyr.

Vader is nothing remotely like this.

 

Durned double post!