Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by son of lucas, May 8, 2003.

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  1. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Its ridiculous to say that the Tuskens are evil or monsters, this is an entire race of people.
    And as for who's guilty in the Tusken camp - well we just don't know, that is never revealed to us, it may be that only a few of the soldiers knew of Shmi's torture.

    And what of the wider consequences of Anakin's action - how many did he kill - 100? 200? How will the sons of those murdered mothers react, and the relatives of those murdered children? Their anger is understandable too. Anakin's action has affected many more hundred Tuskens, what will they do, it seems very likely that the conflict between Tuskens and farmers will escalate wildly now.

    As for Padme's reaction - I just don't get Padme, her behavior never makes sense, I don't know if its the acting or if its the script, she doesn't strike me as a well drawn character.
    She's supposed to care for people so much and yet she seems to fall in love with this guy after he's admitted slaughtering a whole village. And then she marries him. ?[face_plain]


    g
  2. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    And what of the wider consequences of Anakin's action - how many did he kill - 100? 200? How will the sons of those murdered mothers react, and the relatives of those murdered children? Their anger is understandable too.

    You've got a very good point there, gez. And as I've said before, I certainly don't think what Anakin did was OK by any means. I'm not endorsing it. I think he should have acted differently. But again, I'm not willing to judge him, because after finding out a tribe had tortured my mother for a month for fun, I'm not sure how I'd react. Hopefully not the same way--but I'm not willing to say so for sure.

    A couple of questions you've brought up--I won't call them "assumptions", because I can't tell whether or not you're assuming--I have to refute. I don't really think there were hundreds in that camp. Not from what I saw when Anakin approached the camp. Twenty or thirty probably, but not hundreds. Also, I have a hard time believing that a woman could be tied to a pole in a tent and being tortured without everyone in the camp knowing about it. The children I'll excuse from not doing anything, but not the adults.
  3. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    i am directing hatred at no one a_g, including Anakin. i have described him and his actions and characteristics just as Geroge Lucas has shown them in his film. i dont hate Anakin. i dont hate you, i dont hate anyone. if it is uncivil to you to read descriptions of Anakin, the future Darth Vader as a despicable person who does despicable things, im not sure how to help you. he goes on to torture and kill many in the films that follow. i hope you will be able to handle it and hopefully it wont make things "unpleasant" for you.
  4. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Also, I have a hard time believing that a woman could be tied to a pole in a tent and being tortured without everyone in the camp knowing about it. The children I'll excuse from not doing anything, but not the adults."

    lets not call that an "assumption" either.

    so now you are trying to justify Anakin's murder of the women? here ill help you with why Anakin was justified in killing the children too! many children are tried as adults in certain cases. voila! Anakin has no reason to feel remorse. he was right to kill the women, and the children too!
  5. DARTH_FLACCID Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 1
    I haven't bothered reading all of this thread, but has anyone suggested that maybe the Tuskens were manipulated into torturing Shmi? perhaps by someone who wants to push Anakin over the edge?

    but let's assume that didn't happen. Shmi was kidnapped by Tuskens who only wanted to torture her for kicks. They were evil. (The fact that I have to come out and say this obvious point is a bit baffling, but it appears that if I don't I'll be called pro-Tusken)

    Does that justify what Anakin did? Are crimes of passion justified? Does later regret make any crimes of passion justified?

    I accept that Anakin regrets his actions. But they were still evil. Smart people can do stupid things and good people can do evil. At the end of RotJ, I'm sure Anakin regrets his life, all the evil he did. Can we agree that most of his life (meaning, his time as Vader) was evil?

    Has anyone ever heard the saying "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"?

    hypothetical:
    After Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens, he takes his mother's body back to the Lars homestead. The next day, another group of Tuskens find the camp and see their own kind, chopped up into pieces, including women and children. They don't see any reason for this slaughter, and therefore begin to hunt for the responsible parties. On their way, they run into Jawas, other Tusken tribes, humans, and assorted EU charaters, attacking all of the above because they're filled with rage at the senseless slaughter they found. Is that making Tatooine a better place?

    how about this: bad people don't DESERVE to be tortured or killed. Given that GL is at least somewhat liberal, he probably believes that even the death penalty is wrong. Therefore, he thinks that Anakin's revenge is evil.

  6. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    DrEvazan:

    1. Somehow I don't think you are interesting in "helping" me, as your derisive posts, in which you talk to me in a rude, hateful, condemning tone, like I'm a three year old, indicate.

    2. Even if you were, I don't need "help" any more than you do.

    3. You have not "described Anakin as George Lucas has portrayed him". George Lucas portrayed him more sympathetically than you have described him. Of course it's all in the eye of the viewer anyway, so neither of us can really say "This is how George Lucas portrayed him." We saw the same movie and interpreted it different ways.

    I have an interview on tape in which George Lucas says that after the prequels, we will view Darth Vader in a more sympathetic light. From this I base my idea on how I think Lucas intended us to view Anakin in AOTC. But I haven't asked Lucas myself and neither have you.

    4. Anakin is not Darth Vader yet.

    5. I did not "justify" Anakin's murder of the women. No one deserves to be murdered--especially not Shmi Skywalker. However, I did say that the women should have untied Shmi. Did they deserve to die? No. But were they as innocent as Anakin's mother? Absolutely not.

    6. Regarding your tone in your last post--see point 1.

    DARTHFLACCID: Good post. Very neutral and objective.

    I haven't bothered reading all of this thread, but has anyone suggested that maybe the Tuskens were manipulated into torturing Shmi? perhaps by someone who wants to push Anakin over the edge?

    I don't think this is the case, but I'm certainly open to finding out otherwise in Episode III. If it is the case, it would change my opinion, but only slightly--I would be angry at the manipulator, which I'm assuming would be Palpatine in this theory, and I already dislike him.

  7. DARTH_FLACCID Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 1
    pardon me for butting in, a_g:

    I did not "justify" Anakin's murder of the women. No one deserves to be murdered--especially not Shmi Skywalker.

    why especially not her? what makes her special?

    However, I did say that the women should have untied Shmi. Did they deserve to die? No. But were they as innocent as Anakin's mother? Absolutely not.

    I couldn't help but notice that the Tusken women are dressed almost in burqas, like some Muslim women are dressed. If GL is trying to draw this comparision, what if the Tusken culture is such that it is totally oppressive to women, like the Taliban was in Afghanistan? Should the Tusken women still have tried to help Shmi, when they know that anyone who raises their voice to a male will be killed? If that's the case, are they now more innocent? (Again, this is conjecture)
  8. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Shmi's innocence is never put into question in the prequels. She was out picking mushrooms when the Tuskens decided to kidnap her.

    I don't believe you can read too much into costuming. Lucas just needed a way to distinguish the women and children from the men. I don't believe it alludes to Muslim culture in anyway. It has more to with the harshness of the environment. The Tusken women and children are victims of association. They were at the scene of the crime when Anakin decided to attack.

    By contrast, Shmi was by herself, completely defenseless. There was no motivation for her kidnapping, except for the use of her body in some sick tribal ceremony.

    Let's not get too culturally relativistic here. It's a trap that has to be avoided when talking about the Star Wars galaxy.

    Next thing you know we'll be talking about independent contractors on the Death Star. ;)

  9. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    hypothetical:
    After Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens, he takes his mother's body back to the Lars homestead. The next day, another group of Tuskens find the camp and see their own kind, chopped up into pieces, including women and children. They don't see any reason for this slaughter, and therefore begin to hunt for the responsible parties. On their way, they run into Jawas, other Tusken tribes, humans, and assorted EU charaters, attacking all of the above because they're filled with rage at the senseless slaughter they found. Is that making Tatooine a better place?


    Excellent point DF, this is the sort of thing I'm thinking, Anakin's actions could have long term consequences for the Tuskens and the farmers, endless reprisal killings.

    I too have wondered if the Tuskens were manipulated by someone, in fact I thought this was going to be a revelation in the film.
    Anakin is essentially a super-powered policeman, he has abused his power and done great damage to the Jedi. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility as they say.

    I have a problem with this scene from a storytelling point of view too - Anakin has just confessed to this diabolical thing and then we're supposed to believe that he can shift emotional gear as soon as Padme declares they're going to save OWK. It just doesn't seem right.

    g
  10. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    And I can't honestly say what I would do if I found my mother brutally tortured to death in the middle of some camp, and I had the Force and a lightsaber.
    Well, one thing I can honestly say that if I ever did the same thing as Anakin, it would be my last step towards the DS, not the first. (It doesn't mean I'm any better then Anakin, I'm just not strong enopugh to live with it)

    Maybe it's because I'm a feminist, but I really don't buy into that argument. The only way the women didn't have a choice would be if the men would beat them as a consequence--in which case, the men become even more brutal in my eyes.
    :confused:make it clear pls, if you could visit a Tusken community and found that women live totally under the rule of their husband, like in some Muslim communities, would you still think they should/could help Shmi?

    Another thing, Anakin said 'women and children'. So, while it might be just a stereotype ('hurting women and children is wrong'), but he might said that because he thought the women were innocent. And I'm sure Anakin knows more about the Tuskens then any of us, after all he spent his childhood there.
  11. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Hey, chill, it's just a story. No one here is better than the next. It's not worth it to be thought of, because of a story.

    I don't condone murder. But I understand it. Okay? I understand it. When you are full of rage, you don't think straight. No one knows how they are going to react to trauma until it happens to them. If you have the power you use the power. That's why so many more men than women are murderers. They are bigger and steroner, and when they fly off the handle it is more risky. I don't think every man in jail for murder is evil. They are weak though, and lost control of the situtation. I'm not condoning, I'm stating what I see.

    That is how I see Anakin. He is not a rotten person, but a kid that doesn't really know his own strength, and has been shielded from real consequneces by the reticense of his order. He is weak, but not evil, at this point. He doesn't have much self-control. They say the first person is the hardest to kill, after that, it gets easier. Anakin did his first kill at 12 in self-defesnse. How easy is it at 20?
  12. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
  13. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Fuzzyrat, you continue to lead me into places I dare not go -- but since I'm here.

    Destroying the Saiyan race (or the Tuskens) so they can not kill in the future, does not make it right. In real history that arguement has been used before. War crimes is a common label for these acts. Evil is another.

    True, true.


    Fifth: (man this is a lot to type)
    "Anakin didn't spend an entire month chopping off Tusken heads."
    No, he ran out.


    [face_laugh]


    I don't like it, but I see it as it happened so quickly that he didn't have time to calm down and think about what he was doing.

    But holding onto rage to the point of hunting down women and children, even if he is just reacting, is over-the-edge: insanity at best, evil at worst.


    After all, do think what the Tuskens did is terrible. I feel more sympathy for Anakin than for the Tuskens.

    I never felt sorry for the Tuskens, I just thought Anakin was a sick **** for killing the women and children with minimal regret (though it fits well in the story of Anakin, just illed timed in the story of Anakin). Honestly, though, I think what Padme did was worse. At least Anakin had an excuse (trauma of loosing his mom), what excuse did Padme have for condoning the death of women and children? Some benevolant politician she was.
  14. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Tiershon-Fett, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. I consider Anakin's actions in slaughtering children to be incredibly evil. He lacks the morals that would have put a brake on his rage, (something which is shown in TESB). The fact that he slaughters children does make him a rotten person in my eyes.

    It's no wonder that he becomes a Sith Lord and servant/ally to a man who enslaves the galaxy and helps kill...millions? Billions?
  15. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Stryphe:

    FuzzyRatt led you into this snake pit? You poor thing... :p

    A friend called me "Don Quixote" for staying in here. I guess I just don't like to give up. :(

    Anyway...

    I don't think Anakin was evil yet, although this was definitely the beginning. I do believe he suffered from temporary insanity.

    I'm not sure where you're getting that he suffered "minimal regret". I took his saying that he hated the Tuskens as just that--that he hated them for what they did to his mother--more that he was trying to justify to himself what he did in order to assuage the guilt that he was so obviously feeling, which Padme picked up on. (She did ask, "Ani, what's wrong?", meaning she picked up on the fact that it was something besides grief over his mother. What else would it have been other than guilt?) And I'm not sure Padme was really condoning the deaths--I don't think we saw enough of the movie to know what she really thought. She was horrified listening to Anakin confess to doing it--that was obvious. And he had just found his mother tortured to death so she probably decided now was not the time for lectures.

    JenX:

    First off, thank you for labelling actions rather than people. Your post was much more pleasant to read this time.

    He lacks the morals that would have put a brake on his rage, (something which is shown in TESB).

    I don't think that "morals" are what causes a person to put brakes on their rage. Control does, and yes, Anakin lacks that--which leads him to his fall. I don't know what could have been done differently in his training to make him have more control to be honest, because every time I have brought up any ideas of mine regarding this, I have been told that I can't compare Anakin's training to that of ordinary Earth children because Anakin was a Jedi. Ideas for another thread. Anyway--if a person who has difficulty controlling their anger is an immoral person, then I'm pretty immoral. :(
  16. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    anakin_girl

    I don't think that "morals" are what causes a person to put brakes on their rage. Control does, and yes, Anakin lacks that--which leads him to his fall.

    I'd say that "control" = the brakes. A persons morals are what "tells" them when to apply the brakes. I'd say that Anakin's actions show a lack of control and a twisted sense of morality.

    I don't know what could have been done differently in his training to make him have more control to be honest, because every time I have brought up any ideas of mine regarding this, I have been told that I can't compare Anakin's training to that of ordinary Earth children because Anakin was a Jedi.

    I'd love to discuss this but we don't really have much to go on, unfortunately. How, exactly, did Obi Wan train Anakin? What happened in the ten years between TPM and AOTC? I'd love to have seen a SW film that covered this incredibly important time in Anakin's...ah well :(

    But I'd gladly hear your theories on how Anakin was trained and what you think should have been done differently :)
  17. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I'd say that Anakin's actions show a lack of control and a twisted sense of morality.

    I would agree with you except that Anakin would have had to have been thinking in order to apply his sense of morality to what he was doing...and IMHO, if he had been thinking at the moment, he wouldn't have killed the women and the children. But his being blinded by rage interfered with his thought process. I hope I can say this here without getting in trouble since this is a family friendly board--if I can't, I guess YodaJeff will edit my post--but anyway--I put trying to think when you're in a blind rage along the same lines as trying to think when you're in the middle of The Almighty Act. In other words, not completely possible. All your blood is not exactly in your brain at the moment. I've been that angry, and while, no, I haven't killed anyone (but I've never found my mother tortured to death either), I still know what it's like to be so angry you can't think.

    Does that excuse what he did? No. But it makes it more understandable.

    As far as Anakin's training: No, we don't know what happened, or how he was trained--unfortunately. However, the impression I got was that he was trained just like any Jedi who had been brought to the Temple from birth, and I think he needed something a little different, given that he already knew anger and fear. The other initiates merely had to be taught not to develop anger and fear--Anakin had to have these already-existing emotions worked out of him, and you can't do that the same way you teach someone not to develop them in the first place. This, I believe, was the Council's mistake. Now this is based on the theory that Anakin was trained exactly like the other padawans. But I haven't been given any reason to believe otherwise.
  18. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    I put trying to think when you're in a blind rage along the same lines as trying to think when you're in the middle of The Almighty Act. In other words, not completely possible. All your blood is not exactly in your brain at the moment.

    [face_blush] I've never heard it called that before [face_blush]

    At moments of passion (be it passionate anger or passionate...other things) you can do things you might not ordinarily do, but I feel there are still boundaries that, if crossed, make a person actions evil, and make me question the morality of said person. I just think Anakin crossed that line by...well, miles, to be honest.

    Some examples of things I've done in moments of passion that I could have used to illustarte my point sprang to mind...but this is a family friendly board... [face_blush]

    However, the impression I got was that he was trained just like any Jedi who had been brought to the Temple from birth, and I think he needed something a little different, given that he already knew anger and fear. The other initiates merely had to be taught not to develop anger and fear--Anakin had to have these already-existing emotions worked out of him, and you can't do that the same way you teach someone not to develop them in the first place.

    That's a good theory, but...yeah, it's a shame we have so little to go on. I'd have really loved to have seen more of Anakin's training, more time spent looking at his relationship with Obi Wan, what he learned, what he disagreed with...

    :(
  19. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I've never heard it called that before

    I'm an old fart...I've learned to come up with creative names for such things. :p

    Some examples of things I've done in moments of passion that I could have used to illustarte my point sprang to mind...but this is a family friendly board...

    I've never killed anyone. I have, however, said things to people that I wished I could take back and swallow moments later, and I have frightened people with my anger. And again, this is anger over much less serious things than finding my mother tortured to death.

    He crossed a line...I'm not going to argue with you there. His actions were wrong. I don't want to use the word "evil" but I'm not sure I want to argue that point either. If he were being tried and I were on the jury, I'd want him convicted...but of manslaughter, not premeditated murder. That, I think, is where you come into a difference in culpability between Anakin and the men who murdered his mother. The women and children were, of course, much more innocent.

    That's a good theory, but...yeah, it's a shame we have so little to go on. I'd have really loved to have seen more of Anakin's training, more time spent looking at his relationship with Obi Wan, what he learned, what he disagreed with...

    It was a mistake on Lucas' part, IMHO, not to show us more of that, and not to let us know what happened in the ten years in between. But that's probably a discussion for the Basher's Sanctuary. :)
  20. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    The Almighty Act? What euphemisms we use. . .:p

    Anyway, I've got to join the others in saying kudos on your theory Anakin-girl. Though you know how I feel about the whole incident (or can be reminded quickly by skimming my posts) this is really very tantalizing. You see, it had never occured to me that the other Padawans didn't have exposure to fear and/or anger presumably. While perhaps they saw it, it was always presented as a bad, and "nipped in the bud" so to speak, whereas Ankain must've had extenisve experience with both by age 7, let alone being a slave.

    Although I'm still playing with this whole concept, I've got to say that this one observation puts Anakin in a better light (for me) than anything else said over the last 12 pages. Because while I'm not willing to give him much leeway in regards to his own actions, I can do so very much if it is the case, as you propose (and seems very logical) that he was not properly trained to handle the situation. Especially if you consider that Jedi training to him must have just seemed like surpressing natural emotions, so he would have simply had very little training in managing those feelings. Thus, he would probably be more likely to go into child like tantrums. This is beginning to make some sense to me.

    In any case, I just wanted to say that it seems we haven't examined all the facts of Anakin's case after all. Good job once again, I believe you might have reinvigorated the thread, and brought discussion to a new level. People always say things like this come of diaolgue between conflicting viewpoints. . .
  21. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Jabba-wocky: [face_blush] Thanks! I appreciate it. :) It's a theory I've held for a long time as far as it being a good part of why Anakin turned...sure he made his own choices and he has to be held responsible for that, however, I honestly think things would have been different if he had been trained somewhat less traditionally.
  22. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Well, this is a brutal galaxy. Where people die, and it's the punchline.
    Think of Jabba's skiff, or the death star. Or the podrace. The guy in the podrace died, and his whole family is there, in the deleted scene on DVD. Ha ha, funny.
    How about crunchy storm troopers on Endor?
    People die indiscriminately in the GFFA. It is too large to police. People are bored, and complacency has set in.
    It's like Europe before WWII. In Nazi Germany, the psychos came out of the woodwork, they were poor, and itching for change, and that lead to overzealousness, and outright cruelty. It is human nature.

    The fact is, on a planet like Tatooine, there is marshall law. It's a very violent place, run by the Hutts (gansters running every racket, including slavery). A place where Han can kill a guy in a bar, and walk out, leaving an extra credit tip for the mess. A wretched hive of scum and villainy.

    SW is not America. It is a place where there is oppression, slavery, and all kinds of injustice. It's more like our dark ages or old west than the early 21st century. Basically, the rich people have all the rights and the poor people are used, and exploited like crazy. Not that poor in America aren't, but okay.

    That is the primary reason that I don't hold Anakin to the same standard as I do my contemporaries in America. We have a different mentality, and ours is unique. Even other nations (a majority), have people dying like flies everyday from violence and neglect and poverty.
    Just as America is too preoccupied with itself, ignoring the horrific living conditions of even our neighbors, so too is Coruscant only concerned with status and power.
    Anakin lives a life of battle after battle. He is not really the living paradox that the rest of the Jedi are (namely, pacifists that do nothing but fight, using great martial skill). He is aggresive, because his whole live has been lived aggresively. As the Republic falls apart, and anarchy becomes rampant, Anakin is more comparable to an overzealous cop (like in Training Day), who increasingly feels that all people are evil, and not worth bothering with. Witness his disgust for the patrons of the bar. He is practically sneering at the rif raf.
    His thinking is twisted, as he thinks just because he is a jedi (wears the badge so to speak, he is the ultimate authority) he can dispense justice as he sees fit. He must do alright, or Mace and the others wouldn't trust him so implicitly. But since Anakin has the ear of the ruler of the galaxy, he no longer cares for the little people. He is quickly becoming what he always hated.
  23. FuzzyRatt Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 3
    Darth-Stryphe
    Give in to your dark side...no, you did that already. Well, just follow me. Don't mind the snakes. They only bite a little. :D

    Padme was the big problem for me in that scene. I already know that Anakin falls, I just did not know that Padme would justify it. :(

    The Training of Anakin Skywalker.
    It looks to me like Obi Wan did just as good a job with Anakin, as Yoda did with Dooku.

    I do not understand the Muslim/Tusken thing. I have dated a young Muslim woman some years ago. I would never dare to compare her to a Tusken. If I did she would have beaten me with a gaderffii stick. 8-}
  24. DARTH_FLACCID Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 1
    regarding JenX's and A_G's discussion on morals, don't we learn something about Anakin's morals in the discussion he had by the waterfall on Naboo. I don't have the lines handy but doesn't Anakin say that people should be forced to do the right things? quotes, somebody? anyway, to me that sounds like a young fascist in the making....

    (which is another reason that Padme's love for him is hard to understand, they obviously have different politicals and that should be an important thing for her)
  25. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    regarding JenX's and A_G's discussion on morals, don't we learn something about Anakin's morals in the discussion he had by the waterfall on Naboo. I don't have the lines handy but doesn't Anakin say that people should be forced to do the right things? quotes, somebody? anyway, to me that sounds like a young fascist in the making....
    But yoru missing one line that Padme said. "Your making fun of me."
    That whole thing was him joking with her.

    (which is another reason that Padme's love for him is hard to understand, they obviously have different politicals and that should be an important thing for her)

    What tpyes of politicals someone believes in does not not hurt someone. Politicals do not play a role in love.
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