Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

We can't say if the tuskens are evil or not, because we don't have enough information on their culture to determine that. However, we know that for Anakin to kill the women and children was an evil act. We know this because of the way he was raised, his culture's mores' and ethics deem these acts as evil.

The tuskens are not animals, otherwise George would not have used the term women and children. I agree that the tuskens behaved no better than animals, but then neither did Anakin (and therein lies the problem).

The difference being, that Anakin knew better. He had years of jedi training and centuries of ancestrial memory(civilization) to know that his response was evil and wrong. Knowledge of right and wrong is the difference here. Therefore, Anakin is guilty of mass murder but, the tuskens are not because they are incapable of understanding what they did was wrong in our culture. They are basically incompetent to judge right or wrong on our terms. In their culture torture is a rite of passage and is sacred, conversely in Anakin's world murdering the innocents (women and children) is morally wrong and deplorable. It was the same as genocide.

To say that this is a result of a short fuse is a pretty weak excuse. Many people have short fuses and have had terrible things happen to them and still manage not to kill a village full of people out of revenge. In addition, Anakin is a Jedi and has had the benefit of the most intense anger management class ever designed. For him to do this is even more inexcusable than for a normal citizen.

I really don't understand people defending this act especially since it's George's intent to give the audience a peek at Anakin's potential for evil and cruelty. It demonstrates quite clearly that Anakin is just barely controlling himself by the thinnest of margins. He can snap at any time and we all know he does.

 

Obi-Can does have a point. I don't think we can say that the Tuskens are evil, because that's assuming that they are capable of anything else towards humans. Which they are obviously not.


"wipe them out, all of them"

 

Obi-Can: Your willingness to defend a species, any species, who wittingly tortured an innocent woman to death in cold blood with the excuse "it's their culture" is beyond disgusting to me. I can't believe that any human being with any kind of heart could excuse such an act the way you just did. And yet you are eager to condemn Anakin to hell because he overreacted and did something terribly wrong after being blinded by grief and rage over his mother's death. And you think there is something wrong with me for sympathizing with Anakin rather than the cold-blooded inhumane murderers of his mother?

I'll just look at this in the best possible light that I know how and assume you are just looking for a reason to judge Anakin as severely as possible. If I look at it any other way, I am not going to be able to avoid feeling personally insulted by what you said--because if a group of savages did to my mother what the Tuskens did to Shmi, I would not let them off as easily as Anakin did.

And I am willing to bet that if Shmi were your mother, you wouldn't be so willing to embrace the poor little innocent Tuskens and their "culture".

 

" Its a shame that the Scene Where Anakin helps Tuskin and was never in The Phantom Menace. It would have shown a huge contrast between the two films."

I agree with you Cieshrap. It would show the true meaning of Anakins Darkside in Attack of the Clones.

 

It would also show that Anakin did not kill the Tuskens because he was out looking for kicks on a Friday night, or because he had some prejudice against Tuskens.

 

"I don't really think of them as 'not human'.
think about it,the Jedi have things in their Order taht are not human.I think Anikan did the wrong thing,yes.That only turned him more towards the Dark Side.If it were me,I would have not slaughtered the women and children.That was '''wrong'''.May the Force be with you!"
Falckon

 

I don't think anyone here is not empathizing with Anakin and Shmi and instead empathizing with the Tuskens. To accuse people of that is absurd. Obviously Anakin and Shmi suffered greatly, and undeservedly, and Anakin's grief, rage, and desire for revenge is totally understandable. We all would feel the same way. It is even forgivable, TO A POINT. And I think that Padme, and certain Anakin apologists here, go way beyond that point.

Judging Anakin does not mean that the Tuskens who captured and tortured Shmi should be excused from being judged. Anything but. They deserve to be judged just as harshly. But do their women and children as well? What did they do, exactly? If Anakin deserves forgiveness, should not have the Tusken women, and particularly the children, whose only likely crime was guilt by association? Apparently to Anakin it was: No, kill them all. I don't believe that Lucas actually condones that type of thinking for a second.

Lucas is not showing us the making of a hero in the PT. He is showing us the making of a villain and a very evil one at that. Regardless of how bad or dangerous the Tuskens were, they still had women and children who most likely did not participate in Shmi's fate. (If we were really meant to think of them as being more like animals, Lucas would have had Anakin refer to them "females" and "young" instead.) Anakin killed the women and children in a rage, he was far more powerful than they were and there was no way they had a chance against him, he knew it, and he didn't stop.

This doesn't make him the slightest bit sociopathic? This is far more than just having a "short fuse."

Perhaps if Padme had stopped to think of it that way just once, she could have still forgiven him -- but she sure as heck should have thought twice about marrying him. You can still forgive someone and NOT decide to say "I truly deeply love you" and jump into an illicit marriage with him. Instead she decided that this guy who slaughtered women and children (no matter the motive) should not only forgiven for it, but he is her choice to be her husband and the father of her own children. Great choice, Padme. She went into it with eyes wide shut and deserves all the misery she has coming to her.

 

I don't think anyone here is not empathizing with Anakin and Shmi and instead empathizing with the Tuskens. To accuse people of that is absurd.

When people are saying that we have "no proof that the Tuskens are evil" and that they tortured Shmi because it was their "culture" and a "sacred ritual", I don't think it's so absurd.

Looks like empathizing with the Tuskens to me.

If Anakin deserves forgiveness, should not have the Tusken women, and particularly the children, whose only likely crime was guilt by association? Apparently to Anakin it was: No, kill them all.

Anakin admitted that what he did was wrong. He wasn't bragging about it--he was sorry. What do you want him to do--use the Force to bring them back to life?

Anakin killed the women and children in a rage, he was far more powerful than they were and there was no way they had a chance against him, he knew it, and he didn't stop.

He was more powerful? Cliegg went out with thirty men and only brought four back, minus one leg. I'd say the Tuskens were pretty powerful.

And as far as him "knowing it" and not stopping--do you have a temper? I do, and believe me, we don't exactly think clearly when we're in that kind of rage.

This doesn't make him the slightest bit sociopathic? This is far more than just having a "short fuse."

Well, I'm a sociopath then--because the Tuskens got off easy compared to what I would have done to them.

 

When people are saying that we have "no proof that the Tuskens are evil" and that they tortured Shmi because it was their "culture" and a "sacred ritual", I don't think it's so absurd.

I agree with this.

 

What proof do we have of the Tuskens being evil? As far as I know, they never decapitated or killed an entire village of Tatooine citizens just because another Tusken was killed or held hostage.

 

Proof that the Tuskens are evil:

1. They kidnapped an innocent woman who was doing nothing more than picking mushrooms off vaporators on her own property.

2. They took her back to their encampment, where they strung her up to a post crucifixion-style.

3. They took turns beating her with gaffee sticks, leaving her with broken bones and internal hemorrhaging.

4. They did this, day in and day out, for a period of a month.

5. They did this for one reason: thrills. Where's my proof of that, you say? Show me what Shmi did to them, and I'll retract my statement.

6. Not only that, but they killed 26 men who went to rescue the woman, and chopped off the woman's husband's legs.

How can you not say they're evil?

And you guys are condemning her son for avenging her death? He's evil but they're not?

I am not following your logic. Not at all.

All I can say is that I hope if my mother is ever tortured to death, none of you are on the jury when her murderers go on trial, or when I go on trial for avenging her death--because you would probably let them off the hook as following a "cultural rite" and send me to the electric chair.

 

/lurk mode:

The Tuskens are true savages in any right... (30 went out...) People are also tring to give 'human'/earth morality to creatures that are not only humanoid donkeys (that's the sound they make!) but to a Sameri Monk (Anakin)...

Me, I would have gone 'tusken encounter' all over their **** had my loved one been in Shmi's posistion.

back to lurk mode.

 

ankin girl,

Do you recall when I told you that if I was of the opinion that you were misinterpreting what I posted I would tell you so? Well, here it is...


"I've seen a lot of people falling back on "It's their culture" as a reason for the Tuskens' brutal torture of Shmi--and while you say it's not OK, by excusing their actions with "It's their culture," you are effectively saying that, yes, it is OK--"



No, I am not. I emphatically said it was NOT okay - but that it might be "understandable" based upon cultural mores or events we are unaware of...

In the same way that you argue that Anakin's actions are "understandable" given the brutal death of his mother.

"Shmi was on her own property minding her own business."

As I and others have pointed out, from the Tuskans POV it may have been THEIR property and she was trespassing.

" She was a gentle woman."

No one is saying she wasn't. I think Shmi was a wonderful character - kind and compassionate - which is why Anakin's actions do her memory no credit.

"To those of you who are saying that what Anakin did was worse than what the Tuskens did, let me ask you this: would you be more likely to resort to violence if

1) You found your mother tortured to death over a period of a month, or

2) Someone trespassed on your land? "

This is a good point, but we don't know if this is the ONLY problems the Tuskans have with the farmers...there may be more going on here.

What I am saying is, don't be so swift to condemn when you only know one side of an issue. What the Tuskans did was terrible, but perhaps they are not simply "coldblooded brutal killers." There may be much more to them.


"Again, I'm not following your logic at all."

So I and others are trying to explain it more clearly to you...do not take this as an attack. No one is trying to imply you are "sick" or anything. We are TRYING to explain our reasoning to you. Don't loose track of what *is* being said by reading messages into posts that aren't there.

"Yes, what Anakin did was wrong--he admitted that. He admitted that he shouldn't have acted out of anger."

Yet, he has not told Obi-wan what he did. My first thought is that, if he is truly so sorry and appauled with his actions, wouldn't he seek the advice and help of his mentor? He speaks to Padme, this is true But it is to Obi-wan that she should turn.

Perhaps he is too ashamed.

Perhaps he is too afraid of the consequences of his actions.

Or perhaps he isn't really all that sorry about the deaths of the Tuskans at all.

I suppose we will find out.

"However, people are ready to condemn him to the eternal fires of damnation ... without taking into account what happened to him to cause him to act that way."

I think most people are fully aware of what happened to him and how terrible it was - and I don't think we are all "condemning him to hell." But given his training in self-control and releasing strong emotions to the force, we are holding him accountable for his actions.

"Like Padme said, being a Jedi doesn't keep him from being a human being who makes mistakes."

Jedi make mistakes, but this goes beyond a mistake. Slaughtering an entire village because of the actions of a few is not merely a "mistake" - it is a terrible act that turns its back on everything the Jedi stand for...

"...but I've felt rather insulted by the implication of some here that those of us with short fuses (like Anakin and myself) are somehow horrible people just because we don't act like Obi-Wan."

I never meant to imply anything along those lines at all. If this is what you are reading in my posts, then I assure you that it was not intended.

 

Is it possible, "anakin girl," that you are not being very objective in this argument? You are beginning to scare me and I doubt you are winning more people over to your point of view. I noticed you didn't even bother to address the main points of my post concerning Padme's blithe dismissal of Anakin's actions, or that Lucas is showing us a villain in the making, not a hero.


Anakin admitted that what he did was wrong. He wasn't bragging about it--he was sorry.

So you actually do admit after all that what he did was wrong and he shouldn't have done it?


What do you want him to do--use the Force to bring them back to life?

I would have wanted him to stop and think "would my mother have really wanted me to do this" when he saw the first Tusken child cowering in a corner and crying. Failing in that, I would have wanted Padme to not be so eager to become his wife afterwards.


He was more powerful? Cliegg went out with thirty men and only brought four back, minus one leg. I'd say the Tuskens were pretty powerful.

Read my post again. I said he was more powerful than the WOMEN and CHILDREN. And yes, he was more powerful than all of the men as well, otherwise he could not have done what he did. Since the men would have been the ones actively defending the camp, he would have dealt with them first, and then the women, and then the children. You saw the film -- when he returned, he wasn't even scratched. The Tuskens were all dead. Do the math and tell me again who was more powerful.


And as far as him "knowing it" and not stopping--do you have a temper? I do, and believe me, we don't exactly think clearly when we're in that kind of rage.

We all have tempers. I believe most tempers stop short of killing every last woman and child we encounter even when we are in a blind rage, even if we associate them with people that killed our mother. A hero would have stopped. Anakin was not a hero. It seems you are trying desperately hard to make him one.


Well, I'm a sociopath then--because the Tuskens got off easy compared to what I would have done to them.

Would you have? Easy for you to say, no doubt. But hunting down and killing all those women and children with a hand weapon would take a good amount of time, even if you were a Jedi. How about when you find some of these children cowering in a corner, crying, and clutching their stuffed toys? (They were sentient beings you know, it's quite possible they had toys and other things human children would have.) In how many encounters like this would you continue to just slice them to pieces? And then hunt down the next one and do the same, or maybe worse? After all, that is what you're saying you'd do. And if you're still really convinced that you would, then I guess there is no real point in continuing this discussion.

 

Anakin-girl,

Obi-Can: Your willingness to defend a species, any species, who wittingly tortured an innocent woman to death in cold blood with the excuse "it's their culture" is beyond disgusting to me.

My first suggestion is not to take this so personally it's a discussion about work of fiction. We just happen to see it differently.

Their are cultures in africa that mutilate and torture their children in rites of maturity (coming of age) many of these children die as a result of these acts. I find this a disgusting practice, but I recognize this is a belief that they hold very strongly. Therefore I would not go over there and condemn them and insist that the whole village be put to death to punish or avenge these barbaric practices. That would make me as barbaric as they are.

I can't believe that any human being with any kind of heart could excuse such an act the way you just did. And yet you are eager to condemn Anakin to hell because he overreacted and did something terribly wrong after being blinded by grief and rage over his mother's death. And you think there is something wrong with me for sympathizing with Anakin rather than the cold-blooded inhumane murderers of his mother?

You call the tusken's inhumane murderers but you dont apply the same standard to Anakin. Whereas they killed one woman he killed a whole village more importantly including the children. So I would ask you to question the worthiness of your heart in this matter.

I'll just look at this in the best possible light that I know how and assume you are just looking for a reason to judge Anakin as severely as possible. If I look at it any other way, I am not going to be able to avoid feeling personally insulted by what you said--because if a group of savages did to my mother what the Tuskens did to Shmi, I would not let them off as easily as Anakin did.

I will apply that same best possible light to your motivations as well. I'm sorry you feel personally insulted but such is life. I will also remind you that this is a fictional story and hypothetical discussion about non-events.

 

I find this funny about the Tusken women. Why did they not do anything to help Shmi?

The women are jsut as gulit for not helping Shmi as are the men who kidnapped and hurt her.

It would be like if I did nothing to stop a group of men and women form killing someone. I'm just as gulit and in more ways then one a lot worse then those people because I could have done something but I did not.

It reminds me of a person who was killed by to guys. There grilfreinds knew what happened. The cops said they had two choics A) Tell the turth and you go free
or
B) Do not tell the turth and you go to jail for the rest of your life.

There was a a made for TV movie about this to it was on MTV if any of you say it you might know what I'm talking about.

Sure the two girls did not kill the guy. But if they did not cmoe out and tell what they knew they would have had to spend the rest of there lives in jail. All because they would have done nothing to the killers.

But hey it would have been there problem. So the Tusken women who dead. Oh well they a hole month to save Shmi but they did not so they got killed.

Anakin killing the children yes that's bad.

Him killing the men and women who Shmi killed or did nothing to stop Shmi form being killed well...

 

All I can say is that I hope if my mother is ever tortured to death, none of you are on the jury when her murderers go on trial, or when I go on trial for avenging her death--because you would probably let them off the hook as following a "cultural rite" and send me to the electric chair.

And all I can say is, you are taking the discussion WAY too personally and the above comment is tasteless and completely uncalled for. Cool off.

 

"I find this funny about the Tusken women. Why did they not do anything to help Shmi?"

I suspect it has to do with Lucas NEEDING Shmi to die in order to motivate Anakin's rage and his first steps towards the dark side. However, that is a rather dry, lifeless, logical explanation - so let's speculate. It's more fun that way!

Perhaps they did, and were cuaght and executed by the tribe for interferring in the affairs of men.

In many nomadic and more "primative" cultures, men are the ones in charge and women do not question (if they know what is good for them.) In a culture as brutal as the Tuskans, it is possible the females would not take any actions against the wises of the males out of fear for their own safety and that of their families...

Or I could be full of it!

 

VCT: If you will read my previous posts, you will see that I have said, multiple times, that what Anakin did to the women and children was wrong.

I did not address the issue you brought up about Padme because I don't find it relevant. We're talking about Anakin and the Tuskens. If you want to argue over whether Padme should have married Anakin, start another thread.

Also, there was nothing in the movie that showed Tusken kids crouched in corners in their PJs holding teddy bears and sucking their thumbs, so don't put it there.

Obi-Can:

Their are cultures in africa that mutilate and torture their children in rites of maturity (coming of age) many of these children die as a result of these acts. I find this a disgusting practice, but I recognize this is a belief that they hold very strongly. Therefore I would not go over there and condemn them and insist that the whole village be put to death to punish or avenge these barbaric practices.

Well, that's a difference between you and me. I have been actively fighting against female genital mutilation for years--I believe I have a duty to womankind to do so. No one should have to endure that. If that makes me "barbaric," then so be it.

You call the tusken's inhumane murderers but you dont apply the same standard to Anakin. Whereas they killed one woman he killed a whole village more importantly including the children. So I would ask you to question the worthiness of your heart in this matter.

They tortured one woman in cold blood. He, as her son, avenged her death--decapitating them with a lightsaber, which is a hell of a better way to go. Again, that doesn't make what he did OK--but it certainly doesn't make him the monster and them the innocents.

And I don't appreciate being flamed. You know absolutely nothing about the "worthiness of my heart".

anidan: I know exactly what movie you're talking about, and your post deserves a round of applause.

VCT:

And all I can say is, you are taking the discussion WAY too personally and the above comment is tasteless and completely uncalled for. Cool off.

No more tasteless than calling the torture of an innocent woman a "sacred ritual". And don't tell me to cool off.

 

anakin_girl...just out of curiosity, which do you think was worse:

a) The kidnap and torture of Shmi, or

b) The killing of the entire Tusken village?

 

The kidnap and torture of Shmi, JenX.

1. She was tortured, and

2. She was innocent.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat as some of you love to do--I am not condoning Anakin's murder of the women and children. I don't think it was OK. I just think you guys are forgetting that among that "entire village" were the men who had a jolly good time beating Shmi to death. You're only seeing Tusken children in their soft bantha PJs sucking their thumbs and playing with stuffed Ewoks...and evil red-eyed Ani baring his fangs coming at them with a lightsaber. I know you think I'm biased...and I could type until my fingers fall off and you're going to continue to believe that because of my screen name. However, even if for argument's sake I am biased--how is the viewpoint I mentioned above any less biased?

 

<exit lurk mode>

The Kidnapping and tourture of Shmi...

<enter lurk mode>

EDIT

You know, I've hated this disscusion since it was first brought up in the original Love story thread... people seemed to use this senerio as an excuse to compleatly criminalize Anakin, (hell, brutalize him). No matter what other people's counter disscussion/aurguments were, people inorexbly went back to this as a sign of the 'ultimate evil' that was Anakin.

IF he were brought to 'Earth justice" for such and action (Assuming that the raiders were indeed human) it would be more like "man slaughter" as apposed to premeditated (cold blooded) murder. He could have plead "Temporary insanity" and would most likely have been granted treatment/freedom in this instance. He WAS remoseful after the fact... The confession scene (one of the most powerful scenes int he entire saga IMHO) Anakin appears to be having a real breakdown... on the verge of true madness and dispare... THATS the reason people like AG and myself defend Anakin in this matter... He's a man pushed to beyond his limits and Padme' is there to comfort him...

And before the "He's had blah blah blah training should Know better blah blah blah didn't tell Obi-Wan (do we KNOW THIS FOR A FACT? We can assume, but as the PT has shown us, assumptions are being turned on their ear...)

Just my two credits.

<return to Lurk mode>

 

The kidnap and torture of Shmi, JenX.

1. She was tortured, and

2. She was innocent.

Ok. Do you consider any of the men, women and children in the Tusken village to be innocent?

 

I'd like everyone here to cool down, please.

 

Anakin-girl,
Well, that's a difference between you and me. I have been actively fighting against female genital mutilation for years--I believe I have a duty to womankind to do so. No one should have to endure that. If that makes me "barbaric," then so be it.

I don't think thats the difference. However, fighting for change is a highly commendable act, but I assume you are not condoning going over to Africa and wiping out the villages that perpetrate these acts. If Anakin would have stopped at the men then his actions would have been understandable and forgivable. However, he is barbaric for killing the innocents who couldn't defend themselves, for not showing compassion and reasonableness and reverting to his animal instincts rather than rising above them.

They tortured one woman in cold blood. He, as her son, avenged her death--decapitating them with a lightsaber, which is a hell of a better way to go. Again, that doesn't make what he did OK--but it certainly doesn't make him the monster and them the innocents.

And I don't appreciate being flamed. You know absolutely nothing about the "worthiness of my heart".

It makes him a monster! Also according to the book, he didn't decapitate the women and the children, he rounded them all up in one of their huts and dropped a huge boulder on them. Such a nice humane way to exterminate a few children don't you think (a nice slow death).

As far as flaming, I was only responding to your previous post that denigrated me for my heartlessness. (You should read some of your own posts, they are very aggressive).

I'm also getting confused, if you agree that what he did was wrong are we just disagreeing on the level of wrongness or his culpability?