Anakin Skywalker: EU & Film, Hero to Brat? (spoilers)

Hmm,

I'm starting to see where Tartovsky gets his rep, despite not caring for the animation he has produced such as Dexter's Lab from those posts MS.

Sounds good, I suspect you've seen my thread about a DVD collection over in Small Screen SW.

QG,

I'm suspecting Lucas is looking at the characters simply by virtue of their end point and then moving them from A to B, which is fine except these are prequels, the destination is known. In his Shannara prequel Brooks throws a few new elements into the fray to throw his readers off-balance because he knows they think they know the outcome.

Perhaps this can be seen in the Jedi Council, the prophecy and the Sith's actions such as how the CW were ignited. I'd rate them as uncertain, miss and hit. The JC I'm undecided on, the prophecy I feel is propelling Anakin to a dark fate and is unneeded: Anakin as simply one of the best and brightest Jedi ever would make for a more than good tragedy. Dooku's role in the CW is an inspired bomb of a plot no one could have seen coming. Ep 3 needs similar total surprises.

JB

 

...the prophecy I feel is propelling Anakin to a dark fate and is unneeded: ...


I find it interesting that you think this prophecy spurring anakin a long a dark path...
is this only in light of ANH, ESB, ROTJ or would you feel the same had TPM and AOTC th only movies out (ie, the movies were produced chronologically) ?

The way Lucas is looking at them may stem from the fact he is looking at the movies as a series to be viewed from 1 to 6, but I can see your point there.




Personally, I find it a nice irony that the jedi believed to be their "salvation" turned out to be their downfall (but, ultimately their salvation again)

Imagine Jesus and the Anti-Christ being the same entity.

Still, its interesting to see how different people can see the same movie/read the same book and come away with different impressions of plot points/characters.

 

I have to agree that Anakin is a tragic hero. From AOTC you can see he tries to do the right thing and even seems to be a hero but like said it gets overshadowed by the wrong things he has done. Example would be when he saves Obiwan from his fall. He simple comments that he though he already was better then Yoda in fighting. Quickly he's shot down by Obiwan for the comment when he could have simply been joking. Also after finding the assasin after trying to bring her down he loses his temper. All the heroic action seems to be forgotten since him lossing his temper and getting angry is the last thing we see. Then there is the thing with his mother. Trying to save her but him getting angry overshadows it. He knows that he can be better and even says so. We can see how bad he feels about things when he talks to Padme. No matter what he tries to do things just happen to turn out wrong for him no matter how much good he wants to do.

The control things is a good point. He's never really had control over his life, even now. Him not wanting to let down others even though he doesn't want to be a Jedi like the EU has shown(haven't read myself) makes sense. At the end of TPM it does look like he has anywhere to go but be trained as a Jedi. He couldn't go home back to be a slave, no else was there to take care of him but Obiwan and the Jedi Order. I'm sure its only natural for him not to want to let them down even if he didn't want to be a Jedi. Its not like he could just leave during the middle of training, he was still a minor and no way to make it on his own.

 

DarthTerrious:

"As for Anakin, I like the somber look he gave. It's saying, "I wish I knew how to earn your trust and approval."

Unfortunately MS that quote should not be associated to me, I'm not going to take credit for someone else's good observation.

 

A lot of fans (including me) feel that the only "control" Anakin ever had in his entire life was when he chucked Palpatine down the reactor shaft and when he married Padme. The rest of the time he was always being controlled by someone, Watto at first, then the Jedi, then the Emperor. He was, from a certain point of view, always being manipulated by one side or another. Though his inner flaws led him down the dark path, one cannot denied cruel fate as a factor in his tragic fall either. The death of his mother, his abuse as a child slave, his guilt and rage at having his mother murdered, and being seemingly unable to stop the death of his Jedi friends and the ones he loves. He fears losing them, and so he grasps them so tightly he is left only with anger when they are taken from him. Toss in some very poor teaching from Obi Wan (who didn't accept as his Padawan until the freaking Battle of Kamino!) and others (ESPECIALLY regaurding Feris) and you'll see how tempting Palpatine's offers of power became.

"Unfortunately MS that quote should not be associated to me, I'm not going to take credit for someone else's good observation."

I didn't read the whole thread, so sue me.

 

NeoStar,

Good point about the last image of Anakin being one of anger so overshadowing that whioch precedes it.

QG,

I find it interesting that you think this prophecy spurring anakin a long a dark path...
is this only in light of ANH, ESB, ROTJ or would you feel the same had TPM and AOTC th only movies out (ie, the movies were produced chronologically)

* I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't as then it'd be a straight serial fiction story, we wouldn't have the mess of sequel and prequel.

* I understand the PT trilogy's relation to SW as so:

ANH begins it.
ESB is a sequel to ANH.
ROTJ is a sequel to ESB.
ANH + ESB + ROTJ = OT
TPM / AOTC / Ep 3 is a sequel to the OT but is set before it, thus a prequel.

* So as far as I'm concerned to get the max out of a prequel you have to see the material it is leading to first. This is where it's gone wrong. On the one hand Lucas is having the films marketed as prequels, but on the other he is claiming the 6 films form a series despite them being made in two different times and societes. He doesn't seem to wish to recognise the relation of PT-OT, but sticks the label on them anyway. I'm becoming convinced even he's not sure how he views them, he seems to go in two different directions.

The way Lucas is looking at them may stem from the fact he is looking at the movies as a series to be viewed from 1 to 6, but I can see your point there.

* Probably hence the problem as I see it. It's like Lucas is trying to rebuild his house by putting in the foundations after the building is built because someone's told him they're missing or he has to build another house, but instead decides to improve the one he has. In the process the house gets wrecked and the replacement isn't as good as the original.


Personally, I find it a nice irony that the jedi believed to be their "salvation" turned out to be their downfall (but, ultimately their salvation again)

* It's interesting but I don't see it as anything more than a device for increasing Anakin's status, had the films been done 1 to 6 however...

Imagine Jesus and the Anti-Christ being the same entity.

* Sorry, nothing personal, but I'm not really that interested in that notion.

Still, its interesting to see how different people can see the same movie/read the same book and come away with different impressions of plot points/characters.

* Isn't that why we're here?

JB

 

Toss in some very poor teaching from Obi Wan (who didn't accept as his Padawan until the freaking Battle of Kamino!) and others (ESPECIALLY regaurding Feris) and you'll see how tempting Palpatine's offers of power became.

What?!? That doesn't make any sense at all. He raised the boy for 10 years and it isn't until after the events of ATOC that he finally accepted him as his Padawan? Honestly that just doesn't make any sense at all. We see all this concern for Anakin, annoyance, and gladness toward Anakin in ATOC. How can what you said be true?

I don't think Obiwan did a poor teaching job. It takes two people. Obiwan can only do so much. A lot is left up to Anakin's own personality which I think clashes a bit with Obiwans own. That happens all the time some people just don't mesh together very well no matter how much they try.

 

Sorry, nothing personal, but I'm not really that interested in that notion.

Ah, to each his own I guess.

Probably hence the problem as I see it. It's like Lucas .... gets wrecked and the replacement isn't as good as the original.

Interesting point, which means Lucas walled himself in as soon as he stuck that "Episode V" onto ESB, and then later realised he wanted to do something else entirely....Ah well, c'est la vie.

Toss in some very poor teaching from Obi Wan (who didn't accept as his Padawan until the freaking Battle of Kamino!) and others (ESPECIALLY regaurding Feris) and you'll see how tempting Palpatine's offers of power became.

I think the problem here was that Obi-Wan would have been a fine teacher to another padawan, and Anakin may have been a capable student in the hands of another, they simply weren't really ever going to mesh well...Obi-Wan's background with his master made him yearn for a more "normal" master-apprentice pairing, and Anakin idealisation as Qui-Gon Jinn as the pinnacle of what a jedi should be meant that the master he ended up with just didn't make the grade. (No offense to Obi-Wan - he's OK in my mind.
)

 

Anakin will go bad and no one will be surprised or even sorry, after all we know how the story ends.

Slight correction, no one who has scene the OT will be surprised. There are bound to be plenty of kids who will be shocked by how the story ends.

 

JB - the book is in the Jedi Quest series - its number 7 in the series, called The Moment of Truth. Interestingly enough, the next one, out in Feb. is about Anakin and Palpatine. You can find these books in the young adult section, they are by Jude Watson.

I think Anakin's "destiny" or "fate" or whatever you want to call it as deemed by the Jedi Council has Anakin holed in. He doesn't necessarily want to be there, but what is he to do? He promised Qui-Gon, it wouldn't look good for Obi-Wan, who he really does care about (how many times did he bring up Obi-Wan to Luke in ROTJ?),he has no where else to go. Then the council who may see him as their "redeemer", but they aren't certain enough to treat him with any amount of real respect (in my eyes anyway), given that he is what supposedly they have been waiting for. This brings me to another point of the EU versus the movies. In the movies the Jedi Council's treatment of Anakin leaves A LOT to be desired, especially as a nine-year old. In the Jedi Quest series, he is treated a LITTLE better, but not a whole lot more. In total, Anakin is regarded with suspicion and distance. This is because he IS different than the other padawans. Somehow I don't think it ever occurred to the council that maybe the force had a reason for this. Things weren't exactly sailing along hunky dory...

On another point...being the mother of a teenager myself, I can see why Anakin is drawn to Palpatine. Palpatine is not stupid, (unlike the Jedi Council). If you truly want to bring up a teen into a good adult BOLSTER their esteen, DO NOT tear it down. Have you ever seen a 16 year old's eyes when you tell them they have done something especially great? Or that they are really smart or special? Theorically, they are at the lowest point of their lives regarding how they see themselves. It is then that we need to loosen up and allow them to be great. Not correct them at every turn. It is also then when you start realizing that they are different from you and sometimes anyone else in your family. Unlike the cookie cutter padawans we see at the temple. I see indivuality and spirit as one of Anakin's tragic flaws as the Jedi would see it. Something tells me the "Force" doesn't see it this way...

 

...On another point...being the mother of a teenager myself, I can see why Anakin is drawn to Palpatine. Palpatine is not stupid, (unlike the Jedi Council)...

Palpatine knows how to deal with teenagers, as we can assume he had a somewhat "normal" upbringing, unlike most jedi. (I doubt Palpatine was raised from birth as a Sith, like Maul was.)

Obi-Wan's only experience with teenagers has been with other padawan learners. From what I've read, padawans lead a somewhat "cloistered" life in the Temple. Anakin probably chafed under this, something which the jedi could not possibly understand.

In fact, Palpatine probably attempted to get close to vulnerable jedi LONG before Anakin was even born.

His close relationship with Jorus C'Boath was probably similar. I would like to see what drew those two together. (Perhaps we'll see in the upcoming OFP novel)

I think Anakin's "destiny" or "fate" or whatever you want to call it as deemed by the Jedi Council has Anakin holed in.

Indeed. Anakin doesn't want to disappoint anyone, as he feels there is so much invested in him. He fears failure, in fact.

 

This is an interesting thread. I think the problem is Lucas is nt getting much of this stuff across on screen.
I listened to his commentary on AtoC and the Obiwan/Anakin relationship is ment to be close and that they do care for one another despite the rivalry. On screen all we get is Anakin moaning how its all Obi-wans fault.
The spoilers though for E3 look quite good assuming they are true

 

Hey careful with those spoilers, big shot.


(You didn't give much warning.)

 

Obi-Wan's only experience with teenagers has been with other padawan learners. From what I've read, padawans lead a somewhat "cloistered" life in the Temple. Anakin probably chafed under this, something which the jedi could not possibly understand.

I think OW is doing the best he can with the knowledge he can, but I liken it to a teenager who didn't get to be a child. OW didn't get a chance to learn to be a patient, fatherly master. He also is going on what he knows from being raised from birth at the temple. I actually fault (and always have since TPM) the council more for Anakin's treatment that could have lead to some of the issues he has, more than Obi.

I find it interesting that they had to go back and put the elevator scene in AOTC to make the two appear closer. I really hope they come off as being closer in EPIII. I know that Palpatine will use Anakin's fear of failure against him when turning him. To me, even in the movies Anakin comes off as a lot of bravada to cover up very little self esteem.

 

Fett,

Whilst I know of those spoilers, I'm going to have ask they be removed, either blacked out or Mod-edited.

The rule is very simple on ep 3 spoilers and the reason for the rule is last time people who had no intent of getting spoiled got spoiled by people not thinking and chucking them in. So please don't throw in any more ep 3 spoilers, speculation based on what we know from EU stories and films yes, spoilers no. This applies to everyone. Thanks.

I'll throw in a points reply in a short while as my other half wants the phone!

JB

 

QG, rhonderoo,

I think you're on to something here, the Jedi don't seem to have much in the way of people skills do they? In a way the Jedi are so formal and unemotional they seem the SW version of the Victorians. That bunch frowned on emotion, taught facts and info to kids who would do as they were told or else! We're still killing their damn legacy over here in the UK.

There are better ways of teaching, of learning than those the Jedi adopt. Yet this lack is also perhaps attributable to the cultural influences upon SW. Lucas is known to be heavily influenced by Kurosawa and the eastern ideas. In many Hong Kong movies where there is a martial arts master teaching students, the master-student relationship is very strict, one of obediance by the one to the other and no transgression allowed. Why? It was the culture.

So why is this a problem in the PT? Because the PT is a space opera, it's not a period piece. Thus we look to the Jedi and want them to be more accessible, to be smarter than to believe in ideas that are now known to be not the best methods available to us. In a historical tale we can put it down to history and we know things have changed. In the PT we know the Jedi are shown as this order that perhaps we should be supportive of, given the way the OT built up the concept of the Jedi Knights. Instead we get a bunch of narrow minded fools where some areas are concerned, yes it throws the audience but not in a good way, seems overkill. We already have the Jedi being undone by their detachment from each other and society, more is not needed.

By the by rhonderoo, is that JQ book placed within the CW period as that's my main area of interest, are there other JQ CW books? I have Legacy of the Jedi and enjoyed so may well seek out the other JQ CW stories.

JB

 

And fett gets 24 hours for ignoring Announcement #1 up top. I'm pretty darn serious about keeping EPIII spoilers where they belong.

 

The reason why anakins whines so much about obi wan is because they are close. Anakin just doesn't see Obi wan is trying to protect him. Obi wan is too much like a father/good friend to him.

 

I have been following Star Wars since the beginning and read most EU except comics and PT stories. And the more I read the less I care.

When ANH was called Star Wars, Luke was the hero. And it looked like he would get the princess for slaying the dragon (Death Star), too.

But the audience liked Han Solo better than Luke and the story was changed and it went downhill ever since (that asteroid shark in ESB, Ewoks, Gungans ...).

Till he turned in ROTJ Darth Vader was an interesting villain. Mostly he was interesting because his past was mysterious.

The PT destroyed that myth, at least for me. Midi-chlorians and the immaculate birth were too much to swallow. TPM was a mess, and AOTC left the impression of a huge game trailer.

Anakin Skywalker was, is, and will remain boring. I wonder what GL will do to the OT for the DVD release.

I have the theory that GL identifies with Luke and is po that Han got the fans so he deconstructs the whole story.

 

Thanks Gandolf.

I did PM 2nd Quest requesting an editing but you beat him to it! Had no way to know which of you 4 would be online first, time difference and all, so a random guess.

JB

 

Well, going by your conspiracy theory, Lucas will digitally delete Han Solo and replace him with a gungan...or asteroid shark...or something else just to specifically annoy YOU.


And Anakin isn't an immaculate conception. That refers to the Catholic dogma of Jesus being conceived in the virgin womb of a sinless vessel, and unless you want to speculate on Shmi's sex life, there's no proof for that.

The only thing in common with Jesus and Anakin is no father, that's it.

have the theory that GL identifies with Luke and is po that Han got the fans so he deconstructs the whole story.

I have a theory that little theories help people on these boards get to sleep at night.

Still, think what you want, however, usually, the simplest theory is the best. You don't like certain things in star wars. That hardly means Lucas is on some mad quest to destroy it out of spite.

?

 

I think Anakin Skywalker may be called a lot of things, but I've never heard...boring.

I'm confident EPIII will mature Anakin into the cunning warrior and starpilot that Obi remembered. It won't be as introspective as the EU will make it, for time's sake. It's been kind of sad to watch the Jedi IMO, from what Obi told of them to what we actually see in the PT. Like you, Ben, I didn't expect a group of beings that were so closed off to the rest of the world. I think they were meant to be modeled off of monks, but monks can feel. That's the part that rattled my cage about their dealing with Anakin. Shutting oneself off to feelings can be nothing but destructive. And that's in just one person, imagine a whole culture. I go back to the scene in AOTC when Anakin told his future wife that..."Jedi don't have nightmares...". It lead me to believe that is something that the padawans were taught from an early age. I can't imagine making a child feel inferior for having nightmares for heaven's sake... anyway, thus endeth my rant...

JQ books start very near the end of TPM. They are meant to establish Obi-wan's and Anakin's relationship. There is a lot of Obi/Ani angst as they call it in fan fiction. It appears they have always been somewhat uncomfortable with each other. Obi-Wan because Qui Gon chose Anakin and bonded with him instantly, where Obi and Qui had some personality quirks, and Anakin because he overtries to get Obi's approval, ususally with negative consequences. The last bit is right up until AOTC, with Legacy actually taking place during the Clone Wars. I'm not sure if anymore of them be Clone Wars novellas or not.

The one I absolutely cannot wait for is Jedi Trial. I hope it delves juicily into Anakin, letting us get to know him and what tortures him as it leads into EPIII. Something tells me that's where his trials are. (Duh, I guess) I'm also quite pleased that Stover is writing EPIII novelisation. He can get into character's heads like no one else. I just hope I can keep the will power to NOT buy the novel before the movie!!!!

 

What's fabulous is that Stover will be writing ANakin's fall. And that amkes it ver5y interesting. Salvatore did nothing but some sorry narrative. Stover will get inside of everyone's head. This will be the novelization to own.

 

Maybe I should explain why I consider Anakin boring.

First, we know how he ends before TPM. So we know where he is heading so there little room for speculation (example: we he becomes Darth Vader, so there is no speculation whether he will fall for the dark side or not, we can just speculate why).

Then, he is born without having a father (that may not qualify as an immaculate birth in terms of the catholic church, but to me it strongly points in that direction) and identified as the chosen one. Again a strong religious theme; combined with our knowledge of the OT it leaves even less room for speculation.

Basically, we know what will happen in his life and why (because he's the chosen one).

Compared to Sidious (we don't know how he became a Sith, has been a Jedi, ...) or Obi-Wan or Yoda, who all remain mysterious in more than one way, Anakin's boring.

And a little comment about my theory of GL deconstructing Star Wars. It's just that a theory, I don't car either. And it surely won't influence my sleeping habits.

 

Whilst I may be sceptical about the likelihood, I tend to still hope ep 3 will do as you suggest rhonderoo.

Also, as of right now the Jedi Trial book is the last of the CW stories being done by DR, apparenty set +36 months after the Battle of Geonosis, so on the eve of ep 3 in all likelihood!

JB