Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader Redemption thread (Murderer or not?)

Updated for the release of Episode II:

Despite the fact that Anakin Skywalker is the focal point of the entire Star Wars saga, not to mention the hero in the first few movies, and how many people think Anakin/Vader is nothing more than a heartless butcher who turns good for the last five seconds of RotJ. I would like to bring up the counter point that not only did Anakin Skywalker do more good than harming during his life (Though his reason for turning wasn't *totally* his fault), I'd also like to challenge the assumption that he "murdered billions" which is referenced in several books.

First issue, the Death Star. Not only did Vader not give the order to fire on Alderaan (that was Tarkin's crime) he seems rather disinterested with the whole station. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the force.

Second issue, the people Vader "murdered". Basically, every combat pilot Vader shot down wasn't murder it was war. Fighting on the wrong side of a war doesn't automatically make you a criminal. If it did, why didn't the U.S. kill every Nazi who killed allied soldiers in WWII? From Vader's side, Captain Antilles was a Traitor in the first degree and seriously jeopardized the security of the Empire. In fact, many former enemies such as fighter pilot Saburo Sakai and an American Navy pilot he shot down over the Pacific become good friends after a war. Both men killed each other?s comrades, so why don't they hate each other? Because they were doing their duty the best they knew how. Same with Sootir Fel, killed rebels by the truckload, yet he was accepted eventually when he switched sides. Vader also didn't "Murder" Obi Wan. Obi Wan allowed himself to be struck down, and he doesn't seem very pissed at Anakin when he shows up on the light side of the force. In fact, he seems happy to see him. The destruction of Xizor homeworld was also an action protecting the greater good. How many civilians would have died if that virus got loose? It may not have been his intent, but Vader probably saved millions if not billions by giving that order. This goes with Qui Gon Jinn's statement that "People with bad motivations and causes can do good things, and people with good motivations can do great evil."


Now lets look at the good Anakin did. He saved Padme, Obi Wan and Qui Gonn from being stranded for 50 or so years on Tatooine. He killed a vicious slaver who would have ruined thousands of lives if he had escaped. And most important of all he killed Emperor Palpatine, Anakin basically saved the entire galaxy at this point and here in lies his redemption. How many people, max, did Vader kill? Some would say several billion. How many beings live in the galaxy? Trillions upon trillions. Once AotC is released, I'll post what good he did then which was quite alot.

If Vader had not struck down the Emperor the following would have happened.

1. Luke would have been killed by Palpatine, strike one savior of the galaxy.

2. The Imperial fleet (as evidenced by Palpatine?s war coordination of the fleet) would have wiped out almost the entire rebel fleet including some of its greatest leaders. It would have been the end of the alliance. Leia would have been picked by the fleet in orbit or would have been roasted from orbital bombardment, that's assuming Palpatine didn't turn her to the darkside. Not only that, without the fracturing of the Imperial fleet into competing warlords, the remnants of the alliance would have fought ten times the ships and soldiers that the did when the emperor was killed.

3. Anakin would never have brought balance to the force, and without future Jedi, Palpatine would have ruled the Empire for as long as he was alive. Which would be about... ten thousand years. Even Palpatine return didn't cheapen Anakin's sacrifice. Palpatine's empire was in ruins and he was destroyed again by his children. When he returned a third time, it was in a crippled body, and would have drug his soul into the madness beyond death without future intervention. It was total humiliation, a grea

 

Seeing as how I'm too tired to read all of Anakin1607's post, I'll just be biased for my current reply. I don't like Anakin Skywalker, thus, I'll go ahead and say that he wasn't redeemed, in my opinion.

 

Wow, there's an open mind for you.

What was it someone said?

"The main reason I don't like Anakin is cause he got to do you-know-what with Padme"



Your not liking Anakin has nothing to do with his redemption. What's the point of telling Vader's story if he's a total pyschopath?

 

Anakin1607: "What was it someone said?

'The main reason I don't like Anakin is cause he got to do you-know-what with Padme.'"

Dude, I was the one that said that...

 

Naturally.

 

Anakin1607: Damn it. If I didn't like you as much as I do, then I wouldn't have gone back to read that entire, lengthy post you did. Argh...

"Anakin would never have brought balance to the force..."

I still think that's debatable. Just because Lucas says that "Balance" was established by Vader destroying Palpatine doesn't mean that I have to believe him. Personally, I don't give Lucas much credit for being very insightful.
How is Balance truly achieved by destroying Palpatine? What's being referred to by the word "Balance"?
By reducing the ranks of Force-wielders to two Jedi (Kenobi and Yoda) and two Sith (Palpatine and Vader), "Balance" is achieved. The scale is equal on both sides. Two and two.
But, with Palpatine dead and Vader soon following after him, that tips the scale in the favor of the "Light Side" (I use quotation marks because I don't believe in a "Dark Side" and "Light Side"--I think the Force is one, individual entity).

"So there's my conclusion, Anakin saved the entire galaxy from tyranny and death and there by atoning for the evil he did. Is that not what redemption is all about?"

From Dictionary.com:
Redemption: "The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed."

Redeem: "To restore the honor, worth, or reputation of."

Kyp Durron tried to redeem his name, as well, but readers still regard him as a cold-hearted murderer.

In regards to Anakin Skywalker, I think your post suggests that you are an advocate of the saying, "The ends justify the means."
The means for Anakin Skywalker to bring "Balance" to the Force involved slaying fellow Jedi, becoming a Sith Lord, and who knows what else. And the end was his victory over Palpatine.

Kyp Durron, too, appears to be an advocate of "The ends justify the means"--to an extent, granted--yet fans still regard him as a cold-hearted murderer.

I'm really tired/dazed/depressed right now, so forgive me I was unable to convey the similarities between Kyp Durron and Anakin Skywalker the way I obviously intended to.

 

Redemption is one thing, others acceptance of that redemption is an entierely different thing. I'm currently working on a fan fic that deals with that issue concerning Anakin's redemption. If you'd like to see some of it, go to FanFix, open the Series category, and look for The Trial of Darth Vader. What is there right now should give you some idea as to my stance on this issue.

 

"The ends justify the means"

Far from it, Anakin could have killed Palpatine without becoming corrupted but that's not the way Lucas decided to tell the story.

Anakin made some bad mistakes in his life, if he hadn't, he wouldn't have needed to be redeemed. No one else had the power to take out Palpatine. Notice that even while wounded, Anakin still endures a barage of force lighting long enough to kill Palpatine. The point is that he made up for his shortcomings and in the end saved more lives that he took thus atoning for his fall. Even those who don't forgive Anakin still owe their freedom to his sacrifice. Anakin didn't ask everyone to forgive him. But I feel that should be remembered as a man who fell, but was redeemed at the end he gave a great victory to the light. And that light outshone his own darkness.

 

A few other notes:

During Shadows of the Empire, Vader notes that no matter how hard he tried, he could never fully destroy the good man that was Anakin Skywalker. What is important is that Anakin came to his senses before it was too late to make a differnce.

Vader even sees himself as damned, which makes his return to the light even more powerful. In the Vader vs. Maul battle, Maul asks Vader what he could possibly hate enough to destroy him. Vader answers, "Myself". Same with Luke in RotJ "It is too late for me, my son." Things like that prove that Vader is still human. Everyone fails at some point in their life, no one is perfect, yet Anakin corrected his own failure. That is what is important IMO.

 

Yesh, what's with people these days? They'll argue endlessly about who should hook up with Jaina, but no one wants to talk about the V-man.

 

"Yesh, what's with people these days? They'll argue endlessly about who should hook up with Jaina, but no one wants to talk about the V-man."

Significant differences between Jaina and Vader:
-Jaina's got breasts
-Jaina can appeal to the majority of SW fans (males)
-Jaina is supposedly sexy
-Vader doesn't have breasts, and if he did...ew
-Vader's skin is all pale and sickly looking
-Vader's far from being the most attractive individual in the universe


Shall I continue?

 

True, yet if it wasn't for Anakin the little brat would have never exsisted in the first place!

 

I have an issue with your saying that Vader didn't actually fire the Death Star. He was indifferent to Tarkin, but I think this is just as bad. He certainly could have prevented Tarkin from firing it if he wanted. This sort of reminds me of when, in school, your teachers always said that letting someone cheat off your paper was just as bad/worse than copying someone else's paper.

 

You mentioned something at the beginning of your post about episode2, so I didn't read it. But I caught the thing about no one wanting to talk about Vader... maybe the fact that Vader is dead? We don't have Qui-Gon Jinn threads either, now do we?

 

If there were episode II spoilers in my post, I be shut down faster than a strip joint in Amish country.

Actually, Tarkin was a higher rank than Vader, so it's unlikely he could have stopped the firing of the Death Star even if he wanted to.

Qui Gonn was only in one movie before getting the axe, Vader is one of the most popular characters and is in all six.

 

Ohh, I can just see it now:

LAWYER "Your honour, my client's case is that by mowing down 10 pedestrians he saved 20 little children from being run over by a psycho juggernaut driver and should be entirely excused from the charges of deliberate murder."

JUDGE: "Crap. Twenty years!"

Vader was not out for redemption in ROTJ, nor was he particularly caring about Alderaan, hence his indifference makes him complicit in its destruction, or is it going to be said Vader could not have stopped Tarkin?

The fact is Vader knew nothing of the possible consequences of his act on DS2, he simply wanted to save his son. The fact that that act took him out of the dark side seemed to surprise him as much as anyone. Consider that in ROTJ Vader says it is too late for him, that's the statement of a damned man who knows he has earnt his damnation not one out for redemption.

As for the 'means/ends' debate, if that is so then what was to stop the Queen or Panaka holding Watto up at gunpoint to get the parts needed? Oh, no little Anakin, so what? (Oh, wait, then there will be no miraclously lucky shot, that happens to go into a vent, that happens to lead to the reactor which is so weakly defended one bomb sends it sky high!)

Anakin/Vader may have received redemption, but that is not to say he either earnt or deserved it. Remember we are talking of a man who killed billions, not all of them on the battlefield either. If someone said that by betraying Hitler Himmler was effectively absolved of his past crimes, who here would accept it? As Himmler was Hitler's right hand man, so was Vader to Palpatine.

Jedi Ben

 

this would be more at home in any of the movie forums, peobably Episode 3, than here, since it doesn't have to do with any novels.