Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by son of lucas, May 8, 2003.
Let's try to keep the (real-life) political discussions in the Senate, please.
Okay...political it may be, but I cannot let Obi-can's statement go without some response.
Obi-can: "...what almost seems like pro-terrorist posts or at least an attempt at trying to understand their plight ..."
Different points of view I suppose, as I see nothing that has been posted as "pro-terrorism" at all. In fact, *I* personally went out of my way to make it clear I condemn what the terrorists did.
Trying to understand WHY your enemy does something in order to try and thwart such attacks or address the underlying issues is NOT the same as supporting their cause or actions.
Or to bring it back to topic...I "understand" why Anakin did what he did, but I don't suppport his actions. However, if Obi-wan were to "understand" why Anakin did what he did, he could take definitive steps to prevent such a loss of control happening again. Knowedge does give you power to change things.
Or to simply the example(and make it less political), when one of my students decides to punch another student, I do not simply punish said student. I try to find out WHY they did what they did in order to prevent such an event from occurring again. I get them to explain their "thinking" in the matter in order to help them better understand the OTHER choices they could have made, what steps they could have used to resolve the situation without resorting to violence, and why the choice they DID will result in unpleasant consequences. Once they understand the reasoning process and the ramificaitons of the choice they made, THEN they receive a detention. And there may be steps that the entire school system itself could take to prevent such events in the future.
Does this mean I support students punching each other? Of course not.
But child psychologists tell us that behavior is much more likely to change if one uses "reasoning" techniques in addition to punishment. Just punishing behavior does NOT change the underlying thinking and mind set.
Of course Anakin is nothing like Osama. One is fictional. One is all too real.
Perhaps I misunderstood or read too much into the comments. You are correct in that we must always look at an enemies motivations and psyche in order to defeat them. HOwever, we don't need to find blame within ourselves just because someone has an irrational hatred and fear of our way of life.
We do have the right and the duty to protect ourselves at all costs no matter anothers perceived injustices or cultural background.
Of course Obi-Wan needs to understand Anakin in order to help him. Thats a one on one long term relationship.
HOwever, do the settlers need to understand the tuskens culture and psychological makeup in order to protect themselves. No! When they know another attack is imminent they are more than justified in carrying out a preliminary attack against the warriors to prevent that attack from happening. All they need to know is where the warriors are, how many there are and how best to defeat them. They can worry about how to rehabilitate the women and children later after the threat is removed. It's called survival.
"Perhaps I misunderstood or read too much into the comments."
The events of 9/11 hit us all (especially Americans) at a very emotional level. Our reactions are VERY strong with regard to what happened, and we tend to respond at a primal level to said events. It is hard to separate our emotional reactions from any discussion of the topic.
Like religion, or abortion or politics...or any subject with very strong emotional content, we have to be especially careful of what we say and how we say it...in order to be clear and rise above the emotional context.
I apologize if my initial posts were not as clear as I would have liked.
I'm not Mace Windy, Quix, or even YodaJeff. But can we pleae leave 9/11 off the AOTC boards. It is something to talk about at The Senate Floor.
If you will read the previous posts, you will realize this was not a "discussion" of the events of 9/11. The mention of 9/11 was being used as an example to make more clear some of the issues relevant to the OT discussion. It has already been requested that the 9/11 issue be left to the Senate Floor, (which I agree with). However, since it was *I* who first used the comparison, I felt that some "miscommunications" needed to be cleared up before the OT discussion could continue.
I don't like leaving people with the wrong impression of what I was trying to say. It tends to lead to further confusion and clouds otherwise interesting discussions.
As far as I am concerned, the issue is now moot, but I won't speak for others.
"Well, maybe not "better" but perhaps "wiser." I would hope anyone would feel themselves wise to consider all facets of an issue and educate themselves before making decisions that will effect many other lives."
Wisdom is relative. There's a line between wisdom and suicidal stupidity (Pierce Brosnan in Mars Attacks! for exaggeration's sake).
Can I ask if your "wisdom" would have allowed you to even consider the possibility that the Tusken Raiders are xenophobes by nature?
If not you must understand that your enlightened view is causing shortsightedness.
Ah, the thread originator.
As to his response ot the nature of the Tuskens, I can't speak for him. But I can say that when I considered, I did not find it plausible. If you are going to use theories that mak scientific assertions about the species, you need to have scientifically-sound evidence, which I have yet to see. I go through this point by point in the second half of a post of mine near the bottom of page 7. I'd be interested to hear your comments regarding it.
Dude...this thread has more lives than a cat.
when I saw that scene, Anakin killing all the Tusken Raiders he saw [eaven the children], it gave me the chills. I mean, I wouldn't of had killed them all, but it was some of the Tusken Raiders fault for holding his mom prisoner for a month! so I wouldn't blame him for killing the adult Tusken Raiders, but blame him for the Women and children, yes!
I think that's the idea, Luke. And the lifeblood of this thread seems to be that some think he was evil for killing the men, also, whereas the argument has also been presented that the women and children would have eventually posed a threat so he wasn't as horrible for killing them as some would have you believe.
I'm with you on the middle ground though--that and I would add that I understand why he went nuts.
"Can I ask if your "wisdom" would have allowed you to even consider the possibility that the Tusken Raiders are xenophobes by nature? "
Son of Lucas.
Go back and reread my comments, for somehow you seem to have overlooked the NUMEROUS times I have mentioned that YES, I conceed the possibility that the Tuskans MAY be nothing more than bloodthirsty xenophonbes...
....however, (and here is where we veer in different directions) I do not presently feel we have been given enough information to conclude that this is a FACT as opposed to a POSSIBILITY.
"If not you must understand that your enlightened view is causing shortsightedness. "
I think you failure to READ what I have actually posted is leading you to make assumptions about what I am trying to express. I would respectually suggest that you read the my comments in their entirity and try to SEE my point of view rather than getting immediately bogged down in the the parts you disagree with...it makes communication much easier.
The only thing thats wrong with it is the fact that when Anakin cuts the Tusken Raider down just before the camera goes into Yoda meditating on the Dark Side there is no blood, if you cut somebody in half you'd have blood spray across your face and clothes but i guess that would have been too Gory for little kids and their parents to see so George Lucas made it less messy.
I agree though that Anakin was wrong,the only good thing that arose from that slaughter was the simple fact that the Tusken Raiders were dead and couldnt kidnap and ritually toture people to death anymore,at least in that area of Tatooine,if the Council had found out about it he would have been expelled from the Jedi Order or at worst executed for that crime.
***Takes gaderffii stick to thread***
FuzzyRatt: "Darn, thing will not die!"
Anakin was not wrong for killing the men. He was wrong for killing the women and children.
The Tusken Raider should have been killed for what they did to Shmi. (By Raiders, I mean all the men who helped capture and torture her.)
That is the point of view I have. It is the main point of view I have read on this thread.
***Take gaderffii stick back to thread***
"How does a creature become "inherently violent?" Even in creatures considered violent, there are very specific situations and biological conditions under which they reach those conditions."
Evolution is, at the same time, purely logical and quirky as hell.
Ex. As a genetic trait women often develop osteoporosis after menopause, a trait I don't believe any other species has.
At first glance it's difficult to guess why a crippling disease like this would be put in our gentic code. The best guess as to why is that it's a method for keeping the grandmothers at home to take care of the kids while the mommies go out looking for new hot studs.
As I said, evolution is quirky.
The why could be anything from as simple the genetic remnants of fighting an even more violent species into extinction to a complicated entaglement of a dozen separate instincts.
I don't know, and I doubt anyone will ever develop a anthropological (xenopological?) history of the Tusken Raiders.
"Given that no creature we know of here or in the SW Galaxy is so generally and absolutely violent as you suggest, why a special case for the Tuskens?"
Actually the Trandoshans have a similar bit a violence towards Wookies. But that's EU so I suppose we'll ignore it.
But, more importantly, it's unlikely too many species would make it far in the galaxy if they went around killing everything they could get away with.
"When Ankain burst out, he appears startled and frightened."
Almost all species are startled by sudden, unexpected movement. This isn't strange. In fact Obi-Wan specifically said in A New Hope that they're easily startled.
"When the warriors charge at Anakin, you can see other Tuskens running away. Again I ask, if there is indeed a genetically encoded violent response to humans, why should they run away, or be afraid. Why should they not be overwhelmed with their "inherently violent" instincts?"
Obviously they have enough sentience for self-preservation. Though not enough to make peace with the humans.
"For that matter, how could they restrain themselves from killing Shmi for a whole month (especially when things appeared they would have kept her still longer, ahd she lived)?"
You've never seen a cat play with its food?
"If their species is indeed unable to have non-violent interactions with humans and other species, why hasn't a formal extermination campaign been launched? After all, there were other Jedi that could have done it besides Anakin, and could have done it legally if this was the case. It would certainly have been in both the interest of the Hutts and their associates. And orbital bombardment would have been more efficient. So if they were truly that much of a danger, why wasn't anything more than a posse formed to take care of them, and then only once an offense has been dealt?"
First, it's made clear that Tatooine is outside of the Jedi and Republic's normal stomping grounds. If they cared enough to go out to Tatooine they also would have cared enough to free the slaves.
Second, the farmers do occassionally "form a posse" and kill Tusken Raiders to drive them back. Obviously they don't kill them all, but the Raiders seem to be, mostly, a moisture farmer problem (given that Tusken Raiders would be afraid of large concentrated numbers).
hey, whats a few dead tuskens to come between great sex?
of some signifigance to this topic as far as whether Tuskens are "animals" or just another race of sentients, see this recent posting to TOS:
"In the aftermath of a battle on the desert moon of Aargonar, Anakin Skywalker finds himself stranded behind enemy lines with the last person in the galaxy that he wants to be with -- fellow Jedi A'Sharad Hett from a Tusken Raider clan on their native Tatooine. For Anakin, their struggle to make it back to the Republic's lines also becomes a test of whether he can control his hatred of the Tuskens, and whether or not he can keep the shameful secret of his murder of the Tusken tribe"
so apparently in the EU, there's a Tusken Jedi....
Many apologies Son of Lucas, I thought this hread had died. Please allow me to respond to your rebuttals, if you will.
First off, I know that no one will ever have a detailed explanation for the Tusken Raiders. However, my point was that with other aliens, like Wookies, Lucas developed the ecology of an entire planet (Kashyyk) to explain their behavior. The EU has followed suit, giving detailed reasons for the behavior of most aliens based on their homeworld and history. So logic would dictate that if the creators of SW intended for an inference of a "violent instinct", they would have provided some explanation to go along with. Their failure to do so suggests a lack of intention.
Further, Tatooine is under control of the Hutts. If the Tusken Raiders were that much of a problem, couldn't the Hutts a formal extermination campaign? After all, they'd be more of a hindrance to them than to anyone else, and did in fact interfere with the Boonta Eve Pod Race. So given this aggravation, why don't the Hutts wipe them out? Or the Jawas? The occasional posse of farmer's doesn't cut it. If they were serious, they would form an army during war season (as was done in many city-states) and make an all out, systematic attack on the Tuskens.
I have seen a cat play with its food. But that's its food. If a cat has an instinct, and the enzymes, hormones, etc are demanding that it fulfill that, it doens't play around a month with it. It does it, then and there. If any animal resisted a true instinctual impulse for over the course of a month, it would have to suggest some higher degree of sentience than you're giving them credit for. If they had a violent insitnct to kill, they should have killed her in the first place, not captured her to begin with.
Further, since we all agree Tuskens can be scared off easily, why such a Draconian solution? Why not just the equivalent of scare crows outside the moisture farms. Not only would xeoncide be an immoral solution, it would be impractical compared to just scaring them.
Finally, I believe this one should seal the deal. If they, and I quote "have enough sentience for self-preservation" you are asserting that they, through the force of will, and employing logic, overcame their supposed "killer instinct." If they have this ability, then they are not the mindless killers you assert, because they can make choices in spite of it. This means they could make the choice not to kill humans. It means they could make the choice for peace. This is much the same potential that humans have. Given this ability, how can you assert that killing them is justified? Its no more justified than genocide of humans.
Speaking of cats...talk about the thread with nine lives...
If they have this ability, then they are not the mindless killers you assert, because they can make choices in spite of it. This means they could make the choice not to kill humans. It means they could make the choice for peace. This is much the same potential that humans have. Given this ability, how can you assert that killing them is justified?
They obviously didn't make the choice for peace, did they? They didn't make the choice not to torture and kill a human woman over the period of a month. So they deserved what they got.