Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by son of lucas, May 8, 2003.

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  1. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    My parents have cancelled each other out in every election since 1980. But they've been happily married for over 32 years.

    Politics do not a happy marriage make.
  2. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    FuzzyRatt led you into this snake pit?

    He's constantly leading me into dark places. Soon he will lure me into discussions about EU 8-}


    I don't think Anakin was evil yet, although this was definitely the beginning. I do believe he suffered from temporary insanity

    I can buy that. I do not believe a human being can be purely evil without having a certain degree of sanity issues in question. Granted Anakin wasn't purely evil at this time, he would have taken a whole different path at that point in the movie if he was.


    I'm not sure where you're getting that he suffered "minimal regret".

    He seemed only to regret loosing his cool, not the murders themselves. At least, that's how it came across on screen.


    And I'm not sure Padme was really condoning the deaths--I don't think we saw enough of the movie to know what she really thought.

    But SW is, above all things, a movie. If we are not shown or told it, it is not important. She was too quick to help him justify his actions. It was not "in-character" with a character who risked her life to free her people from slavery, build bridges between humans and aliens (AKA, Gungans) and was willing to risk assassination to make a grand stand for peace.


    And he had just found his mother tortured to death so she probably decided now was not the time for lectures.

    Perhaps, but was it the time to tell him his actions were perfectly normal?


    SW is not America. It is a place where there is oppression, slavery, and all kinds of injustice. It's more like our dark ages or old west than the early 21st century ....
    That is the primary reason that I don't hold Anakin to the same standard as I do my contemporaries in America. We have a different mentality, and ours is unique.


    A good theory, but there are certain facts to take into account. Anakin, while living in the heck-hole that is Tatooine, display more kindness and compassion than most modern people do. Secondly, he spent 51% of his live training to be a "good guy". For someone raised on a harsher world than most of us live in, he had everything going for to turn his attitude around and be better than that.


    The Training of Anakin Skywalker.
    It looks to me like Obi Wan did just as good a job with Anakin, as Yoda did with Dooku.


    Well said, Fuzzy One, a point I've made many times.
  3. Lagniappe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Just a few comments about what others have posted over the last few days?(I have been out of town.)

    Son of Lucas: ?Which seems to be your biggest problem in this thread. Your "understanding" makes you feel like a better person. ?

    Well, since I never said anywhere that I felt I was a ?better? person that anyone, YOU must be interpreting things this way.

    However, I will address the statement in all honesty. Do I think I am a better person for being willing to consider ALL sides of an issue before making blanket judgments about those involved as opposed to someone who will only consider one POV?

    Well, maybe not "better" but perhaps "wiser." I would hope anyone would feel themselves wise to consider all facets of an issue and educate themselves before making decisions that will effect many other lives.

    Now, as to whether you or anyone else posting here would truly only consider one side of an issue is another question. I suspect this is not the case. I suspect my opponents (including you) are making judgments about the Tuskens based upon what we have seen in the films, and are concluding they are ?savage and evil?. So you consider that you HAVE considered their POV. But here is where we differ, for I say we need more evidence from the Tuskans POV before we can draw such broad conclusions.


    ?Humans and Tusken Raiders have been co-existing in a state of mutual destruction for some time. At some point humans have undoubtedly tried to find a peaceful means to keep from being killed. There's no reason to think otherwise given the human's experience with a wide variety of species of hugely varying temperaments. ?

    This is a good point, and worth considering. I will give it some thought, but I still don?t think it justifies concluding that ALL Tuskans are evil, bloodthirsty savages.


    Fuzzyrat: ?The Tuskens Raiders are a savage, evil race in the Star Wars galaxy. ?

    Speculation. We have seen some of them do violent things, but why are you concluding they are universally ?evil??

    ? I would also note that anyone that feels that torturing Shmi was a sacred ritual also creeps me out. ?

    NO ONE has claimed this. Re-read these posts. People have proposed that they Tuskans MAY HAVE tortured Shmi as some part of a ritual?they never said they FELT it was a sacred ritual. VERY different meanings there?.

    The Abstract: ?The Tusken women and children are victims of association. They were at the scene of the crime when Anakin decided to attack.?

    Oh? So all the Germans should have been executed after World War II? Guilt by association is a dangerous precident.

    ?Anakin felt guilt and anger and sadness all at one time, and his only release was to hand the Tuskens their sweet revenge. ?

    Really? His ONLY release. The only answer to violence is more violence? The only answer to hatred is more hatred? No wonder peace in the Middle East eludes humanity with logic like this.


    ? It may have violated the Jedi Code, but I doubt few people could have abstained from judgement if they knew they had the exact kind of power to mete it out. ?

    Several times on this thread I have encountered the idea that one cannot HELP themselves when they are in a rage?that EVERYONE would loose it as Anakin did and have no choice in the matter?simply react. Well, I have been so angry I have literally ?seen red.? So angry that my vision started to fade to blood? And I came to understand why they say ?seeing red.? ?and do you know what I did? I walked away. I left the situation because I could FEEL my control slipping, so I got out as fast as I could. Emotions themselves aren?t ?wrong,? but how you express those emotions can be? Some people have more control than others. Anakin has shown that emotional control is not necessarily a strength for him (despite Jedi training), but to assume that everyone would react as he did, is denying people their knowledge of themselves. Some might reacts as he did. Some would not. We are all different and we tend to know our strengths and weaknesses. I think part
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Lagniappe:

    People have proposed that they Tuskans MAY HAVE tortured Shmi as some part of a ritual?they never said they FELT it was a sacred ritual.

    The words "sacred" were used to describe said ritual--I'll look for the exact post so I can quote it. Also, what's the difference between saying that "the Tuskens may have tortured Shmi as part of a sacred ritual" and "I feel that it was a sacred ritual [according to the Tuskens]"? Just because a person doesn't think that torture is a "sacred ritual" that they themselves would engage in, does not mean it is OK for them to find it excusable that the Tuskens to do so. It's still sick.

    I suspect my opponents (including you) are making judgments about the Tuskens based upon what we have seen in the films, and are concluding they are ?savage and evil?. So you consider that you HAVE considered their POV. But here is where we differ, for I say we need more evidence from the Tuskans POV before we can draw such broad conclusions.

    This could just be a difference between you and me here...but...another example:

    I'm an American, so I have pretty strong feelings about the terrorists of 9/11--as in I don't give a rat's ass what their "justification" was for murdering 3000 of my fellow people without provocation. All I know is that they made a surprise attack, hijacking planes full of people whose greatest crime was flying to California, blowing up buildings full of people whose greatest crime was going to work--and the people were entirely unsuspecting, which makes them different from those in the Tusken camp, who had to have known that their men had an innocent woman tied up inside a tent for a month and were torturing her.

    Does that make me somewhat savage? Vengeful? Probably--and I'll admit that. I'm willing to look at the other side of someone who loses it and murders everyone around him immediately after finding a loved one dead. I'm not willing to look at the other side of someone who calmly and even gladly murders an innocent person (or in the case of the terrorists, many innocent people) in cold blood.

    Most of the time, I'm willing to look at all sides. But not when all the evidence points to the fact that someone (or several people) murdered in cold blood and for fun without prior provocation.

    Well, I have been so angry I have literally ?seen red.? So angry that my vision started to fade to blood? And I came to understand why they say ?seeing red.? ?and do you know what I did? I walked away. I left the situation because I could FEEL my control slipping, so I got out as fast as I could.

    When I have been that angry, my control slipped before I could feel it slipping--it was gone before I knew it. I suspect that this is what happened to Anakin.

    Does that make it right? No. However, it does mean that I understand.

    And I do honestly believe that Anakin did not receive good instructions on how to control his anger from the Jedi. It's not like they were used to dealing with a former slave who already had a lot of pent-up anger. They were used to teaching people not to let it form.
  5. Jovieve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    [face_laugh]

    Anakin-girl

    And the circle is complete. Didn't we just leave the following debate on another thread? LOL!

    However, the impression I got was that he was trained just like any Jedi who had been brought to the Temple from birth,

    I - of course - disagree. [face_mischief] I got the impression that Anakin was given a lot of latitude. Simply from the fact of how strict Qui-Gon was with Obi-Wan in TPM. Obi-Wan only disagreed with Qui-Gon in private, never in public and even when he disagreed, he never disobeyed. He never deviated from what he was told to do. Anakin is all over the place, opening with the scene in Padme's apartment, Obi-Wan's line "We will not go through this exercise again,Anakin." Leads me to believe Anakin has been less than the perfect padawan in the past. And - unlike Qui-Gon who sent Obi-Wan away when he felt he had been disrespectful - Obi-Wan essentially just 'takes it' from Anakin in the apartment scene, dresses him down and then does NOT send him away and is still nice enough to reassure Anakin about Padme's memory of him minutes later. Compare that to TPM where OBI-WAN had to apologize before his master would even address him personally. Anakin flubs almost completely throughout AOTC and all Anakin gets is a smart-@ss comment. He doesn't get sent away, he doesn't seem to get reprimanded (takes Padme back to Naboo). I think he got a LOT of latitude from the Jedi - hence his arrogance.

    and I think he needed something a little different, given that he already knew anger and fear. The other initiates merely had to be taught not to develop anger and fear--

    You can't be TAUGHT not to develop fear - it's almost genetic (humans have natural fears as infants e.g. fear of falling and fear of loud noises) - or anger, you can be taught to control it though.

    Anakin had to have these already-existing emotions worked out of him, and you can't do that the same way you teach someone not to develop them in the first place.

    Exactly, which leads me to believe that Anakin had to have different training. The Jedi are not so naive as to think Anakin could just fit right in. He was already full of fear and anger. The entire Council knew this, no way they would just let his training be 'conventional'.

    It's a REAL shame we don't have anything to show Anakin's critical training years. I'm dying for info, so even though it's not canon, I suffer through PT EU.
  6. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Exactly, which leads me to believe that Anakin had to have different training. The Jedi are not so naive as to think Anakin could just fit right in. He was already full of fear and anger. The entire Council knew this, no way they would just let his training be 'conventional'.

    You're making several assumptions there--and no, we don't see any of his training so neither of us really know for sure. As for the Jedi Council, I think they were plenty naive. They were naive enough not to notice that they had been having lunch with a Sith Master every day for ten years; I definitely think they were naive enough to give Anakin the same training they would give any other initiate. After all, it was the only way they knew to train an apprentice--they had been doing the same for thousands of years.

    I see the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon situation a little different from you--for example, I would have smacked Obi for that "pathetic life form" comment--but I think our different views are probably due to character preference. ;) (Next to Anakin, Qui is my favorite.)
  7. Jovieve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin-girl

    Exactly, which leads me to believe that Anakin had to have different training. The Jedi are not so naive as to think Anakin could just fit right in. He was already full of fear and anger. The entire Council knew this, no way they would just let his training be 'conventional'.

    You're making several assumptions there--and no, we don't see any of his training so neither of us really know for sure.


    Of course, but they're logical assumptions. Yoda's freaking 800 years old. If anyone's seen it all, he has.

    As for the Jedi Council, I think they were plenty naive. They were naive enough not to notice that they had been having lunch with a Sith Master every day for ten years;

    I wouldn't call it naiviety (sp?). The Dark side clouds all things. How can you 'tell' or 'notice' that? How can you suspect someone who's given you no reason to suspect him? We see it from our POV with the foreknowledge of who/what Palpatine is, the characters only see Palpatine as yet another professional politician.

    I definitely think they were naive enough to give Anakin the same training they would give any other initiate. After all, it was the only way they knew to train an apprentice--they had been doing the same for thousands of years.

    And yet they changed and accepted Anakin. Why wouldn't they change Anakin's training as well? Especially for one so talented and so filled with fear and anger? I'm not a teacher, but I have done professional training and someone who's that unusual just screams for specialized training. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

    I see the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon situation a little different from you--for example, I would have smacked Obi for that "pathetic life form" comment--but I think our different views are probably due to character preference. (Next to Anakin, Qui is my favorite.)

    And Obi-Wan only said that to Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon - on the other hand - said DIRECTLY TO Jar-Jar "Are you brainless?" "The ability to speak does not render one intelligent" [face_mischief]
  8. darth-skycrawler Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    I think that you are forgetting a very important factor in Anakin's turn. That factor is Palpatine. Palpatine has constantly been undermining all the teachings that the jedi have given Anakin. Poor Ben is probably shocked at how Anakin became so arrogant. No matter what Ben was teaching Anakin am sure that Palpatine was telling him the opposite. Perhaps if Palpatine had no had such a direct influence Anakin would have ended up differently.

    I would be very wary about mentioning real life politics if I was you Anakin Girl since this can sometimes lead to people hearing things they don't want to hear.

    Well Star Wars is supposed to be black and white. The Tuskens were being their normal savage selfs when they killed Shmi. They were doing an evil act, which has no justification. However, when Anakin decided to slaughter an entire village of people he was doing the exact samething they were doing. There is no doubt that this was also an evil act. Anakin as a Jedi should have been above sinking to their level and acting in a brutal way. He committed mass murder; I cannot see how there can be any justification for this act.
  9. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I think they accepted Anakin only because Obi-Wan said he was training him whether they wanted him to or not.

    I would hope that they made adjustments in Anakin's training--but from what I see of the Council, they tend to be pretty good at burying their collective heads in the sand and being stubborn.

    Cases in point:

    1. Their refusal to acknowledge Qui-Gon's TPM assertions that the Sith had returned. "Nonsense--the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia." (Yeah, and Qui is pulling these claims out of his ass just to shake you up. *rolls eyes*)

    2. Their dismissal of Padme's correct claims that Count Dooku was behind her assassination attempts.

    skycrawler:

    No one mentioned politics--I mentioned September 11. If someone wants to defend Al Qaida and Osama Bin Laden around me, it's going to take an extreme effort on my part to utilise the kind of diplomacy this board requires in my response.

    They are terrorists, and they attacked my country. :mad: There is nothing debatable about that fact.

    Well Star Wars is supposed to be black and white.

    I strongly disagree. If Star Wars were black and white, I wouldn't like it. Star Wars is meant to tell the story of Every Man and the effects and consequences of his decisions. There is nothing black and white about Every Man.

    The Tuskens were being their normal savage selfs when they killed Shmi. They were doing an evil act, which has no justification. However, when Anakin decided to slaughter an entire village of people he was doing the exact samething they were doing.

    No, he wasn't. He was provoked, they weren't.

    There is no doubt that this was also an evil act. Anakin as a Jedi should have been above sinking to their level and acting in a brutal way. He committed mass murder; I cannot see how there can be any justification for this act.

    His mother was tortured to death by the people he murdered. "Justification" is not the word I would use...but it makes the issue a lot more complicated, and makes him not guilty of cold premeditated murder. Manslaughter, yes. But not first-degree murder.
  10. The_Abstract Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    "Oh? So all the Germans should have been executed after World War II? Guilt by association is a dangerous precident."

    I believe in most legal circumstances it's called accessory.



    Again, what's the need to reserve judgementa on the Tuskens. Because we haven't studied their culture enough?

    Give me a break! They're a MADE-UP race of aliens in a FICTIONAL universe. You can't apply anthropological theories to their supposed "culture." They're just extras wrapped in bandageas and robes.

    But if you want to get serious about it, both morally and legally, and apply Star Wars galaxy ethics, you'll lose this case.

    First off, there is no Republic law on Tatooine. It's kill or be killed out there.

    Secondly, there are levels of sentience between races in the Star Wars universe. The Jedi seem to have a particular bias against lower forms of life. And we all know how the Empire feels about non-white humans.

    I doubt the Jedi would find much problem with Anakin killing Tuskens, provided he acted within the bounds of the Jedi Code. If he was protecting the Senator or on some other mission there. I doubt they'd lose sleep over it, given the nature of the race.

    They would find fault in the abandoning of his mission to protect the Senator, his unhealthy attachment to his mother, and his abuse of his Force powers to exact revenge. These all take precedent over the lives of a Tusken tribe.

    Like other people have pointed out, he's probably considered a hero by the people of Tatooine. If they had the power and the numbers, they'd do their best to rid the planet of that scourge as well.


    The burden of proof lies on people who defend the Tuskens. Where are examples of their mercy and care for others? Where is the evidence that their culture promotes anything but violence and a scavanger mentality?
  11. Jovieve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin-girl

    I think they accepted Anakin only because Obi-Wan said he was training him whether they wanted him to or not.

    No, most of the Council believed after Naboo that he needed to be trained. Yoda didn't agree. He was obviously overruled.

    I would hope that they made adjustments in Anakin's training--but from what I see of the Council, they tend to be pretty good at burying their collective heads in the sand and being stubborn.

    Cases in point:

    1. Their refusal to acknowledge Qui-Gon's TPM assertions that the Sith had returned. "Nonsense--the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia." (Yeah, and Qui is pulling these claims out of his ass just to shake you up. *rolls eyes*)


    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. They needed proof and they DID allow Qui-Gon to 'draw out the queen's attacker'. They just seemed to reserve judgement on who the attacker was.

    2. Their dismissal of Padme's correct claims that Count Dooku was behind her assassination attempts.

    This was a poor scene as Padme is not shown as providing any evidence at all for her assertation. She MUST have had something other than a gut feeling to state something so inflammatory in front of the Jedi councillors and the Chancellor but it's never shown. Otherwise it can be taken as just another statement without evidence that the Jedi sorely seem to want. They're just very conservative. And in a such a dynamic galaxy, sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution.
  12. darth-skycrawler Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    I am just saying that every country has its not so finest hour. I strongly believe that any form of killing is wrong and Al Qaida as murderers are evil. I would just like to point out that Britain and America have both carried out terrble acts that we often overlook.


    To go around and kill a village of people is wrong no matter what they have done to you. Anakin killled them in revenge and it was a calculated murder since he had the entire night to ponder his actions. Kenobi could have taken his lightsabre and killed the Tuskens in ANH, but he had a respect for life and merely scared them off.

    I mean that certain individuals may be a bit more grey, but groups as a whole are either evil or good. The empire is evil the rebels good. The sith are evil the jedi good. The geonosions are just insects with a talent for mechanics so killing them is acceptable. The clones are have no emotions. The only characters in the entire saga, who is not either the traditional good guys or traditional bad guys are Anakin, and Boba. Everybody else are seem to born good or born bad. Maul and Palpatine are classic examples of this. You could quite easily have a table with the good guys on the left and the bad guys on the right.

    Abstract just because a person is brutal and barbaric does not mean you have the right to treat them the same way. If you do that then what difference is there between the two of you.

  13. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    skycrawler, I'm honestly not sure we saw the same movie. I see all the characters as complex, even Palpatine, who I would label as "evil" before any of the other characters.

    To go around and kill a village of people is wrong no matter what they have done to you. Anakin killled them in revenge and it was a calculated murder since he had the entire night to ponder his actions.

    What? No he didn't. His mother died, and he immediately took his saber and killed the Tuskens. It was not calculated at all--he just did it. He certainly didn't think about it all night first.

    Kenobi could have taken his lightsabre and killed the Tuskens in ANH, but he had a respect for life and merely scared them off.

    The Tuskens didn't brutally torture Kenobi's mother to death, now did they?

    Jovieve:

    They're just very conservative. And in a such a dynamic galaxy, sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution.

    In this case, no. They could have saved themselves by not erring on the side of caution. They ended up getting destroyed because Palpatine was quicker and more clever than they were.

    And someone like Anakin, who is different, needed very nontraditional, non-conservative training--which is not something I believe he got from such a traditional, conservative Order, based on what I've seen from them in the films. (I don't read JA or consider it canon--to be honest, I don't want to read anything that makes Qui-Gon look like an ass, so I'll stick with the movies.)

    Poor Obi-Wan...he tried. The Council wasn't listening to him either when he told them Anakin wasn't ready for a mission on his own. The Council was just going to do what they wanted to do, and they're stubborn.
  14. Jovieve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    They're just very conservative. And in a such a dynamic galaxy, sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution.

    In this case, no. They could have saved themselves by not erring on the side of caution. They ended up getting destroyed because Palpatine was quicker and more clever than they were.


    Again, how did they know? How COULD they know? There was no way for them to know, so there was nothing they could have done different - logically - to save themselves. Palpatine was very powerful and had spun his web tightly.

    Poor Obi-Wan...he tried. The Council wasn't listening to him either when he told them Anakin wasn't ready for a mission on his own. The Council was just going to do what they wanted to do, and they're stubborn.

    Exactly. Anakin was still too young and untried for any lone mission. Obi-Wan warned the Council - but they decided Anakin had to be cut loose to show his stuff. Anakin certainly thought he was ready. And they were wrong wrong wrong. Conservatively they should have kept the rein on him, but to me, this is another example of the Council being forward and trying to be pro-active and failing, when they should have stuck to their normal conservatism and listened to Obi-Wan.

    **snort** The Jedi are normally conservative? If so, they break from that and agree to train Anakin - and it goes to h--l in a handbasket. They set him on a lone mission years before any other padawan likely would have been, again breaking from a normal conservative bent and again, it comes to grief.

    Maybe the Jedi should have stuck to their conservative guns and then Anakin would still be on Tatooine.
  15. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Well, again, I think the difference between you and me is that I blame the galaxy going to hell in a handbasket on Palpatine, not Anakin.

    Yoda suspected Palpatine. I wouldn't expect a group of normal humans to know there was anything wrong with him, but these were Jedi.

    You're right--he was powerful. And he duped Anakin pretty well too.
  16. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    Palpatine's to good for anyone to catch on to until it's to late
  17. Jovieve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I meant Anakin and the Jedi going to h--l in a handbasket, not the galaxy.

    Palpatine was going to triumph, no matter what. His web was brilliantly hung. No matter which way the Jedi turned, they were trapped. Geonosis and the clone army is a fine example. The Jedi were d--ned if they used the army to interfere with the droid army being collected on Geonosis and d--ned if they didn't.

    Palpatine hid his intent from everyone...but eventually Anakin has to know and be a willing partner.

    Oops, sorry, OT.
  18. FuzzyRatt Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 3
    "Speculation: We have seen some of them do Violent things, but why are you concluding thay are universally 'evil'?"

    For starters, all we have seen are evil Tuskens. It is not impossible for there to be a good Tusken. I just don't feel we will (or need to) see one. The SW galaxy is a Black and White fairy tale. It is not the Story of Every Man. All the characters are larger than life. The things they do impossible to believe. The villians are over the top. It has nothing to do with any real life. The science of SW can not work. The Adventures of Luke Skywalker is a bed time story told on the Big Screen. The bad guyes are even in black ( Vader and The Emperor), and the good guy even gets the girl. It's great, but it is not deep. Unless you think a glass of water is deep.
  19. ShaakRider Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    The SW galaxy is a Black and White fairy tale. It is not the Story of Every Man.

    SW only was a fairy tale. the OT is almost entirely black and white, but the PT is rather greyish imho. On the other hand, I honestly can't see how is it the Story of EveryMan.

    Regarding Anakin's training: it obviously sucked. I think the Jedi were portrayed stupid enough, and the result of the training is poor enough to make me think they didn't bother with elaborating a special training for Anakin. Maybe Qui-Gon would be able to realize the need of it.

    I think that you are forgetting a very important factor in Anakin's turn. That factor is Palpatine. Palpatine has constantly been undermining all the teachings that the jedi have given Anakin
    Yeah. (So Anakin's actual turn will be the consequence of Palp's manipulations, the Jedi's stupidity and his troubled life :mad:)

    I'm not sure where you're getting that he suffered "minimal regret".

    He seemed only to regret loosing his cool, not the murders themselves. At least, that's how it came across on screen.


    I'm glad someone had the same impression as me :)

    And he had just found his mother tortured to death so she probably decided now was not the time for lectures.

    Perhaps, but was it the time to tell him his actions were perfectly normal?


    Yeah, that's the point. In fact I agree with almost everything Darth-Stryphe wrote, with one exception: Yoda made somewhat better job - had Anakin turned only at the age of Dooku, he would still be a Jedi in the OT :p
  20. darth-skycrawler Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    How is Palpatine a complex character. His main goal is to take over the galaxy and has no redeeming qualities. I agree with Fuzzy and think that things are either good or bad. The Geonosians are all bad. The Ewoks are all good. The Gungansa are all good. The Neimodians are all bad. I really think that you try and see too much into the film. Anain is the only greyish character. Do you think that Yoda, Padme or Ben will do anything on screen, which could be seen as morally wrong?


    Anakin Girl if you watch the film you will see Anakin find his mum at night. When he comes out of the tent it is clearly dawn. Therefore the only conclusion must be that he spent the night in the tent. This would have give him ample time to rethink the actions he hd planned. Anakin still had no right to go and slughter the village. By your argument if a criminal kills a person ad ou go and wipe out his entire househod it is unacceptable. This is not the case and is not acceptable by law.
  21. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    skycrawler: I've got the script--Anakin did not sit there all night holding his mother and thinking about what he was going to do. He went ballistic right away.

    As far as Star Wars being complex--I have an interview by George Lucas in which he explains his purpose of "telling an old myth in a new way". It is not a black-and-white story, and if it were, I would not be a fan. Black-and-white stories are boring and mindless. I will explain my story of Every Man theory further later on--I have to go to work right now--but to put it simply, Lucas is showing what can happen to all of us based on the choices we make. We can make the right choices, the way Luke did, or make the wrong ones, the way Anakin did. Outside influences play a part of course, but the story is about choices.
  22. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    ShaakRider:

    Regarding Anakin's training: it obviously sucked. I think the Jedi were portrayed stupid enough, and the result of the training is poor enough to make me think they didn't bother with elaborating a special training for Anakin. Maybe Qui-Gon would be able to realize the need of it.

    Exactly. I saw the way the Jedi handled Anakin's training as an example of a teacher who uses the exact same methods to make all his or her students learn--not taking into account that students have different needs and learning styles. After a ten-year career in public schools, I've seen how disastrous this can be.

    Yeah. (So Anakin's actual turn will be the consequence of Palp's manipulations, the Jedi's stupidity and his troubled life..

    You don't think Palpatine had anything to do with it? You can't be serious.

    Anakin's actual turn will be a consequence of Palpatine's manipulations--without which he never would have turned--as well as the Jedi's stupidity and Anakin's own choices.

    He seemed only to regret loosing his cool, not the murders themselves. At least, that's how it came across on screen.

    Somehow I don't think Anakin would have been sobbing hysterically over regretting losing his cool. I don't usually cry when I regret losing my cool--and I'm a woman. The tears came from regretting the murders.

    Adding to my post this morning to Skycrawler:

    Anakin drove all night looking for the Tusken camp. He arrived there right before dawn. Watch the action in the tent. Shmi dies, he closes her eyes, sets her body down, stands up, and ignites his lightsaber. Then he immediately goes outside and slaughters the Tuskens.
  23. darth-skycrawler Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    The jedi have trained students for 1000 years and only two have ever turned to the darkside. In such a situation you must assume that there is a flaw in the students and not the educational system.

    The jedi treated Anakin in a unique way. Do you think that any other student would be allowed to address his manner in the way Anakin did. Was Luke or Kenobi ever so rude to their masters. The answer is no.

    Anakin thinks that he is better than his master and does not want to listen. How can you help a student,who has little respect for you and only seeks power to change his ways. Anakin Girl what would you have done to change the jedi' training of Anakin.

    Like I said Anakin is the only character who is not black and white. The complex nature of Anakin;s characterisation may make the PT appear more greyish, but once you remove Anakin are there really any grey characters.

    Maybe you could add Luke as well though he never ever did anthing that would be considered morally wrong either. Nobody other characters are this complex.

    Lucas has said that Star Wars is a modern fairy tale. In a fairy tale there are no grey characters, its either the evil stepsister and the good prince or the evil stepmother and the good daughter.

  24. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    SW only was a fairy tale. the OT is almost entirely black and white, but the PT is rather greyish imho.

    Yep.

    And I'm with Fuzzy, Tuskens may not be inherently evil, but they are protrayed as villianous throughout the saga and nothing more. They are brutual and dangerous scavngers.


    Black-and-white stories are boring and mindless.

    I gather you didn't enjoy ANH?
  25. ShaakRider Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    You don't think Palpatine had anything to do with it? You can't be serious.
    Of course he had a lot to do. That's the problem. I mean, not the manipulation itself, but the fact that it takes place during his training.

    and Anakin's own choices.
    Lucas left very little space for those. I got the feeling he tries give to Anakin as little resposibility as he can.

    Somehow I don't think Anakin would have been sobbing hysterically over regretting losing his cool. I don't usually cry when I regret losing my cool--and I'm a woman. The tears came from regretting the murders.
    In fact I think it was more than just losing his cool. He struggled with his hatred even when he confessed Padme the slaughter. He misused his power. He had to realize that he cannot control himself. I do think he knew what he did was terrible and unacceptable, but I don't feel he really cared about those Tuskens. Does it make sense?
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