Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by son of lucas, May 8, 2003.

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  1. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    ANH is my least favorite of the SW movies, Stryphe. I didn't really get into SW until ESB hit the theaters. I thought it was an OK movie before then--and I was a kid, so I enjoyed playing with the toys and getting my mother to fix my hair like Princess Leia's--but if ANH had been the only SW film ever made, and the complexities of Anakin Skywalker's character had not been revealed in ESB and ROTJ, I doubt I would still be a fan.

    skycrawler:

    What would I have done? I would have made allowances for the fact that Anakin was a slave and already had fear and anger. I would have worked two or three times as hard with him on emotional control as I would with the other padawans, who only had to be taught not to develop fear and anger. Instead of telling him "A Jedi must not know fear or anger because it is the path to the Dark Side", I would have told him, "I understand why you're afraid and angry, and those emotions are OK--it is what you do with the fear and anger that might not be OK, so let us teach you how to release it in healthy ways."

    I also might have assigned Anakin two masters--Kenobi and one who was more experienced, such as Yoda.
  2. DARTH_FLACCID Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 1
    I wanted to add something to an earlier post I made. I suggested that maybe the Tuskens were manipulated to torture Shmi, they didn't do it out of pure evil. Of course, there's no evidence for this yet but perhaps this will be revealed. Anyway, I think this would be very useful in showing that Anakin was manipulated towards the Dark Side rather than made his first step there because Shmi was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    My parents have cancelled each other out in every election since 1980. But they've been happily married for over 32 years.

    I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've had several friends whose politics are very important and personal to them so they won't go out w/ those who aren't in the same neighborhood as them. As far as Padme and Anakin go, I'll rewatch the scene in question....

    1. Their refusal to acknowledge Qui-Gon's TPM assertions that the Sith had returned. "Nonsense--the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia." (Yeah, and Qui is pulling these claims out of his ass just to shake you up. *rolls eyes*)

    they didn't use the word "nonsense", to my recollection.

    2. Their dismissal of Padme's correct claims that Count Dooku was behind her assassination attempts.

    it was not a claim, it was a suspicion and she presented no evidence to support it. maybe if they knew she was the star of the movie they'd have listened more closely.

    Kenobi could have taken his lightsabre and killed the Tuskens in ANH, but he had a respect for life and merely scared them off.

    The Tuskens didn't brutally torture Kenobi's mother to death, now did they?


    the only heat-of-the-moment passion we've seen from Obi-Wan is in TPM, after he sees Qui-Gon struck down. but we do see what Luke does in RotJ, where he has his tantrum and takes Vader down. Then he is told by the Emporer to kill Vader and, knowing that Vader has threatened his sister and knowing that the Emporer has sprung a trap to kill all his friends... he refuses to do so. Luke doesn't act out of anger because that leads to the dark side and that's why Luke is better than Anakin.

    Poor Obi-Wan...he tried. The Council wasn't listening to him either when he told them Anakin wasn't ready for a mission on his own. The Council was just going to do what they wanted to do, and they're stubborn.

    wasn't it suggested that Palpatine exerted some influence here?

  3. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Ah, well, I guess that's why we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of (SW related) things, A_G. ANH is a great fairy tale where everything is black and white, and it's the best done movie of that fashion, IMO. It sets the tone for SW and I think it does a good job at it, too. I don't watch SW for deep philosphical plot-lines with lots of grey, and I don't think (based on what I've seen), GL can do them well anyway.

    If I want deep meaning sci-fi with lots of thought provoking grey area I go to Dune, if I want good vs. evil space epics, I go to SW.

    Hmmm, seems I've slipped off topic.
  4. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Anakin girl: "I'm an American, so I have pretty strong feelings about the terrorists of 9/11--as in I don't give a rat's ass what their "justification" was for murdering 3000 of my fellow people without provocation..... which makes them different from those in the Tusken camp, who had to have known that their men had an innocent woman tied up inside a tent for a month and were torturing her."

    And once again, I will try to make myself clear. I never said that ALL the Tuskans are innocent. Certainly those who tortured Shmi are guilty of a callous disregard for life. However, I WILL NOT condemn all those in the camp, nor the whole Tuskan race as bloodthirsty savages based upon what I feel is limited knowledge of their species.

    To tie it into your example of 9/11:

    Certainly, we should hold the terrorists accountable for what happened on 9/11. They made a choice to try and deal with their grievences in a way that was indefensible, brutal and cruel.

    However, that does not mean that I hold ALL Muslims accountable for thier actions. I do not believe in "guilt by association."

    Do you blame all Muslims for the actions of the terrorists? THAT is the point I am trying to make. That one should not condemn ALL Tuskans unilaterally for the actions of some of them. Until I am shown evidence that ALL the Tuskans inclusing women and children and those of other tribes participated in and celebrated Shmi's torture, I will not go there.

    And though I DO blame the terrorists AND hold them guilty *I* personally DO give a rats ass as to what they feel their "justification" may be...whether I agree with it or not ....because if someone doesn't try to address the underlying problems that lead to the terrorits acts, then we will no doubt face more acts of terror in the future.

    You cannot solve a problem by ignoring it...and whether you feel the terrorsts had any "justification" or not, THEY obviously felt they did and they acted upon it. We need to understand WHY they did what they did, in order to prevent it from happening again!

  5. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Stryphe: Hey--I think it's a great thing that people can be fans of the same movies for different reasons. IMHO, it's a sign of a great movie to be able to appeal to many types of people. :)

    Lag:

    However, that does not mean that I hold ALL Muslims accountable for thier actions. I do not believe in "guilt by association."

    Well, I certainly am not going to go there, as far as blaming an entire religious group for what a few fanatics did--I consider myself a Christian in that I believe in God and His Son Jesus Christ, but I would rather be associated with Satan himself than with some of the violent, hateful people who call themselves Christians and commit acts in the name of the same God I claim to worship.

    However...I would blame anyone, Muslim or not, who knew what Osama Bin Laden was up to and did nothing to stop him as being "guilty by association." If Anakin had gone to the other side of Tatooine and killed a tribe of Tuskens who knew absolutely nothing about his mother's death, then I'd be on your side regarding his behavior. However, that isn't what happened. Even the Tuskens in the camp who didn't participate in Shmi's torture--with the exception of the children--had to have known what was going on, and chosen not to act.

    As far as preventing further terrorist attacks--I'm sure you're probably going to think this makes me a horrible person, but my method of prevention would be to put Osama Bin Laden and his cronies in electric chairs and frying their sorry asses. Your being willing to try to understand does make you a nicer and better person than I am, and I'll admit that. I just don't see any reasoning with someone like Osama--or with the Tuskens who tortured Shmi. Or maybe in Osama's case I am too angry to try to understand--and maybe I need some Obi-Wan/Yoda training. :(
  6. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Stryphe: Hey--I think it's a great thing that people can be fans of the same movies for different reasons.

    True, true.

    **refuses to touch 9/11 metaphor with ten foot poll**
  7. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    However, that does not mean that I hold ALL Muslims accountable for thier actions. I do not believe in "guilt by association."

    Anakin only killed the ones related to his mothers death, he didn't look all over Tatooine and kill every Tusken

    But I wouldn't hold Muslims accountable even if I did believe in guilt by association because the terrorists aren't muslim, they use islam as a scape-goat

    Christianity has been used as a scape-goat in the past, I don't see it as being too different

    But understanding why the terrorists do what they do is rather futile, they hate us because we exist. And unless we disarm and basically become the surrender dog France is they'll never be happy
  8. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I saw this somewhere...and I definitely don't want to discuss the Iraq war here, but I thought this was relative:

    "Whether you're for the war or against it, Osama Bin Laden still thinks you're an infidel."

    That says in a nutshell why I'm not interested in reasoning with the real-life Sith Lord.
  9. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    my method of prevention would be to put Osama Bin Laden and his cronies in electric chairs and frying their sorry asses.

    I don't think you're bad, that's a lot nicer then I'd be

    I'd hang Osama upside from a lamp post in New York and let people throw things at him until there was nothing left

    Only difference between that and how Musolini died would be I'd make sure Osama was still alive when they started throwing

    And if someone killed my mother and she died in my arms and especially if she was my only family, I might do something like that, which is why I can relate to Anakin
  10. Frank_Booth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2003
    star 1
    Why would trying to understand the reasons behind the terrorist strike on NYC on 11/9/2001 be considered "reasoning with Bin-Laden"? It sure as hell beats striking out blindly, letting people use your anger for their political agenda as the real life Palpatine you have as your prez right now is doing.

    You might want to check out what Palpy Bush's crony Wolfowitz said in the latest(?) Vanity Fair (just heard it on the radio).

    Oh and just for kicks...

    Tired of all the BS? Check out www.alternet.org

    ;)
  11. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Frank: The reason behind it is that he hates Americans and thinks we're all "infidels". I've seen some of the other listed reasons, too--like he was angry at us over the Camp David Accords, taking in the Shah of Iran, etc.--stuff Jimmy Carter did. But the people in the Trade Center and on those planes had nothing to do with that--they weren't in a position to try to stop it; many of them were not old enough to vote in the late 70s. So Osama Bin Laden did what the Tuskens did to Shmi Skywalker--and there is no reasoning or understanding.
  12. Frank_Booth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2003
    star 1
    Hey, I was not saying he isn't a monster, because he is. No questions there. But look before you leap, so to say. A quote from Nietzsche goes well here:

    "When hunting monsters one should be careful, for when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back at you."

    If you strike out in blind rage and hurt innocents, then you are no better than the monster...
  13. FuzzyRatt Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 3
  14. darth-skycrawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    Before we get back on topic I would just like to say, who has the most weapons of mass destruction and who has used their weapons of mass destrution the most. The next question is, who trained AL Qaeda an gave both them and Saddam their weapons. In world politics there are no good countries. Countries do what they have to for more power. Anakin Girl the way you feel about Bin Laden is the way that many people in Iraq feel about Bush.


    Back to Star Wars I am sure the jedi did make exceptions for Anakin. He was allowed far more freedom than Ben was at an even older age. They also let him off for coming to Geonosis. I am sure any other padawan would have been seriously reprimanded. However, Anakin takes the special treatment he gets as a sign that he is better than everybody. He even looks down to yoda and think his sabre skills are better. You cannot guide someone, who has no respect for you.
  15. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    He was allowed far more freedom than Ben was at an even older age. They also let him off for coming to Geonosis. I am sure any other padawan would have been seriously reprimanded. However, Anakin takes the special treatment he gets as a sign that he is better than everybody.
    Yeah, one more reason, why his training sucks :p He needs more care instead of favouritism. If they allow him everything, because he's the Chosen One, that isn't a special training, that's just another manifestation of their stupidity.
  16. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    I can't believe that this is an actual topic of disagreement. The answer to the question is very simple. As soon as Anakin started slaughtering Tuskens, he was wrong. He didn't kill them to save himself or his mother. He killed them for revenge, plain and simple. To make things worse, he didn't just take vengeance on the people who killed his mother, but he took his wrath out on women and children as well.

    Qui-Gon was dead and he knew that Anakin was wrong. Yoda didn't even know what happened and he sensed that Anakin was wrong. Anakin committed the crime and even he knew that he was wrong. What more can I say?
  17. DARTH_FLACCID Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 1
    I didn't want to touch the 9/11 issue, but it won't go away.

    as A_G rightly states, it would have been worse for Anakin to go all over Tatooine killing every Tusken that he found. But I don't think it would have been much worse, as he killed Tusken children, who most of us seem to agree were innocent.

    As far as preventing further terrorist attacks--I'm sure you're probably going to think this makes me a horrible person, but my method of prevention would be to put Osama Bin Laden and his cronies in electric chairs and frying their sorry asses.

    while I agree that the responsible parties deserve justice, have you considered that this course of action could just lead to more and worse terrorism? by trying to understand the motivation of these people we can understand why they hate us. If we understand why they hate us, perhaps we can convince them that they've been misled.

    There's a program that takes Israeli and Palestinian kids out of their home environment and puts them in a summer camp for several weeks together. When they get there, they hate each other, because that's what they've been raised to do. But by the end of the camp, they realize that they have lots in common and want to work to the solve the problems between their peoples.

    incidentally, saying that some of Bin Laden's reasons for hating the US are "things Jimmy Carter did" is one of the funniest things I've read lately. Even tho I'm a liberal I need to insist that this is one of the things you can justifiably Blame Clinton for (bombing Sudan, bombing Iraq, etc), but please don't forget Bush and Reagan. And all of us, to a degree; who put these people in office?

    (please note I said "to a degree"; I don't want anyone saying I'm justifying 9/11 as I feel it was a totally despicable act (as was the torture of Shmi))

    getting back on topic.... like I said before, the slaughter of the Tuskens probably doesn't do anything good for human-Tusken relations and would probably lead to more slaughters.

    I know this is conjecture and there's ZERO evidence to support it, but let's assume that the Tuskens were set up to capture and torture Shmi. If Anakin tries to get some answers from them instead of slaughtering them, maybe he'd find out who was manipulating him to move towards the Dark Side. Again, just conjecture and maybe Ep III will have nothing to say on this matter....
  18. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    FLACCID: As far as "things Jimmy Carter did"--that's definitely not a complete answer; Bin Laden's reasons involved a few things Carter did but yes, there have been incidents since then and plenty of them, involving both Democrat and Republican Presidents.

    As far as "who put these people in office"--Bin Laden blew up people in New York City and DC, neither of which went for Bush in the 2000 election. He could have blown up the Bank of America building here in Charlotte, NC and been more justified if that were his logic--in fact, we were afraid that was going to happen, and we evacuated uptown Charlotte as soon as we heard about the Trade Center.

    I agree with you that frying Bin Laden might lead to more and worse terrorism--but that doesn't keep me from wanting to do it. I'll admit that I'm a vengeful person.

    I'll also admit that in any discussions on this subject, I've wanted to say to some posters from other countries, "You're not American! How could you possibly understand?" However, I am not going to do that, because I honestly think we (or at least I) need to know what citizens of other countries think of this.

    Digressing here before YodaJeff shuts me and this thread down...

    I won't argue with you about the Tusken kids. There is no excuse for Anakin killing them.

    ...like I said before, the slaughter of the Tuskens probably doesn't do anything good for human-Tusken relations and would probably lead to more slaughters.

    I agree with you, and it's not that I think what Anakin did was the best course of action by any means. Given how I would feel if I found my mother in the condition in which he found his, I can understand why he did it, however.

    As far as your theory about Shmi's torture being manipulated--I don't think that's what happened, but I don't completely discount the possibility either--and you're right; had Anakin remained calm, maybe he could have discovered this if this is what happened. As it is, he played right into Sith hands.
  19. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    I would like to thank everyone who posted recently in this discussion. As we post our views, I think we are beginning to realize that our differences of opinion are somewhat less than first assumed...

    We seem to have many points in common.
  20. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Countries do what they have to for more power. Anakin Girl the way you feel about Bin Laden is the way that many people in Iraq feel about Bush.

    This would be Senate Forum terratory.
  21. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    ^ Agree with Stryphe I do.

    Yeah it really should go over there.
  22. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Which is why I didn't respond to that here.
  23. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    I find myself (strangely enough) agreeing with Anakin-girl at least in one aspect of this topic especially after reading some of these very disturbing, what almost seems like pro-terrorist posts or at least an attempt at trying to understand their plight (I don't care -- not after the trade towers)

    There is no justification for terrorism at any time for any reason. You cant try to justify it or understand it. It is the killing of innocents -- that is always wrong. It's purpose is to gain political leverage by spilling the blood of those who are helpless. It is the worst kind of cowardice and is a savage animalistic act perpetrated by the lowest of human kind. I see the Tuskens as being less savage in this respect because they at least killed Shmi out of ignorance and lack of understanding. The terrorists know what they do is wrong, but decide to perpetrate the crime for their own heavenly award (70 virgins), wealth (bounty for suicide killers) and political power.

    I'm very glad we have a president in office office who will not stand by and wait for it to happen again and who wont make deals with liars to insure peace who then just turn around and covertly continue the same activities and then try to blackmail us for their own gain. I may not agree with all the man's policies, but this one I do.

    Bin-Laden and Anakin are not the same. Bin-Laden and terrorists as I said before, kill for political gain and personal riches. Anakin killed out of blind rage at seeing someone he loved tortured and killed. Therefore, where I think Anakin was wrong and has perpetrated an evil act he is not evil, whereas Bin-Laden and all terrorists are.

    (my political rant for the year)
  24. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
  25. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin Girl the way you feel about Bin Laden is the way that many people in Iraq feel about Bush.

    yea, the baaf (or is it baath?) party members

    The people in Baghdad yelling, "Bush no. 1, Bush no.1" is a lot different tune from what the things people say about bin laden
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