Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

Yes....it should have been much longer....the novel goes in to such exquisite detail I was almost disappointed in the movie version....I think what it came down to was this...was George willing to risk a pg-13 rating to show the true scope of what Anakin did?....apparently not.

 

It was when you brought in all these defenses of "they tortured her because they didn't know any better" that, as I said, I became absolutely sick. The Tuskens are humanoid. They are capable of building tents and making tools. That separates them from a cat who would capture a lizard (also in that the cat is looking for food, not for a game). I have a very hard time believing that they didn't know what they were doing.

I'm sorry you got sick, but I think you missed the point. From the beginning my understanding of the issue was level of wrongness and culpability. I was merely responding to other posts that compared Anakin's actions to the Tuskens, and stated my opinion that Anakin was more culpable for the reason's I stated before.

As for the cat, they do play with their little victims to death and sometimes do not eat them. Where you see the tusken's as backward human's, I see them more as aliens/non-humans that have little concept of human values or morals.

 

I like your style Anakin-girl, and I could've agreed more. You are definetly not afraid to voice your opinon and fight for what ou belive in. What Anakin did to the Tuskens wasn't right, but you have to admit killing the women and children would prevent a lot less future killings. Possibly making Tatooine a safer enviroment for his son Luke to grow up in. Yes there are still Tuskens but I think after what happened, they pretty much stay in the outer rim and don't go near farms like they used to.
Just a thought

 

Thats true. The Tuskens aren't stupid and they might put two and two together.

Kidnapping humans

=

Enraged sorcerer killing you're whole tribe.


Now I'm sure that there are many other tusken tribes that never heard of the incident, but for those who stumbled upon the scene of the massacre.... it could be a deterrent.


Who knows, I'm only speculating, just a little food for thought.


On a side note I think George could have shown more of the slaughter. I'm not talking about the women or children. Just more scenes of Anakin taking out the immediate threats.(male members)

 

Darth-Tate, those are interesting arguments you put forth (to say the least), and I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with them. My concerns are as follows:

1. "you have to admit killing [. . .] would prevent [sic] future killings" This makes the assumption--which in my mind is of a very questionable nature--that the Tuskens would kill humans. While I agree with the statement that onaverage/in general some Tuskens might have conflicts with some humans that results and death, I feel this is different. The distinction I make between the previous sentence and the one I quoted above is that the latter singles out every single individual that is a part of that community and says that they would if they grow up, with one hundred percent certainty, kill huamns. This denies them free will, and makes them utterly unable to change. While the former implication is distrubing, the latter seems just plain wrong, since all animals (even one celled organisms) have the ability to adapt to their environment and change.

2. "after what happened [. . .] they don't go near farms" They can't really be scared away from farms by this incident, since no one has heard of it. Remember that every person in the tribe was killed by Anakin (which is what people are objecting to) and that outside of those dead, only Anakin and Padme know what happen (and they've not spoken of it to anyone). But for the most part, the Sand People never went near farms anyway. Notice how far out Luke had to go in ANH before he ran into them.

3. Actually a continuation of #2, but why should the Sand People be confined to only certain areas of the planet? It is, after all, theirs.

***

In response to the the posts about "the scene should have been shown in more detail" I guess I disagree. I think that letting people's imaginations fill things in is more horrifying than anything they actually put on screen. To gory, and it would have become horror/action movie-ish and the audience might have been desensitized. Even movies that focus on death intensely and seriously (A Thin Red Line, for instance) can't conjure up the same awful images people can in their head. I think the imagination works because since its in your head, its similar to a memory, and brings more immediacy to the scene. Thus, I think its works well to be detailed in the novel (as the novel form depends on people actively utilizing their imagination to make the scene) while in the movie, Lucas again makes the audience actively visualize the scene by simply refusing to show it for more than a second.

Finally, let me say I think we are focusing to much on mitigating factors, as they are only part of the equation to figuring out intention, which itself weighs no more than half in determining total guilt (the other half being the actual action they did). All actions being independent--and outside a discussion of Anakin's intentions, which I mentioned above--it doesn't matter how evil the Tuskens were in killing his mother (and that was a very evil act). Because even if the whole village did deserve to be massacred for their crimes (an almost improbably hard case to make in any cricumstance, let alone here) Anakin is not the one with the authority to mete out that punishment. Thus, he shouldn't have.

 

Well, nice to see things have calmed down a bit in here. It was getting a bit hot.

Just something I wanted to address...

Darth Breezy: ?And before the "He's had blah blah blah training should Know better blah blah blah didn't tell Obi-Wan (do we KNOW THIS FOR A FACT? We can assume, but as the PT has shown us, assumptions are being turned on their ear...) ?

No, we do not know for certain he did not tell Obi-wan what he had done, but it makes little sense that Obi-wan would let him go off with Padme immediately after such and act if he had confesses. It seems more likely he would be in for some serious ?meditation? and ?anger control? lectures. Thus we can conclude with some justification that he has not confessed his actions.


Oh, and I suggest EVERYONE be careful about generalizations in this thread. I for one have not tried to suggest Anakin deserves to be drawn and quartered for what he has done. I am not an "Anakin Hater" or anything of the sort. However, I do recognize that the Tuskan scene is a pivotal moment in Anakin's development and marks the first time he takes steps down the path that will eventually lead him to the Dark Side. And as we know, once you let the Darkness in, "forever will it rule your destiny."

 

Ditto here. I didn't need the 'killing scene' to be longer. My mind can fill in the gaps quite well without actually seeing a slaughter.

Good points, Lagniappe and Jabba.

 

I didn't mean I wanted to watch baby tuskens get killed. I just wanted an action scene where he's battling off (male) tuskens trying to defend the tribe. Thats all.....

 

Lag and Jovieve: That's why I was careful to bite my tongue and not label you "Anakin-haters". I don't really think that would be a fair assumption since what we're discussing here is a moment in Anakin's development; we're not dissecting his overall character. Also, the two of you have both been willing to argue points rather than assign labels to characters or posters--and the reason I come to these boards is to talk to people like you guys (or girls).

Peace out, everyone. My $.02 haven't changed; I appreciate those of you who were willing to listen without slamming me as a person. But I've promised some friends I'd stay off this thread, and I intend to keep that promise.

(Now if I could just keep myself off that thread on Hayden's acting...I know someone is going to bash him in there and piss me off... ) Anyway, I digress. Carry on.

 

Alright Jabba you made your point. When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong. I respect your opinon but I still can't blame Anakin for what he did, because if somebody did that to my mom they'd be wishing for death. I'm glad to see that things have calmed down, and peace out to you too Anakin-girl.

 

It was not hard enough. We should've seen Anakin kill a few children. (offscreen.) The scene was better in the book.

 

"The same issues raised by the Tuskan Raiders are raised in the X-men series as well, but I can't help but wonder how many who are willing to completely condemn the Tuskans are generally supportive of the X-men. Why? Because we KNOW the X-men. We are allowed to see their POV and understand their motivations. Soldiers are killed, but it is justifyable because they invade Xaviers School. Right? Perhaps Shmi and the moisture farmers are seen as invaders by the Tuskans...."

I knew the X-Men would be brought up sooner or later.

This isn't like X-Men where there are both good guys and bad guys on each side. In this situation one side only has bad guys.

If there were no X-Men and all mutants were in the same vein as Magneto and friends than the intolerant people of that world would have a point based in sane self-preservation!

"If were talking ethics (and presumably morals) then whether something is wrong or right does not depend on something as whimsical as whether we would do it or not, or how we felt about it. You could see how going by either of these philosophies (especially the former) would lead to no clear ethical code. Thus, there really inapplicable here, what we are trying to do, as you said, is reach the "points-of-view of the participants.""

I'll concede a mental error here. Ethics are indeed not necessarily based upon societal approval of an activity.

Though, if the discussion were mutated to "Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How evil was he?" it would make a difference.

Since it's impossible to condemn all who have participated in something wrong...even if it can be argued that they should have known better by our standards. Slavery, Indian massacres, Japanese internment, possibly someday abortion, not everyone who participated in these is necessarily a bad person. Just supremely and criminally misguided.

A)what would be the biological explanation for their aggression (because without evolutionary reasoning to support it, its just eugenics to back you)?

Well let me answer this first:

And, yet, the Jawas, subject to the same relationship with them as the farmers, seem very amicable, and give Anakin information that could only come by being in some measure of contact with them. How come Jawa/Sand People relationships lack the tensions of human/Sand People relationshops?

That's thin evidence. The Jawas could have just passed by the camp and stayed in their Sandcrawler (which, according to Luke, is too big for the Sandpeople to attack).

From what I understand the Sandcrawler is partially a tool for protection, to go along with the mobile home. Protect from whom? The humans? The Sarlaac?

Unlikely. More probably it's from the Tusken Raiders.

Given that there is now doubt that the Tusken Raiders harbor less of a grudge against the Jawas I can reinstate the probablility that the Tusken Raiders would attack all others.

"C)Even if they are nothing but animals, and violent ones at that, what about movements like "the ban on fox hunting" or the "save the tigers" movement? After all, those truly are pests/damgers and people try to preserve them."

And others resist such movements as foolhardy. But none of those beasts can organize and shoot guns at you!

"D) Finally, why can't the differences in attitudes about killing be attributed to "a state of war" rather than speaking specifically to the savagery of the Sand People?"

I'm not sure if a "state of war" would account for the shooting at the pod racers or killing Jawas.

"What proof do we have of the Tuskens being evil? As far as I know, they never decapitated or killed an entire village of Tatooine citizens just because another Tusken was killed or held hostage."

Even though this wasn't directed at me, I should say that, in my view, the Tusken Raiders aren't evil at all. Just a lower life-form who can't help themselves.

If I'm wrong and they are capable of being good, then I would consider their culture evil from their co

 

"This isn't like X-Men where there are both good guys and bad guys on each side. In this situation one side only has bad guys."

Again, how do we KNOW there is only "bad guys" among the Tuskans? We are *only* shown events from the farmers point of view. We do not *see* the Tuskans point of view. We only see them as they appear to the farmers...

"If there were no X-Men and all mutants were in the same vein as Magneto and friends than the intolerant people of that world would have a point based in sane self-preservation!"

But again, you fail to understand my point. *WE* know about the X-men because we are shown their point of view. Perhaps the humans are only aware of Magneto and his friends and their actions. Much like the farmers only see one side of the Tuskans. (Xavier's followers tend to keep a lower profile.) So are the intollerable humans justified in deciding that the mutants are a risk? Is Stryker justified in his action? Is Senator Kelly? People seem willing to condemn the Tuskans based upon the actions of some. Why not allow the humans to judge the mutants based upon the actions of just Magneto and his ilk?

Perhaps all the Tuskans ARE mere coldblooded, heartless killers who destroy for fun and take pleasure in the suffering of others. Maybe the women and children do set fire to kittens, steal candy from babies and run old ladies down in four wheelers - but WE DON'T KNOW THIS FOR CERTAIN.

We have been shown a VERY limited view of the Tuskans, and I for one am unwilling to condemn an entire species based upon such limited information....


And it rather alarms me that others ARE willing to do so.

 

George Lucas is the creater of Star Wars. On the DVD Commentary, he said this was the start of Anakin going to the Dark Side. We hear Qui-Gon coming back from the dead, telling Anakin not to do it. Yoda feels the pain and anger Anakin's actions have created. Anakin himself tells Padme he should have known better.

I can certainly empathise with Anakin. In his position I might even have done the same thing, BUT the fact is, what he did was TOTALLY WRONG! Himself and the entire galaxy will suffer from that event, for the next 30 years!

 

Even though this wasn't directed at me, I should say that, in my view, the Tusken Raiders aren't evil at all. Just a lower life-form who can't help themselves.

If I'm wrong and they are capable of being good, then I would consider their culture evil from their constant attacks upon the innocent.

Exactly! They are doing what they do, based on the limited information we are given. You must own the knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil) in order to be judged accordingly. Only going by what the OS says (they are perpetrating a coming of age ritual that has been practiced for generations) in my opinion they lack the understanding that these acts are evil.

However, according to our morals and ethics killing for revenge and indiscriminently is wrong. Therefore, Anakin is judged to have perpetrated an evil act whereas the Tuskens are not.

That is not to say that what they did is not wrong nor barbaric, its just pointing out the difference in the level of wrongness or responsibility.

Though I will say that killing one woman is not as bad as killing a whole village to avenge a single death. And before I hear about how they killed the 30 men that tried to get her back, they were being attacked so had the right to self-defense and protection of their families. Just as the 30 settlers had the right to go after Shmi, it's a war of sorts in that instance. (You have to admit that the correlation between the Tuskens and the Settlers and the American Settlers and Indians are strikingly close -- I think George had it in mind when he came up with the idea).

 

Anakin himself tells Padme he should have known better.

I've been reading this a lot. Where and when did Anakin say this? I know he said it in the book (EU), but never in the movie that I know of.

 

It wasn't in the theatrical version, but it was added in to the DVD release.

 

Oh no! And does Padme actually give him the 'out' of 'you were just being human'?

Please say it ain't so, Joe! I'm going to have to pull out my DVD and check it out!

 

She says, "To be angry is to be human." He says, "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this." That's in the DVD version.


In the novel, the following is added:

Padme: "Do you hate them, or do you hate what they did to your mother?"

Anakin: "I hate them!"

[Score: Opposition--1 Me--0 ]

Also:

Padme: "They earned your anger, Ani."

And after, "I'm a Jedi, I know better than this," Anakin adds, "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry."

 

Oh, man!

Last summer most everyone on the boards was saying how they were glad those lines were left out of the movie because they made Padme an 'enabler'.

 

Yeah, don't get me started on those "most everyone on the boards" --they're a large part of the reason I started posting elsewhere, or only in specific threads around here (like Fan Fiction or the Ani/Padme Defenders Thread).

Nothing wrong with Padme being sympathetic and understanding when Anakin is in front of her bawling his eyes out. You don't have to like what he did to the Tuskens--but there would have been absolutely no point in her kicking him when he was down. If she were going to encourage him to speak to Obi-Wan or the Council about what happened, the garage scene was not the time.

 

"Again, how do we KNOW there is only "bad guys" among the Tuskans? We are *only* shown events from the farmers point of view. We do not *see* the Tuskans point of view. We only see them as they appear to the farmers..."

Well, the fact that Shmi was still tied up and being tortured would substantiate the fact.

"But again, you fail to understand my point. *WE* know about the X-men because we are shown their point of view. Perhaps the humans are only aware of Magneto and his friends and their actions. Much like the farmers only see one side of the Tuskans. (Xavier's followers tend to keep a lower profile.) So are the intollerable humans justified in deciding that the mutants are a risk? Is Stryker justified in his action? Is Senator Kelly? People seem willing to condemn the Tuskans based upon the actions of some. Why not allow the humans to judge the mutants based upon the actions of just Magneto and his ilk?"

Oh, I understood it. It's still not an accurate comparison though. The humans have plenty of evidence that not all mutants are bad...they just choose to ignore it.

Not the case in Star Wars.



"I can certainly empathise with Anakin. In his position I might even have done the same thing, BUT the fact is, what he did was TOTALLY WRONG! Himself and the entire galaxy will suffer from that event, for the next 30 years!"

Actually Anakin has only started his descent. He's not there yet and could avoid it. Most likely it will turn out that a second trigger, along with Palpatine's influence, will be what harms the galaxy.

The event itself only resulted in relief for the moisture farmers.

 

What Anakin did to the Tuskens is totally the start of his seduction. Notice from that moment how the lighting suddenly turns very red and dark. The skies become very ominous. After the confession Padme wears just a simple whie outfit. The beauty is slowly going from the SW universe, after that moment!

The Tusken Slaughter is the start of the dow-ward spiral. NOTHING will be the same again, from that moment. It was wrong!

 

But ooooh so good. I had waited so long to see Anakin give in to his anger.

In case you're wondering I root for the emporer in every movie except ROTJ.

I think Palpatine has more to do with Anakin's decent than we are meant to believe. I'm not saying he's in cahoots with those savages, but I'm sure he's watching over Anakin....especially during his duel with Dooku. You can here his chuckle after Anakin gets fried. (duh)



Again I have stated the obvious, some one shoot me.

 

Nothing wrong with Padme being sympathetic and understanding when Anakin is in front of her bawling his eyes out. You don't have to like what he did to the Tuskens--but there would have been absolutely no point in her kicking him when he was down. If she were going to encourage him to speak to Obi-Wan or the Council about what happened, the garage scene was not the time.

I agree that wasnt the time. However, I think it was inappropriate to give an excusing tone to her consolation. I think the "only human" comment should have been left out. I thought it would have been better to console and support him without giving any hint of excusing his actions.

I think her attitude trivilizes the massacre, and in so doing helps Anakin justify not telling Obi-Wan and therefore not getting the help he so obviously needs. The marriage also is another baffling event that puts in question Padme's logic and shadows her personality. I don't see how a mature and sophisticated woman would ever agree to marry a man that did something so horrible without at least making sure he receives counseling first.

I have however considered that there seems to be an overall prejudice against Aliens/Non-humans in the PT, perhaps this prejudice goes along way in explaining both the massacre and Padme's reaction to it. Any thougths on this?

If you notice the Empire doesnt have any Non-humans in their ranks, whereas the Jedi is made up of many. A prejudice would explain a lot but I would be very disappointed in Padme if thats the reason for her trivilizing of the massacre.