Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by son of lucas, May 8, 2003.

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  1. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    They don't want to answer that one, anidan. They might have to actually lower the Tuskens down from their sainthood pedestal and show a little sympathy for a guy whose mother was slowly tortured to death. *rolls eyes*
  2. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah, it's easy to bash fictional characters, isn't it? Rather than think of the lesson we could learn here or what we might do in their place?

    I don't believe this.

    anakin_girl, I've already thought about what I'd do in Anakin's place. In fact, I actually posted what I would do in Anakin's place on this very thread, after you asked what I and others would have done in his place!!!

    Your question and my response are on page three, about half way down.





  3. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "Put in the place of the Tusken a race of people that do nothing but kill and hurt others. Like the Tuskens."

    Do we know that the Tuskens do nothing but kill and hurt others? That's like saying Anakin does nothing but decapitate things.

    "I ask who is more wrong and I'm using Saiyan's here"

    I can't answer the Saiyan question, because I have no idea who the Saiyans are, and I'm not just going to trust one viewpoint. I try not to judge people or things without trying to see things from their side of the issue.

    Edit:
    "They don't want to answer that one, anidan. They might have to actually lower the Tuskens down from their sainthood pedestal and show a little sympathy for a guy whose mother was slowly tortured to death. *rolls eyes*"

    anakin-girl, consider this a warning. I know you would be one of the first people to complain if someone said that you'd have to "lower Anakin down from his sainthood pedestal and show a little sympathy for another species". Comments like that aren't necessary, and don't help anything.
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I would cry, thinking about the pain my mother had suffered. I would hate myself for not seeing her in ten years. I would wonder what I could have done if I'd gone against the rules laid down to me by the Jedi a little earlier. I'd get out of the Tusken village as fast as I could, vowing to find out exactly who did that to my mother.

    I wouldn't blame the entire village for what had been done to my mother, and I certainly would not kill children.


    As far as Anakin was concerned, all the Tuskens there had killed his mother. They had either participated or watched.

    As I said earlier, when you are as blinded by rage as he was, you don't exactly think as clearly as your above post indicates. What he did wasn't right, but it was certainly understandable given that he was blinded by rage.

    And he certainly was perfectly justified in being blinded by rage.

    YodaJeff:

    Do we know that the Tuskens do nothing but kill and hurt others?

    Every indication we've been given in the films show that the Tuskens spend a lot of time killing and hurting others, that they are a dangerous menace to the people of Tatooine. We've seen Anakin do a lot more than decapitate things.

    Also, I never called Anakin a "saint". Saints get on my nerves.
  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    YodaJeff I just put a whole post about some of what the Saiyans are. They are characters form DragonBallZ. They kill people for no reason.


    If you want to know more about Saiyans well you can go here:

    http://www.dragonballz.com/

    I have seen ever SW moive. In ANH the Tuskens attacked Luke for no reason. They Kidnapped and killed Shmi for no reason.

    Also the Tuskens killed all but four men When Cliegg went out after her. They were not going out to kill Tuskens. They were going out to save Shmi. The Tuskens new this so they waited for them to come and killed all but four of the men.

  6. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    As far as Anakin was concerned, all the Tuskens there had killed his mother. They had either participated or watched.

    Well, that's Anakin's decision to make, and it's my decision to call him despicable, wretched and stupid for thinking that.


    As I said earlier, when you are as blinded by rage as he was, you don't exactly think as clearly as your above post indicates.

    Well, I think I'm in a better position to judge how I would act then you are, given that I know myself better then you do.

    What he did wasn't right, but it was certainly understandable given that he was blinded by rage.

    I understand that wretched and despicable individuals can slaughter children in a blind rage.




  7. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I guess I'm somewhat disappointed that I wasn't able to lure the thread originator here to review arguments about what was originally the central proposition of this thread. But in any case, to the business at hand:

    1. Yes, I fault Anakin for getting revenge. Morals aside, the kind of disorder that generates in your society is intolerable for any civilization. Who decides what's worthy of revenge? Or what degree of retaliation is appropriate? The concept of the individual actively "getting revenge" is inviting anarchy, and is thus discouraged for some of the same reasons professional armies discourage war crimes against even their greatest enemies: the breakdown of order/discipline/control. If there was disciplinary action to be meted out against the Tusken Raiders, he was not the one to do it, and nor was Cliegg's posse, but rather the local law enforcement.

    2. Yes, I fault Anakin for the massacre of the Tuskens. Motivations aside, a massacre is a massacre, and killing cold blood several dozens of people with only a melee weapon requires serious derangement. To harken back to the example of the war crime yes, its a war, someone probably did something to provoke those who committed the act. However, that does not excuse the fact that it was a war crime, nor does it justify it, it remains an inappropriate response, as does Anakin's massacre.

    3. Yes, Anakin's rage is somewhat understandable, given what happened to his mother. No, this does not alleviate the seriousness of the crime he committed. Further, that he's not fully adult, young, confused, etc, cannot cover over the entirety of his faults, especially in a case like this. We can't say "don't cry over spilt milk" here, because what he spilled had a bit more of a crimson tone, and there was a lot more of it.

    4. Yes, the Tuskens understood what they were doing. They have a culture and society, as anakin_girl pointed out. As to arguments surrounding their alienness excusing them, see my post on pg 7 (I belive, it might be 8 though) in regards to this. While that makes them no less culpable, what might potentially do so is a lack of understanding of their history with the settlers/farmers, and special mitigating circumstances of their culture.

    5. Arugments regarding the Tuskens being "purely evil" are not justified by the films, in my opinion. It either a)denies them the right to free will or b) implies this "evil" as a basic part of their genetic makeup as a species. The former I think is simply inappropriate, while I attempt to refute the latter in my arguments on pg 7 (it goes both ways, I don't think their alienness really has much to do with this discussion). Further, if they wre to be viewed the same as, say, those mannign the Death Star preparing to destryo Yavin 4, how does the scene that shows Anakin's remorse make sense? It is clear that the issue merits deeper discussion than that write off.

    Conclusion: I think that the problem here is that we have a complete set of information on Anakin, versus only a few tidbits on the Tusken Raiders. Thus, we can condemn both the idea of massacre, and in Anakin's specific case, Anakin's massacre of the Tuskens. However, while we can condemn the general idea of posse action, torture, and cruelty that we saw from the Tuskens, we don't have enough information yet to condemn the Tusken's specific case of torturing Shmi. Just not knowing, we can't "seal the deal" regarding the Tuskens. Especially if one accepts the axiom "innocent until proven. . .". At least, that's what I think about it.
  8. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin didn't make a decision--he just acted.

    And name-calling isn't debating. I didn't start out posting on this thread to respond to nastiness, and I don't appreciate the nastiness being thrown my way.

  9. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Anakin didn't make a decision--he just acted.

    Anakin didn't have to do what he did. he chose to do what he did.

    And name-calling isn't debating. I didn't start out posting on this thread to respond to nastiness, and I don't appreciate the nastiness being thrown my way.

    Who are you talking too? All of my labels and harsh words have been directed at Anakin and Padme, and I've repeatedly said why I feel the way I do.
  10. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Putting a label on someone isn't debating.

    It's one thing to say you think the women and children are innocent and therefore you don't like the fact that he killed them--it's another thing to call him names for doing it. That's not a debate technique. The Forensic Society would take off points.
  11. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    I'm pretty sure the Forensic Society would take off points for some of the things you've said too.

    In other words, let's get back on topic, please. Let's try to be polite to each other, and let's try to have a nice, civil discussion. :)
  12. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I'm pretty sure the Forensic Society would take off points for some of the things you've said too.

    Probably so, but I was getting burned by all the heat coming in my direction.

    In other words, let's get back on topic, please. Let's try to be polite to each other, and let's try to have a nice, civil discussion.

    Works for me. I'll be happy to hold up my end of that.
  13. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Putting a label on someone isn't debating.

    Which is why I've made sure to do more then simply label Anakin.

    It's one thing to say you think the women and children are innocent and therefore you don't like the fact that he killed them--

    I've never said that

    it's another thing to call him names for doing it. That's not a debate technique. The Forensic Society would take off points.

    You call it name calling, I call it labelling. Labelling can be useful in a debate.

    And I'd still like to know who you were refering to when you said:

    I didn't start out posting on this thread to respond to nastiness, and I don't appreciate the nastiness being thrown my way.

    Howevere, you can PM that answer to me, because I feel I've spent enough time on this thread discussing posters rather then the actual topic.
  14. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    2. Yes, I fault Anakin for the massacre of the Tuskens. Motivations aside, a massacre is a massacre, and killing cold blood several dozens of people with only a melee weapon requires serious derangement.

    Didn't *anyone* here read my post on page ten? He didn't use a weapon. That's the point. With a weapon alone, he would have died. He used the force. The men attacked him, and when he was attacking them, he felt a tremendous upsurge in the force. All of a sudden he was tapping the darkside fully.

    He rolled an enormous boulder (the size of a house) off the top of the cliff, and it fell 150 feet or whatever, on the hutt that the women and kids had hid in. He didn't cut them down. He used the force to make a boulder cruch them.
    It is horrible too, but it's not like he dismembered the kids one by one. He stabbed one woman, but the rest hid in the hutt, and were crushed. He was horrified when the energy went away. He started down the dark path that day.
  15. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Tiershon_Fett, all of that is EU, and is therefore not considered to be canon by many people.
  16. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    But it's the closest thing we have.

    We can certainly rely on that before we can rely on any assumptions made by fans on exactly how Anakin went about slaughtering each Tusken.
  17. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    But it's the closest thing we have.

    We can certainly rely on that before we can rely on any assumptions made by fans on exactly how Anakin went about slaughtering each Tusken.


    Well, I don't want to start a debate on the validity of EU, so I'll say that my opinion of Anakin remains the same whether he slaughtered the villagers with a lightsabre or slaughtered them by crushing them all to death, or by some combination of the two.

  18. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Jen X: Why do you watch the prequels at all then? You know what they are about. Don't watch EpIII. You will hate it. You know that the PT is about the Clone Wars,, and Vader's back story. Don't be so surprised that he isn't a boy scout.
  19. FuzzyRatt Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 3
    Calm, at peace, to YodaJett you should listen. This has become a lot more heated than when I last looked in. An a lot longer. Three pages longer.

    First:
    **applauds obaona** (good post a few pages ago.)
    **applauds Jabba-wocky** (long post I just read)
    **applauds Tiershon_Fett** (you post mostly EU-free was well done.)

    Second:
    I will answer the DBZ post. Destroying the Saiyan race (or the Tuskens) so they can not kill in the future, does not make it right. In real history that arguement has been used before. War crimes is a common label for these acts. Evil is another.

    Third:
    The Tuskens Raiders are a savage, evil race in the Star Wars galaxy. I do not and will not defend what they do to Shmi. I do feel that Anakin was right to kill every warrior in that village. (male or female) It is when he chased down the fleeing women and children that I feel he became as evil as them. I would also note that anyone that feels at torturing Shmi was a sacred ritual also creeps me out.

    Fourth:
    "Tuskens are bad. Anakin is not bad, yet."
    That is the point of the scene, he is becoming worse that the Tusken's have ever dreamed of. (Darth Vader)

    Fifth: (man this is a lot to type) 8-}
    "Anakin didn't spend an entire month chopping off Tusken heads."
    No, he ran out. ;)

    Sixth: (note: must check thread sooner next time.)
    "Anakin didn't make a decision--he just acted."
    "If you chose not do decised--you still have made a choice." (Rush-Fly by Night Album) [face_laugh]

    Seventh: (and last point) :)
    This is a debate, not a personal conflict about the people posting here. All of you have had good points, some I understand and some I don't. I look forward to your next post. :)
  20. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Don't be so surprised that he isn't a boy scout."

    who is surprised he isnt a boy scout? i think he is a despicable indisciminate murderer, and the perfect candidate to become the most evil figure in the history of modern cinema. its just too bad we never got to see any good in him, or the cunning warrior and good friend that Obi Wab described in ANH. it would be far more interesting to see the fall from grace and the loss of a hero. instead he is just a irresponsible, spoiled, murdering creep/stalker who becomes an evil warlord/tyrant/uber-villain. i certainly dont care to see this guy redeemed. he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

    before anyone gets all angry that im saying mean things about Anakin, lets try and remember that we are talking about A FICTIONAL CHARACTER. its not like any of it is going to hurt his feelings. if it hurts your feelings or gets you angry, then perhaps its time to take a deep breath and think about the fact that Anakin does not exist, and maybe you are taking things a tad too seriously.
  21. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    You must keep missing the part where he regrets his actions.

    He never says he's sorry for what he did, he just says as a Jedi he's better than that. What kind of remorese is that. If he was truly remorseful and truly believed what he did was wrong he would report to the Council immediatly and confess everything.

    So far he's not remorseful or sorry for what he's done he's disappointed in himself. He may also intellectually know he's failed as a Jedi, but unless he admits to the one's who are his peers (the jedi) and can judge his actions and the true state of his worthiness than he's not only perpetrated an evil act he's now covering it up.
  22. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Obi-Can: We won't know until Episode III whether or not he confesses to the Council. And as I have mentioned in my previous posts, I believe he should confess to the Council. But you can't use his lack of confession in AOTC as a basis for your idea that he isn't sorry, when he clearly shows remorse in the confession scene. Saying "I know I'm better than this" is remorse.

    DrEvazan: I find it laughable that you are accusing other people of taking a fictional character so seriously when you're the one who is wasting way too much time and energy hating a fictional character and thinking up as many insults for him as possible.

    If you really believe he is a mere fictional character, why don't you try debating the topic at hand, which is what he did, rather than just calling him names? Whether your hatred is directed towards anyone here or not, it is still hatred, and you are still being incredibly rude and making things unpleasant for those of us who don't agree with you. (As an aside, you are not the only one who is doing that--I have discussed the same issue with another poster via PM.)

    I come here to escape real life, where there is certainly plenty of hate and meanness to be found--as part of my job I try to protect children from it, and become frustrated at how often I am unable to do so. I do not come onto Internet message boards to find more hatred and meanness, which is why I've become disgusted at the amount of it here--even if it has not been outright flaming of me as a person (the operative word being "outright"--I'm seeing a lot of camouflaged flames).

    It is one thing if we don't agree on a particular character--you certainly have the right to dislike Anakin Skywalker, and I'm not about to waste my time trying to make you like him, because quite frankly, I don't care--however, you have been mean and rude to me ever since your first post here just because I've disagreed with you on our perception; whether you have outright said it or not, you have insinuated that I'm an idiot and so is everyone else who has disagreed with you (particularly your comments regarding my "mentality"), and I don't appreciate it at all.

    Now--are we here to civilly discuss the issue of degree of wrongness regarding Anakin's slaughter of the Tusken Raiders, without assigning labels, or is this meant to be an "I Hate Anakin Skywalker and You're Stupid If You Don't" thread--because that is the vibe I'm getting.

    On a more positive note--I appreciate those of you--Obi-Can[/i], Jovieve, FuzzyRatt, YodaJeff, any others I haven't mentioned--who have been willing to disagree without being disagreeable. :)
  23. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    What he did wasn't right, but it was certainly understandable given that he was blinded by rage.
    Well, for me isn't understandable how could he be blinded to the extent of slaughtering an entire communitiy. It's straight opposite what he (supposedly) learned from Shmi and the Jedi. I don't think he should be condemned forever, but I also don't think he should be justified.

    If you were a Tusken woman, would you watch an innocent person be brutally tortured by your clansmen over a period of a month?
    If you were (just for example) a Muslim woman, could you do anything else? I'm just trying to point out that we din't know anything about the Tuskens' social life, so we can't judge the women and childdren based on what the men did.

    They knew exactly what they were doing, and what they did was far more cold and calculated than what Anakin did.
    How d you know? Do you see into the Tuskens' heads? The men were portreyed as very primitive and aggressive (seemingly towards all other races/ppl settled there) humanoids, and we don't know anything beyound that. Are they thinking about what they're doing? I don't think so. What's cold and calculated about it?

    After all, do think what the Tuskens did is terrible. I feel more sympathy for Anakin than for the Tuskens. But hey, what Anakin did is terrible to. And a_g, I too think some ppl here are biased against Anakin, but I feel you are just as biased towards Anakin.

    (Note: my opinion is based strictly on the movies. So I don't care what was explaind in the novelization, because when I think about AOTC I think abut the movie.)
  24. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Well, for me isn't understandable how could he be blinded to the extent of slaughtering an entire communitiy.

    I don't like it, but I see it as it happened so quickly that he didn't have time to calm down and think about what he was doing. And I can't honestly say what I would do if I found my mother brutally tortured to death in the middle of some camp, and I had the Force and a lightsaber.

    If you were (just for example) a Muslim woman, could you do anything else?

    Maybe it's because I'm a feminist, but I really don't buy into that argument. The only way the women didn't have a choice would be if the men would beat them as a consequence--in which case, the men become even more brutal in my eyes.

    I won't defend what Anakin did to the children--period. However, the women were adults.

    The men were portreyed as very primitive and aggressive (seemingly towards all other races/ppl settled there) humanoids, and we don't know anything beyound that. Are they thinking about what they're doing? I don't think so. What's cold and calculated about it?

    The fact that they spent an entire month torturing her indicates to me that it was cold and calculated.

    After all, do think what the Tuskens did is terrible. I feel more sympathy for Anakin than for the Tuskens.

    THANK YOU! If I've been asking my detrimenters to do anything at all (besides be polite and civil), it has been this.

    But hey, what Anakin did is terrible to.

    Conceded.

    And a_g, I too think some ppl here are biased against Anakin, but I feel you are just as biased towards Anakin.

    Anyone who wants to know why I like Anakin is free to look at my bio--but here's the shortened version: I see Anakin's story as the story of Every Man and his choices, good and bad, and I see what happened to him as the story of what can happen to all of us if we make the wrong choices--I think Lucas is trying to show that there is a Vader in all of us. (Some people's inner Vaders show themselves on these boards every day, including mine more often than I would like.) I have been fascinated with Anakin ever since I first saw ROTJ back in 1983--I wanted to know how he got that way. I want to understand.

    This may make me a little biased; however, I certainly don't think it makes me as biased as those who are spewing hatred and name-calling.
  25. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    "Anakin didn't have to do what he did. he chose to do what he did."

    People don't always choose their actions; sometimes they simply act in desperation. Once he'd cut down the Tuskens outside the tent (who obviously knew about the bound and beaten woman inside) and the Tusken who rushed him, it probably -- willingly or not -- slipped from his conscious control. Regardless of right or wrong, not all behavior is "chosen".

    Killing the children was obviously the extreme and terrible consequence of Anakin's actions, but the adults were willing parties to what happened to Shmi, be it by grabbing her in the desert, flogging her in the tent, or by knowing about it and doing nothing. By that point if they'd tried to apologize to Anakin he wouldn't have been able to regain control of himself long enough to care.
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