Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

I'm with Lagniappe, many people cannot look beyond what was done to Shmi. No one wants to see an innocent woman tortured to death, no one is saying that was 'right' or 'fair'. But as was said, the Tuskens are a touchy people. It's best to be on the defensive constantly. I too agree with the viewpoint that it looks like the humans there are not indigenous. It looks like the jawas and Tuskens are the people who originated on Tatooine. So, yes the Tuskens might have good reason to be aggressive toward anyone who is not from Tatooine. I thought the same thing in the pod race in AOTC when the Tuskens were taking pot shots at the pods. Suppose you go to your ancient lands - for religious purposes, hunting or just to meet other family units and suddenly some people from somewhere else are tearing through in drag racers or snowmobilers or SUVs - racing through your lands. They're loud, noisy, they scare away game, wear away the ancient landscape, desecrate a religious area, pollute, are a danger...yeah I can see anyone getting PO'd about it. I can see how they might feel threatened by others with a more technological society who are encroaching on 'their' lands. I can see them being very defensive and thus aggressive in defending their territory. It wasn't Shmi's fault, but the Tuskens were just being themselves. It was a clash of cultures and Anakin - with his 10 years of Jedi training - was the only one with the ability to see all of this. Yet when it came time to prove his ability to BE a Jedi, he failed, falling back on violent emotions for 'revenge'. And revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

 

What happened to Shmi was terrible and it was awful that Anakin had to see her suffer so, especially after finding her again.
It was tragic and hurtful and probably further damaged him emotionally by adding loads more guilt on to what he probably already felt.

However, bad things happen everyday to people and because we are civilized and intelligent people we overcome those tragic events without resorting to revenge. The bottom line is that what Anakin did was worse than what the tusken raiders did. I agree that they behaved no better than animals, but neither did he (and therein lies the problem).

The difference being, that Anakin knew better. He had years of jedi training and centuries of ancestrial memory(civilization) to know that his response was evil and wrong. Knowledge of right and wrong is the difference between guilt and not being held accountable for your actions. Therefore Anakin is guilty of mass murder whereas the tuskens are not guilty of murder because they are not capable of understanding what they did was wrong (basically incompetent). In their culture torture is a rite of passage and is sacred (very much like the native American indians).

Anakin is much worse than any tusken could ever be and Shmi would have been devastated by her son's actions, as Padme should have been.

 

I've seen a lot of people falling back on "It's their culture" as a reason for the Tuskens' brutal torture of Shmi--and while you say it's not OK, by excusing their actions with "It's their culture," you are effectively saying that, yes, it is OK--that Shmi shouldn't have "gotten in their way". And I'm not following that point of view at all. Shmi was on her own property minding her own business. She was a gentle woman.

To those of you who are saying that what Anakin did was worse than what the Tuskens did, let me ask you this: would you be more likely to resort to violence if

1) You found your mother tortured to death over a period of a month, or

2) Someone trespassed on your land?

Personally, I would be a lot more likely to pull a gun on someone who beat my mother to death than I would on someone who came onto my property without permission.

Again, I'm not following your logic at all.

Yes, what Anakin did was wrong--he admitted that. He admitted that he shouldn't have acted out of anger. However, people are ready to condemn him to the eternal fires of damnation (which, don't worry, Episode III and the lava pit will do a good job of that for you) without taking into account what happened to him to cause him to act that way.

Like Padme said, being a Jedi doesn't keep him from being a human being who makes mistakes.

And maybe I've misread something into some of your posts, but I've felt rather insulted by the implication of some here that those of us with short fuses (like Anakin and myself) are somehow horrible people just because we don't act like Obi-Wan.

If I found my mother in the condition that Anakin found Shmi, and I had a lightsaber, there would have been a much bigger mess, especially involving the men who tortured her and the women who watched.

 

Allow me, like Lagniappe, to stress that I in no way support what the Tusken Raiders did, or think that it was good of them to do. I realize that might not have been entirely clear during my previous posts, but let me say it now. Also, let me say personally to anidanami, I would encourage you to stay in the discussion, I was enjoying the dialogue, and I'm sorry to see you go (especially if I upset you).

With that out the way, let's proceed:

anakin_girl, I think that your analogy isn't exaclty on point. The human colonists are simply tresspassing as a one time event. They are trying to settle an already inhabited area. The equivalent, I think, would be someone one day taking over your house, and declaring all your possessions theirs. However, you are still correct in that at some level, having your mother killed is still worse.

Again though, that's not the argument anyone is trying to make. What we (or I, anyway) am trying to say is that a retaliatory attack given this occupation is to be expected. And given that the Tuskens don't have the capability to drive out the colonists through direct military confrontation, guerrilla tactics like these are also to be expected. Not approved of, mind you, but expected.

It seems to me, that when judging things for Star Wars, we should look at the "state of war" aspect. After all, as someoen poinetd out, Luke did kill over a million (the skeleton crew) when he blew up the Death Star. And Anakin slaughtered Geonosians in the droid factory without reprecussion, and so on, and so forth. The thing is that in each case, they were explicitl intended to be military engagements. And thus, casualties are expected and acceptable.

To apply that here, I'm saying that the Tusken raid was in their eyes simply that--a calculated raid that was part of an ongiong guerrilla war with the settlers/colonists. Whereas Anakin had no delusions about doing anything but killing. His intent was to murder, blindly and recklessly, to avenge his mother. The result was a massacre (rather than a rout), as their was no "state of war" between Anakin and the Sand People (as a whole). The paranthetical note is to acknowledge the fact, that, as you and others have implied, it may be seen as understandable to kill those who were directly respondible for the incident. However, to extrapolate and apply this to an entire tribe/community is unreasonable, and the primary thing I am objecting to.

I would like to point out that those who say Shmi is innocent of the "colonialist arugments" advanced by myself and others should note that Cliegg, purchased her freedom, and that she from that point on chose to remain on Tatooine as a moisture farmer and colonist.

Finally, let me say kudos to Obi-Can on his well balanced and insightful post. My only gripe is the part about them not "being able to understand what they did was wrong." Given they have culture and societal structure, I think they could. But I do agree that they, at the time they committed the incident, did not understand what they did was wrong. Good day all.

 

I would like to point out that those who say Shmi is innocent of the "colonialist arugments" advanced by myself and others should note that Cliegg, purchased her freedom, and that she from that point on chose to remain on Tatooine as a moisture farmer and colonist.

If you want me to stay I will. With this part I will jsut say this. Where else would she have gone. All she new was Tatooine. She also may nto have even had the money to leave. That was also the 1st time she got to make her know choce. After being a slave foe what maybe 40 years or so she must have loved the freedom of walking about and nto having to worry about someone blowing her up. She did not have to run away or any thing she was free.

2nd

Therefore Anakin is guilty of mass murder whereas the tuskens are not guilty of murder because they are not capable of understanding what they did was wrong (basically incompetent). In their culture torture is a rite of passage and is sacred (very much like the native American indians).

Can we please not bring the Native American's in to this. The Native American's are not torturing people in fact that was not even apart of there culture.

 

Thank you, anidan.

I'm of Irish descent, my husband is an Italian and Apache Indian mix. I certainly don't condone what my Caucasian ancestors did to the Native Americans--in fact, I'm highly ashamed of it. And the Apaches were the most warrior-like tribe in the Americas. However, I am sick of the Tusken/Native American argument.

So my husband's ancestors scalped people. If they were scalping people who were actually attacking them, it was understandable. If they were scalping innocent people (the equivalent of Shmi Lars), then they were just as monstrous as the Tuskens--even though some anonymous Caucasians had invaded their space at some point.

 

I am sick of the Tusken/Native American argument.

Which is why I stick to the "Anakin slaughtered a village full of men, women and children" argument.



What a sick, pathetic, evil character Anakin is.

 

JenX:

How about, instead of the immature name-calling, you explain exactly what you would do if you found out this "village full of men, women, and children" had brutally tortured your mother to death over a period of a month?

Another thing I get sick of is trying to actually have a rational debate on these forums and instead getting insulted and flamed.

I said I would do the same thing Anakin did. You said Anakin was "sick, pathetic, and evil." Therefore, those of us who resemble Anakin in character must be "sick, pathetic, and evil."

Care to actually debate points, or is this going to be an elementary school playground argument?

 

Settle down, everyone.

I haven't seen any flaming yet in this thread. Some of the most recent comments have been getting close, though.

 

How about, instead of the immature name-calling,

Excuse me anakin-girl, but I was not "name calling", I was accurately assigning labels to the character of Anakin Skywalker, and I would prefer it if you wouldn't refer to me as being "immature", especially when you seek to castigate me for name calling.

...explain exactly what you would do if you found out this "village full of men, women, and children" had brutally tortured your mother to death over a period of a month?

I would cry, thinking about the pain my mother had suffered. I would hate myself for not seeing her in ten years. I would wonder what I could have done if I'd gone against the rules laid down to me by the Jedi a little earlier. I'd get out of the Tusken village as fast as I could, vowing to find out exactly who did that to my mother.

I wouldn't blame the entire village for what had been done to my mother, and I certainly would not kill children.

Editted to add

I said I would do the same thing Anakin did. You said Anakin was "sick, pathetic, and evil." Therefore, those of us who resemble Anakin in character must be "sick, pathetic, and evil."

Err, no. Anakin is sick, pathetic and evil because he killed a village full of men, women and children. You haven't, therefore you are not sick, pathetic or evil.

 

I referred to your "accurately" assigning labels as immature, not to you as immature.

So by your logic, if I think someone I work with is a loser, and I say "So-and-so is a loser", am I "accurately assigning labels"?

And as I said, I have compared myself to the character of Anakin, so I don't appreciate the insults being thrown here.

Also, as I said, would you care to actually back up your statements? Are you here to have an argument, or are you here to name-call?

You haven't, therefore you are not sick, pathetic or evil.

As I said in a previous post, if I were in Anakin's situation, which thankfully I haven't been, I would do the same thing--in fact, the Tusken men, and the women who didn't untie Shmi, would not have gotten off so easily--I would have dismembered them first.

As I have also said--I'm beginning to think that you just came in as an opportunity to insult Anakin rather than debate the topic--I have been insulted throughout this thread by the implication that people like Anakin, and like me, who have short fuses, are somehow bad people because we do not act like Obi-Wan Kenobi--because we would not sit lotus-style in the middle of the Tusken camp and get over it.

 

Sorry for so many consecutive posts, but I felt I needed one with things geeting a bit more tense on this thread.

I need to state that I too dislike the comparison to Native Americans, and have tried to avoid it thus far. Although I won't really go into it here (because, as I mentioned in the first post, its a cultural thing more than specfic to Star Wars), I feel ethnic groups in RL should not be equivocated to aliens (as son of lucas said in the beginning of this thread).

I also wanted to clarify here. I agree that (as I've tried to stress in these later posts) the issue revolves around "the state of war" (which is how I interpret "who were actually attacking them"). My argument is simply that conflict could have been ongoing in that area, and thus, such a state of war could have existed. Since we don't know, I'm simply giving them the benefit of the doubt. I do, though, admit, that they can't use the whole "colonialist" issue as continually justfiying aggression (and that my assumption about ongoign conflict might not be correct, as it is simply an assumption. Further, as I said before, my argument is that what the Tuskens did here was not good, but it might be more understandable (read: reasonable) than what Anakin did.

Finally, I do empathize, and I might very well do the same thing Anakin did under the situation. But given everyone has weaknesses, I don't think that the "what would you do" route can be counted as justification for either side. And good points were brought up about Shmi as well. I think in the end, this is the same as the Obi thing we discussed earlier, where it was a simple matter of not being able to understand each other's intentions. Doesn't really "justify" things so much as make them be a logical (if ultimately wrong) conclusion, which has to some extent been the just of all my posts in this topic.

As always, I hope I haven't offended any in any way, and that the spirit of good-natured debate can continue.

Edit: To remove any reference or address to specific users, per YodaJeff's instructions.

 

Let's stop focusing on individual users, please. I think some of you are stretching things a little too far, and are just looking for a fight.

 

Also, as I said, would you care to actually back up your statements?

You asked me to explain what I would do, and I did. You then went back and editted in some more points, which I also addressed.

I think that Anakin is sick because his lose of temper resulted in him massacaring a village full of men, women and children. I feel that if he had a healthier mindset he would have been able to control himself better.

I think he is evil because he slaughtered a village full of men women and children.

I think he is pathetic because his faults will lead to his downfall.

 

Why are you so eager to condemn him, given what happened to his mother? Where is your similar condemnation of the Tusken Raiders? They got off a whole lot less painfully than Shmi did--and Shmi was innocent.

Jabba-wocky: Thank you--your succinct explanations of your points are what I come to these boards for. I don't care if people disagree with me--in fact, I love a good debate. What I can't stand is name-calling, either towards other posters or towards characters, or bashing for the sake of bashing without any rationale to back up arguments.

 

I'm not "eager" to condemn him. And the Tuskens who kidnapped and tortured Shmi did a dispicable thing; a sick, evil and pathetic thing.

 

I'm sorry about I should have kept to my word. I'm bowing out of this thread. It is very offense to me when Native Americans are brought into this.

There are two part's in American histroy that I'm very ashmed of slaver and what some of my ancestors did to Native Americans some of which were also my ancestors.

I like to read American history any one who reads it will find out that the people who came here nearlly got ready of ever last Native American. Something I don't look at in a good light. So I'm bowing out of this thread of good this time.


Edit: All sleep on this and see what I want to do tomorrow.

 

And the Tuskens who kidnapped and tortured Shmi did a dispicable thing; a sick, evil and pathetic thing.

Thank you for at least acknowledging that.

Now, since I honestly don't think you read my earlier posts, I'm going to repeat one thing: I don't think what Anakin did was right. I think that, under the circumstances, given what the Tusken men did to his mother, and the fact that the Tusken women watched and didn't bother to untie her, that what he did was forgivable. Like Padme said, he is a Jedi, but he is human. That's why I don't get your calling him "sick, pathetic, and evil"--especially since you didn't acknowledge until now that the Tuskens' actions were as such.

If he had gone to a Tusken Elementary School and randomly slaughtered kids playing on monkey bars, I would agree with you. If he had gone to a Tusken Retirement Home and randomly slaughtered old people in rocking chairs, I'd agree with you. If he did all this and came back to Padme with a grin saying, "Hey, babe, guess what I did this morning? Check out what I can do with this here saber!" I'd agree with you. However, this is not what happened--and by calling Anakin "sick, pathetic, and evil" (which you certainly seem "eager" to condemn him in my eyes), you're missing this. This is not a black-and-white, absolute situation here.

 

It wasn't that big of a deal, but for sure a step down the wrong path.

 

anakin_girl


Like Padme said, he is a Jedi, but he is human. That's why I don't get your calling him "sick, pathetic, and evil"--especially since you didn't acknowledge until now that the Tuskens' actions were as such.

I believe that someone can be sick, pathetic and evil and still be human. I believe Anakin is all four.

If he had gone to a Tusken Elementary School and randomly slaughtered kids playing on monkey bars, I would agree with you. If he had gone to a Tusken Retirement Home and randomly slaughtered old people in rocking chairs, I'd agree with you. If he did all this and came back to Padme with a grin saying, "Hey, babe, guess what I did this morning? Check out what I can do with this here saber!" I'd agree with you. However, this is not what happened--and by calling Anakin "sick, pathetic, and evil" (which you certainly seem "eager" to condemn him in my eyes), you're missing this.

No, I'm not "missing this", I'm simply disagreeing with you. I've given my reasons for saying what I said and thinking what I think, and I've told you what I would have done in the same circumstances. I saw the same film you did, and if I reach a different conclusion to you it is not because I "missed" something, but because I have a different perspective on things.

I'm not seeking your agreement, and have no problem with the fact that you view things differently to me. I respect your views, and hope you can show me the same respect.

 

I would cry, thinking about the pain my mother had suffered. I would hate myself for not seeing her in ten years. I would wonder what I could have done if I'd gone against the rules laid down to me by the Jedi a little earlier. I'd get out of the Tusken village as fast as I could, vowing to find out exactly who did that to my mother.

This would be the thing to do, certainly. I'll agree with you there.

But this is not how a short-fused person like Anakin acts. And just because someone has a short fuse doesn't make the person evil.

You don't have to agree with me--and I can agree to disagree. My problem with this whole line of posting is that I've felt condemned myself, because I have admitted that I am short-tempered just as Anakin is, I have admitted that I would react similarly to Anakin although it may not be the right thing to do, and I have still felt that people are implying--and not just you, JenX, it's just been most recently you--that anyone who does not behave the way Obi-Wan would behave is inherently evil and deserves to burn.

 

anakin_girl

But this is not how a short-fused person like Anakin acts. And just because someone has a short fuse doesn't make the person evil.

I don't think having a short fuse makes someone evil. I believe slaughtering a village full of men, women and children is evil.

...I have still felt that people are implying--and not just you, JenX, it's just been most recently you--that anyone who does not behave the way Obi-Wan would behave is inherently evil and deserves to burn

I'm sorry you felt that, but I have never implied that Anakin deserves to burn because he doesn't act like Obi Wan. I'm not condemning Anakin for not being like Obi Wan and I don't believe that Anakin is inherently evil. But I do think he is evil.

 

OK, one more question for you and then I'm done. (I've got friends on IM right now who would rip me a new one if they knew I was here..."You've got to stay out of the movie forums. You get riled up every time.")

You said that what the Tuskens did to Shmi was an evil act. Do you think they were evil? And if not, why not?

 

You said that what the Tuskens did to Shmi was an evil act. Do you think they were evil? And if not, why not?

I think that the specific Tuskens who kidnapped and/or tortured Shmi were evil.

 

OK...I think we've at least reached a middle ground here.