Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it?

Jeez, are we all still here?

The Abstract

I agree with son of lucas. You can only take what George Lucas gives you in the story. Tuskens are not to be trusted or trifled with.

The are completely unsympathetic villains in the Star Wars galaxy. Much like Palpatine and the Empire. They don't deserve our consideration.

This is debatable and this is what we are discussing. They DO deserve our consideration. As was said way above in many earlier posts, GL is showing us this scene to show Anakin's DESCENT to the Darkside. And how better to demonstrate it? That he sought revenge instead of justice and that in an uncontrolled rage he killed - by hand - helpless women/children/infants/old people/visiting neighbors/pregnant women etc. It's been said that he herded the women and children into a tent and killed them with a boulder in one swoop but since that wasn't shown or insinuated in the movie or DVD, it's EU and cannot be considered canon. So since we last saw Anakin swinging his lightsaber we can only go from there that that is how he dispatched all of them.

Anakin finding his mother beaten and tortured was the last straw. There was no turning back for him.

I would think so too, but since GL made the - IMHO - contradictory decision in the DVD to show Anakin being 'remorseful' after that scene, DVD AOTC seems to now hint - as it didn't in the movie - that there will be another 'last straw' for Anakin. But that creates a confusing morass of contradictory actions - if Anakin was remorseful, is sorry he did wrong, sorry he didn't 'act like a Jedi', why does he continue to throw away all his Jedi teachings? He didn't tell Obi-Wan or anyone other than Padme about slaughtering the Tuskens (they sure as s--t wouldn't have let him take Padme home had he done so), he marries her in direct disobedience to the Jedi Code... ? I think I'm going to ignore what has been done to the DVD and not consider it canon - since not everyone has a DVD player, but everyone saw the movie - because otherwise Anakin's actions after the Tusken scenes do not make sense and do not follow.

And you have to remember he was haunted by the dreams of his mother's agony at least a month before he got to her.

Anakin didn't 'know' why he was dreaming about her.

His failure to save her cast a shadow over his entire life- The decision to leave her when he was 10, his training as a Jedi, and his love of Padmé.

Only because he let it.

Anakin felt guilt and anger and sadness all at one time, and his only release was to hand the Tuskens their sweet revenge.

His ONLY release? No, he knew of others, he just did not have the discipline or desire - IMHO - to turn to them. He could have acted as a Jedi and he chose not to.

There was no law on Tatooine to gain recompense out there. It was kill or be killed, and Anakin made his decision.

Jedi can do a good job of NOT killing people - chopping arms left and right...it was not a 'kill or be killed' situation for Anakin. The Tuskens didn't even know he was there. He could have taken Shmi's body out the back and been gone.

It may have violated the Jedi Code, but I doubt few people could have abstained from judgement if they knew they had the exact kind of power to mete it out.

Again, very debatable and that is exactly what everyone is discussing. No, very FEW people would have acted as judge, jury and executioner because most people do not let their rage run out of control, no matter the situation. Otherwise they're would be a lot more violence than there is now.

And lastly, you can't forget that Anakin was remorseful of his actions. He knew he crossed the line.

See my discussion above.

And if a once-in-a-1000 years war hadn't broken out, I believe he would have faced the consequences of those actions.

Only if the Jedi know about it. And so far, Anakin is really good at deflecting concerns and keeping secrets.

And who know, he might yet face his judgement day with the Jedi

 

One of those situations where you know you are doing something wrong, but you go ahead and do it anyway. Anakin I'm sure knew that it was wrong, but his hate had total control, he was unable to listen to reason or his own sense of morality, not even to his dead master and friend who tried to stop him

"Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate, leads to suffering..."

Exactly, the whole reason George gave us this scene is to shows Anakin fall to the darkside. He gave into hate. He was wrong, it was an evil act, especially because he's a Jedi.

Now once you do this evil act are you evil and tainted forever? I don't believe so, true evil is a total surrender to hatred and fear that permeates your whole being. At this point in the trilogy Anakin succumbs to hatred, but is able to get control of himself again after the terrible massacre. HOwever, in the following scenes we see him succumbing to his hatred more easily each time. He charges Dooku even though Obi-Wan is right there and tells him not too, it's not out of ignorance its because he hates him for killing the Jedi. He also seems to me to be losing the ability to control his impulses and anger as evidenced by the Dooku fight, the fight on the transport when Padme falls out and the marriage.

He is tainted not only by the hatred but also by the feeling of power he felt during his lapse. IMO of course.

I thought the Tusken massacre the most pivotal scene in the whole movie and was put in to show the exact moment of Anakin's fall. It's not complete but it's started.

 

Anakin succumbs to hatred, but is able to get control of himself again after the terrible massacre. However, in the following scenes we see him succumbing to his hatred more easily each time.

You hit the nail right on the head, Obi-Can.

He charges Dooku even though Obi-Wan is right there and tells him not too, it's not out of ignorance its because he hates him for killing the Jedi. He also seems to me to be losing the ability to control his impulses and anger as evidenced by the Dooku fight, the fight on the transport when Padme falls out and the marriage.

Good post.

 

I think one point we need to make here is that, while what Anakin did was wrong, the alleged "lack of ability to control your impulses" is not the damnable sin that some of you seem to be making it out to be. That's what's been irking me about this thread, is the seeming looking down one's nose at people who are short-fused or emotional. Anakin's being short-fused or emotional was not wrong until those traits led him to seek revenge on all Tuskens, guilty and innocent.

What Anakin did was wrong, but because I understand where he was coming from and I understand the traits that led him to do what he did, I find what he did forgivable. Not saying he shouldn't be chastised by the Council--however, I do think he deserves more sympathy than he gets from a lot of fans.

 

I understand that a lot of fans like Anakin. I liked the young Anakin in TPM. He was kind and caring. He looked out for others. He was a good person.



Ten years latter....we get a whinning and crying young 'Jedi'. He feels he knows all and sees all. Note, this is before Shmi death.

How wrong was it?
Try to get a mental image of this; A young man full of hate for those who killed his mother attackes those men who did this to her. After that he then runs down every woman that he can find and cuts them down. Still enraged he starts hacking down the children of the ones that harmed his mother.

He was not sorry that he murdered the Tuskens only that he did not do it before they harmed his mother.

 

The kids are going to grow up to be exactly the same. That's why there hasn't been peace in the Middle East for 8,000 years. It never ends.

Ten years latter....we get a whinning and crying young 'Jedi'. He feels he knows all and sees all. Note, this is before Shmi death.

I don't understand the dounble standard. Kyp Durron was ten times worse than Anakin ever was, but he's a Jedi Master on the council, and that's perfectly OK. He killed his own brother.

Anakin cries because his mother was tortured to death, and everyone acts like he's a wimp or something. the only family, and only person he ever loved dies in his arms. Is supposed to say, "C'est la vie"? In the NJO, everyone is a whiner who has fallen to the darkside, but when Anakin does it, it's unacceptable. Well, either is never is, or it always is. So which is it?

I also find Tahiri to be an incredible whiner that feels sorry for herself more than his parents do for themselves. She is such a drama queen. So is Jaina, and Mara, for that matter.

 

Well according to the DVD cut he was sorry he murdered the Tusken children and women, it was Padme who wasn't sorry.

 

Well according to the DVD cut he was sorry he murdered the Tusken children and women, it was Padme who wasn't sorry.

Padme I think was just trying to comfort Anakin, she didn't want to judge him or make him feel worse then he already did. She wasn't going to judge what he did because of what he had been through, she was actually very frightened by Anakin when he confessed as you can tell simply by the look in her eyes, but she loved Anakin and loved him no matter what he did

And there is more then one way to look at the prospect of it being right or wrong

In our legal system if Anakin was tried and all the facts were presented, he would be convicted of dozens of counts of 2nd degree murder, he might be able to get away with manslaughter. But bottom line is he would be found guilty

The more complex issue is the moral question. Is taking personal revenge out on people justified? Did the Tuskens deserve what happened?

Personally I'm very split on this issue. There are times when I can fully understand why someone would hate someone else and respect that feeling enough to not challenge how they feel. In a book I'm reading right now about WWII, an American GI was disciplined and moved off of gaurd duty for German POW's when he told his commanding officer, "If I have to watch over those germans one more time I'm going to shoot every one of the sons of bitches"

If he had done this I would say it's wrong, but I wouldn't judge him on anything more then a legal level. It's understandable why he felt that way even if I don't agree, for people who have been through such terrible things as that GI and Anakin I think they've earned the right to hate the ones who caused the death of friends, or in Anakins case his mother

So bottom line is, I would say that what Anakin did was wrong, but I would never judge him, I would try to be as sympathetic and comforting as I could if I knew him even though IMO he did commit murder. No one could judge him fairly unless they'd been through the same type of thing, which I surely hope few have

So I think Anakin did something that is nothing short of horrible, but I nor anyone else I know could judge him, so I would never consider him a bad person. He loved his mother, he was trying to deal out justice, how far you take it is the real issue

But in a court of law I would hold Anakin completely repsonsible for his actions. Despite the greif and hate he was feeling, he still made the decision to kill all of the women and children. I am a strong believer that we are all completely responsible for our own actions no matter what the circumstances. If someone put a gun to my head I would never kill an innocent person, if I did then the fact that someone put a gun to my head would not get me off in my book. Although the person holding the gun to me would be just as guilty as me

So Anakin is guilty of murder, he made the choice, legally it is not his decision to see who lives and who dies unless they present him with an immediate danger which the Tuskens did not. But morally I can't say one way or the other because I am not a fit judge

Sorry for the long post, I hope I didn't repeat myself...

 

"The kids are going to grow up to be exactly the same. That's why there hasn't been peace in the Middle East for 8,000 years. It never ends."

and that makes it ok to kill them?

"What Anakin did was wrong, but because I understand where he was coming from and I understand the traits that led him to do what he did, I find what he did forgivable. Not saying he shouldn't be chastised by the Council--however, I do think he deserves more sympathy than he gets from a lot of fans."

you find the out of control slaughter of women and children forgivable? you think he deserves sympathy because he was so out of control that not only did he kill the Tuskens who may have been responsible for his mother's death, but he went on to kill all the women and children too.

did you folks not understand that the point of the slaughter was to show Anakin doing an awful, horrible, UNFORGIVABLE thing? now you are starting to contradict Lucas himself in your assessment of the situation. Anakin slaughtering the innocent WAS WRONG, Padme forgiving him WAS WRONG, these are the wrong actions that eventually lead to Anakin becoming one of the most evil characters in the history of cinema. some of you really missed the point here, big time.

reading some of these defenses of Anakin's mass murder of innocent women and children is really giving me the creeps.

 

did you folks not understand that the point of the slaughter was to show Anakin doing an awful, horrible, UNFORGIVABLE thing?

Nope. I saw it as the beginning of his descent--but not the descent itself. He showed remorse, and that makes it different.

I, like ForceHeretic, would find Anakin guilty in a court of law, but I would also, like Padme, forgive him and comfort him.

reading some of these defenses of Anakin's mass murder of innocent women and children is really giving me the creeps.

Reading the defense of the Tusken torture of Shmi gives me the creeps. Who was more innocent here? At least Shmi didn't watch anyone get tortured to death and do nothing (which is understandable for the kids, but not the women).

 

a_g: This thread isn't worth any more of your time, sweetie. You're getting your blood pressure up and people are going to think what they want anyway. *rolls eyes*

 

The Middle-East peace for the future is way off topic.

So is the Kyp Durron subject but, I do not have a double standand for him. I dislike him just as much as I do AOTC's Anakin Skywalker.

Defending the murder of women and children creeps me out to but, I can see why Anakin fans would try to do this. I would not like it if a character I was a fan of did something this evil. The fact that I fully believe that Vader would do this act in a second is why it works in the over all new story of Star Wars.

Padme forgiving and comforting him has forever ruined my favorite Phantom Menace character.
What GL said on the commentaries about the Dark Side being stronger makes it the most painful scene for me to watch in all of Star Wars history....this counts the HS. X 1000000

 

T_I_S: Surprised to see you here, babe. And sadly, you're most likely right.

FuzzyRat:

Question for you guys who dislike Anakin--if his sobbing with remorse is not enough for you to forgive and comfort him, what would it take? Him using the Force to bring the women and children back to life? Even he isn't capable of that. So what was he supposed to do?

If he came back to the homestead and bragged about what he had done and Padme still forgave him, I'd be angry too. But that isn't what happened.

People make mistakes. It's not like Anakin purposely killed the Tuskens in cold blood just for kicks. They had tortured his mother to death--for crying out loud, don't call me uncompassionate. At least I'm not turning my back on the torture like it's nothing, and indicating that the Tuskens should be allowed to go free for it (I'm not saying you specifically have, but several on this thread have--they've even endorsed the torture as "sacred" and a "ritual"). Yes, he should be judged by the Council, possibly expelled from the Order--but he regrets what he did and should not be condemned to eternal hellfire.

 

Defending the murder of women and children creeps me out to but, I can see why Anakin fans would try to do this.

Let's say instead of Tuskens Anakin killed a group of Saiyan's. (Note: For those who don't know Saiyan's are form a show called DragonBallZ). Any ways he killed not only the men but the women and children to. For he just found his mother dead (Note: The Saiyan's are cold bloody killers and have done things that are far worse then what Anakin did). Would you still condemned him for killing a whole race of cold bloody killers. (Note: The women and children in the Saiyan race even kill people for no reason I might add). Not only would Anakin be doing a good thing by getting ready of the whole Saiyan race he would be saving many people. I mean to bad the Saiyan's are all dead. Well maybe if they had not killed all those other peopel and kidnapped a woman and tortured her they would not be dead.

 

Defending the murder of women and children creeps me out

You mean the murder of non-human women and kids, apparently. The Tuskens murdered Shmi, and the thirty men that tried to find her. What about all those orphans and widows? Anakin might have killed a bunch of savages, but he most likely saved many people that would have been next. People? No, make that defenseless, middled aged women that they all can beat to death.

Tusken: Ten of you hold her down while I go and run for reinforcements!

Why not go after a man?


And while we're on the subject. I am sure you adore and cannot find a single thing wrong with Mara Jade, though she killed probably hundreds of people for pay, without knowing a a thing about them, or caring either. A totally cold-blooded, heartless, murderer. But that's all okay, because she served Palpatine. Oh, and she's "hot". That erases all her wrongs, huh?
Now she's a "Jedi Master", and me, and about ten other people object to this lunacy. Everyone else loves it to pieces.

So you go figure why a boy that kills the evil ones that kidnapped and brutally murdered his mother is so reviled, and conversely, a woman that killed indiscriminately, with not a shred of remorse (in fact she derived pleasure from it), gets nothing worshshipful adoration, forgivness, and acceptance of everyone. On these boards, and in the story.
You make sense of that. Because it doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like a double standard to me.

 

*applauds Tiershon_Fett*

Amen, sister.

 

Tiershon Fett

Defending the murder of women and children creeps me out -

You mean the murder of non-human women and kids, apparently.

And that means what? Only humans count? Since Anakin called them 'women and children' that's what they were.

The Tuskens murdered Shmi, and the thirty men that tried to find her. What about all those orphans and widows?

Very true. Anakin however, left no widows or orphans.

Anakin might have killed a bunch of savages,

Very debatable and that is what we are discussing.

but he most likely saved many people that would have been next.

Many people? Where do you get that from? It seems to me the Tuskens only pick off people one at a time.

People? No, make that defenseless, middled aged women that they all can beat to death.

Tatooine is not Disneyland.

Tusken: Ten of you hold her down while I go and run for reinforcements!

Why not go after a man?

They did - Luke. It wasn't a matter of gender. It was a matter of who is out in the wastes, defenseless and alone.

And while we're on the subject. I am sure you adore and cannot find a single thing wrong with Mara Jade, though she killed probably hundreds of people for pay, without knowing a a thing about them, or caring either. A totally cold-blooded, heartless, murderer. But that's all okay, because she served Palpatine. Oh, and she's "hot". That erases all her wrongs, huh?
Now she's a "Jedi Master", and me, and about ten other people object to this lunacy. Everyone else loves it to pieces.

Not everyone. I'm on board with you on this. I detest Mara Jade.

So you go figure why a boy that kills the evil ones that kidnapped and brutally murdered his mother is so reviled,

I don't revile Anakin, I revile what he did. It's normal to be angry, grief-stricken and enraged. It is a BIG problem when that rage gets out of control. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

It was a matter of who is out in the wastes, defenseless and alone.

Exactly--which is Shmi. So why are people defending the Tuskens instead of her? The Tuskens were not exactly defenseless--and they proved it by killing 26 farmers and cutting off Cliegg's legs.

It's normal to be angry, grief-stricken and enraged. It is a BIG problem when that rage gets out of control. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'll agree with you there, and I can stomach this much better than I can stomach a lot of the arguments here (the "sacred ritual" arguments, etc.). I think where we have a difference is that, while I think Anakin was wrong, I still feel sympathy for him because the poor guy had just found his mother tortured to death. I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the Tuskens, except for the old people and kids. (As far as the women--we are not helpless. They could have untied Shmi or something.)

Yes, I think Anakin should have to stand trial for his actions, in front of the Council or whoever. However, in an Earth situation, I don't think the charge would be first-degree murder. It was not cold and calculated. It would be second-degree murder or manslaughter, probably manslaughter. There is a reason the two are looked upon differently in a court of law.

As far as Padme--if I were her, would I have married Anakin if he had murdered in cold blood (the way the Tuskens did)? No. But that wasn't the case here, so I understand why she sympathized with Anakin.

 

Hitler had Eva Braun.

Anakin has Padme.


who the hell is Mara Jade?

 

DrEvazan:

Hitler murdered 10,000 Jews in cold blood.

Hitler didn't find his mother tortured to death by the Jews he executed in concentration camps.

No comparison to Anakin.

Do you seriously not know who Mara Jade is? Just checking. If so, visit the EU forums.

Also, do you come here to debate points, or just to be nasty to people? If it's the latter--which your posts seem to indicate, because every post I have ever seen of yours has been rude--I don't know where you get off criticizing Anakin.

I've also noticed that when you post your nasty drivel here--which included accusing me of sleeping with serial murderers --and I respond to you by making debatable points, you don't bother responding to me--which leads me to believe that you would rather attack me personally than debate me on points. Am I right?

 

ok...


"which included accusing me of sleeping with serial murderers"

never happened, i did write something about how serial killers have women writing them love letters in prison, and your comments here remind me of that mentality, alongside Padme's reaction, but it seems you are taking things to the extreme.

anyway i was merely making clear the relationship between Padme and Anakin. if Eva Braun could still love Hitler (it was six million jews by the way) then i guess anything is forgivable. of course forgiveness is in the mind of the forgiver, which doesnt make it deserved. Padme forgiving Anakin was as big a mistake as Anakin's mass murder of women and children. see, this Anakin guy goes on to become Darth Vader, one of the most evil characters in fictional cinema history. the purpose of the PT is to show us why.

 

never happened

Oh, excuse me...you accused me of writing love letters to serial killers in prison. The difference is merely physical. (In fact, I would rather be accused of having sex with them.)

if Eva Braun could still love Hitler (it was six million jews by the way) then i guess anything is forgivable. of course forgiveness is in the mind of the forgiver, which doesnt make it deserved.

I stand corrected on the number of Jews. I wish I could think straight when I'm pissed.

It's none of my business or yours whether or not Eva Braun loved Hitler after what he did. It's her choice and her business. It wouldn't keep him from facing the consequences of his actions, so why should we care?

It's irrelevant anyway because, as I said in my above post--a point you did not bother addressing--what Anakin did when he found his mother tortured to death by the same Tuskens he killed was not the same as what Hitler did.

 

if I may interject...

The Tuscans should not have sympathy for the torture and kidnapping of Shmi(spelling?). However, I agree that even with this, it does not make Anakin's slaughter of them any more right. I would theorize that in some way, his slaughter of them symbolizes that he is falling to their level of brutality.

 

"what Anakin did when he found his mother tortured to death by the same Tuskens he killed was not the same as what Hitler did."

no its not the same, but they are both wrong and forgiveness of them is also wrong. he may or may not have killed the same Tuskens that killed his mom, certainly the women and children and the rest he killed were not the ones who tortured her. Hitler blamed the jews for the financial problems in Germany. was he right to try to kill them all for what he percieved as the actions of a few?

 

Is (allegedly) causing financial problems the same as (definitely) torturing someone to death?

Also, forgiveness is a personal choice on the part of the forgiver--who are you to say it's wrong?

Forgiveness doesn't mean the person doesn't have to account for what he or she did wrong--it just means that people don't stay angry forever. What good does it do to stay angry with a person until the galaxy collapses in on itself? The angry person is harmed more than the wrongdoer.