Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

Thanks for clarifying some of the Anakin/Vader issues for me obsessed and rhonderoo. In the OT, I always belived Vader could and should be redeemed. There was never a question about what the story was about. However, I still have trouble bridging the gap between PT and OT.

I guess we can agree to disagree. Ultimately, Anakin was redeemed. That's what matters. I agree with the Force's grace as I agree with God's. I realize that this is just a story and not real life. I'm beginning to think that my above rantings were related to me working something out within myself.

 

I think we all identify with characters a bit differently and its how they relate to our lives that define how we see them, maybe. So what you said makes perfect sense brodie.

And honestly, slow_dawn, mythilogically speaking I think that's how were supposed to see Anakin/Vader. George (and Obi-Wan) said it, "Darth Vader murdered the good man that was your father." Because there is some exaggeration, symbolically, Anakin allowing Sidious to dub him "Darth Vader" and do his mojo magic on him, could be his death.

 

It kind of ruined the air of mystery surrounding Darth Vader, and though it added to the mystery that was Anakin Skywalker, it wasn't the way I would have written it. He was 'weakened' because he was too whiny (which kinda put me off). It makes me hate that the awesome, hard-*** Darth Vader couldn't comtrol himself, and the 'man' who was Anakin wasn't really mature enough to be called anything much older than 'boy.'

Sorry for jumping in like this, but awesome topic I'm Nat, by the way

 

I actually kind of like the fact that Anakin was so young. Honestly, at twenty-two (don't hate me kids!), we're really still a child in a lot of ways maturity-wise, I think. A bit of a generalization, but I know I didn't start making more mature, rational decisions as well until I got about twenty-seven and got over myself. I think when you contrast Anakin against Jacen from the EU now, it's easier to see how someone my son's age (he's almost nineteen, but Anakin was 22, so it was close... and my son is still a bit whiny ) could be selfish, irrational in their decision-making, even make huge mistakes vs. someone Jacen's age, which is thirty something. Anakin was selfish and immature, and pretty normal albeit tainted with some character flaws, and Jacen is arrogant and calculating... Makes me glad Anakin did it first. Otherwise the Skywalker family wouldn't have procreated.

 

Hey Nat welcome you know its a free for all!
I do think we tend to gloss over the specifics of some of George's dialog and relate to the mythology of the galaxy as a whole.
Thank goodness for fan fiction that takes some of the seemingly cheesy out of no where lines and make them believable even necessary. I dont know if I would feel the same about ROTJ if it were not for pieces like Rhonderoo/Jedi Trace Ignite the Stars that really makes it beautiful for me.

*bows at Rhonderoo*

 

For those of you who get the Insider, you might have noticed that there's a "Darth Vader Saga" coming out in April, written by Ryder Wyndham. He wrote the Young Reader novelization omnibus of the OT a couple of years ago. Sue Rostini said on the Official Site that this Young Reader book(s) will focus on the entire saga through Anakin Skywalker's eyes. Here's the thread in Literature. I can't wait! The OT novelization was awesome, incorporating the PT elements in just the right places (Vader thinking of Luke as his and Padme's son the moment before he slam dunk's the Emperor).

 

Awesome! I saw that in the Insider and wondered what it was about. Can't wait!

 

1. I don't think Vader was weakened at all. I think the character acquired a lot more layers and became a lot more sympathetic.

2. Anakin wasn't whiny -- he was frustrated and just happened to voice these frustration (probably healthier then if they were all bottled up). There is a diff between venting and whining (IMO) and Anakin was prone to the former. Also its not like he just went around complaning to everyone around. He voiced his frustrations to Padme (who was his friend and then wife) and then to Obi-Wan who was supposedly his friend. And its not like he was venting over nothing. He was going through plenty of crap in both AOTC and ROTS.

3. I think Anakin was a LOT more selfless then he was selfish. And even if it all parralels the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" then well...even so his intentions were good and selfless. It all just sorta blue up in his face but he's young, desperate, and doesn't really have anyone to go to except for Palpatine (who offers him a deal...albeit a deal w/ the devil). At least Anakin tried which, IMO, is a LOT better then what, say, Obi-Wan would have done (which is pretty much nothing at all). Yea that's Anakin -- extrememly devoted and loyal to those he loves. *shrug* I like that quality in him. It's a selfless one, too.

 

what i think...and don't get me wrong. I think Anakin should have shown that there were some good in him, that he could refuse Palpatine's power so he could find his own way on how to gain more power for himself but in the end he found himself constantly slipping further away from those around him, while obi tried to reach out to him but Anakin, enraged and betrayed everything he believed in and turned against them, thus accepting to join Palpatine and at the same time, trying to save Amidala from death.


Thats what should have happened, Anakin stepping back like Luke had done after realising that this shouldn't be happening, this can't be right... and his refusal to join the Emperor in ROTJ, it would show there is good in him.

he could have begun his own quest for power and went on his own for a while during ep3 but fearing that he has no control over this new found power, he seeks palpatine since he believes he could be his only hope...

It would also show the struggle of good and evil within him.

I just think at the moment when he fell to his knees, he turned to dark side without hesitation...meaning he turned too fast.

 

People seem to bring up this "turned too fast" thing an awful lot. I suppose they have to be getting it from somewhere, but... I just don't think it was really that abrupt.

It's established that Palpatine not only took "great interest" in Anakin as early as TPM, but has been working on him at every opportunity since. The latter is not stated outright, but I think it's made very clear. Palpatine plays the warm and fuzzy indulgent parental figure, calling Anakin "son" and actively encouraging and approving all the emotions, passions, and instincts that Jedi training or even plain old self-discipline would call on him to control. Obi-Wan is put in the position not only of a young teacher/mentor/guardian who wasn't expecting to have a kid to look after so soon, but of a parent or guardian who is stuck with all the disciplinary work and looking like the bad guy while an overindulgent grandparent or noncustodial parent insists on feeding the kid sugar and never telling him no, then sending him home to bounce off the walls until he throws up.

So. Thirteen years for offscreen setup.

But just looking at RotS, Anakin is walking the edge for the entire movie. A step down, teeter on the edge, haul back, over and over and over.

He kills Dooku, knowing full well he shouldn't, because he's been giving in to anger in the heat of battle, because he does hate the guy and want revenge, because his only conscious mentor gave him permission and encouragement.

Palpatine "justifies" the decision on grounds of both natural feeling and pragmatism. Natural to want revenge, he says. Too dangerous to live, he says.

Anakin then steps back, balks at Palpatine's recommendation to leave Obi-Wan. Caring and sanity win out.

On we go, and get into the dreams about Padmé dying in childbirth, which are well calculated to send Anakin bonkers, and into Palpatine's planting the idea that he's the only one who can give Anakin the chance to save her.

And then Palpatine reveals himself beyond doubt, and Anakin does not give in, does not kill him, but goes back to the Council to report him. And while I can see both sides of his conflicts with the Council, and can see why Mace made him stay behind, the words are a slap in the face and the action gives him time to Brood. This is why I'm torn about saying Anakin needs to stop and think more often.

When Anakin shows up after all, Mace -- unconsciously, and most unfortunately -- quotes Palpatine himself. Too dangerous to live, says he. Palpatine must have been ecstatic to hear that -- on top of all the other conflict (and the fact that Anakin likes him, that they've had a vastly more cordial relationship through the years than Anakin and Mace) add Anakin's guilt over Dooku and doubt over whether the Jedi exercising authority over him are behaving themselves or total hypocrites..... Anakin doesn't exactly kill Mace, but he certainly lets Palpatine do it.

And at this point, it seems clear to me that Anakin doesn't believe he has any other options. He has stopped himself several times, stumbled (sometimes really, really badly; see AotC) and tried to go on from it. But this, I think, he believes at the time is the point of no return. (And he goes on believing it for the next twenty-odd years.) So he kneels before Palpatine and he convinces himself the Jedi are all traitors and he goes and murders children who trust him.

So... as I see it, it's abrupt, but it's abrupt in the way that it's abrupt to fall off a tightrope after wobbling along most of its length, or that it's abrupt to fall off the roof after you've been sliding down the slope, clawing for purchase, and then the gutter breaks under your weight. Except neither of those analogies really acknowledges his personal responsibility adequately, which all the explanations don't take away.

 

Brilliant summation, I have to say. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Something I noticed...we never see Anakin killing the initiates. We never even see him raise his ?saber. We see him activate his ?saber but it?s pointed down not forward and not lifted over his head or anything. Then the scene cuts immediately. For all we know Anakin could have given himself pause, turned around and walked away, leaving the job for his troops. Not that that makes it much better but it?s just something I picked up on, since everyone tends to assume that Anakin did it himself. .

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure he did it himself. It was put in the movie to show us now low he'd sank, and how far to the dark side he'd fallen. At that point, he'd pretty much sold his soul to the devil and had turned. I think this is why you see the tear on Mustafar. He realizes that he's gone too far. As PK said, for twenty years his whole mindset is, "It's too late now, look what all I've done." So he turns that part of him away forever.

The youngling scene was the bookend to the turn back in ROTJ. From his darkest moment to his brightest. I'd add that it also shows us now far away from himself (the little boy on Tatooine) he'd gotten.

 

Off topic, I know... I have a question- have we discussed redeemed-Vader or Vader's redemption fics here? There are so many - but it's so easy to write them wrong - I just wondering about your opinion...

 

No, but that's a good topic. We can also link your favorites here.

I think there has to be balance in a redeemed Vader (or Anakin, rather). He's not going to be a raging, impatient Sith...a la ANH, but he's not going to be a teddy bear. Anakin never let anyone push him around, IMO due to his background as a slave. You'd not see him allowing anyone to spit in his face or knock him down, IMO. For that matter, who'd be brave enough to do that to someone who probably still has the capacity to choke you without touching you?

 

Yoda mentions how the Padawans' wounds are from a saber. I think that points pretty clearly to Anakin killing at least some of the kids himself.

 

I was talking specifically about the scene in the Coucil chamber with the initiates.
The scene where Yoda says that is in a hallway, not in the Council Chambers. Also he refers to the young Jedi as "padawan." The kids in the scene I was talking about didn't have braids, so they wouldn't be padawans.

 

I realize this goes against the present discussion topic of a redeemed Anakin, but . . .

 

One of my favorite Vader redemption stories is Darth Ishtar's Lest Ye Be Judged, which is probably one of the most, if not the most realistic view of what could possibly happen to a post - repentant Anakin in the aftermath of ROTJ. It shows what would probably happen in a Vader war crimes trial. A roller - coaster of an emotional ride.

 

What does a well-written redeemed Anakin look like?

Well, at the very least I'd say that he'd have a haircut. That on-the-edge-of-going-dark wild hair look just doesn't fly.

 

I love his hair in ROTS. Makes him look both dangerous and vulnerable.

 

Ditto, Diane. Though redeemed, he might have it more like Qui-Gon. I'm thinking Val Kilmer like in Willow.

Redeeming him has to be a process. It took a while for him to turn, and turning him back wouldn't happen in an instant. He may have moments of clarity, but he has a lot to fight against to get back to what he was before. And it's about motivation too. His reasons for giving up the easy power of the sith have to be fleshed out in a believable way.

 

Oh, I also love his hair - still it's totally OOC when after his redemption his -and his family's - only concern is how to get his good looks back (Anakin/Vader rushes to plastic surgery and after the surgery is done he is sooooo beautiful and instantly all of his sins - and guilts - are forgotten...

My favorite redeemd Vader characterization is JediGaladriel's Penitent - but there are some brilliant stories - some of them are work in progress!

 

Depends on when the redemption occurs. Pre or post lava. If Obi-Wan brings him back then it changes a lot of things. Does Padme still die if he comes back?

 

Darn, ladyz, you stole the one I was going to recommend. THe issue I had with that one was having Clone!Anakin so he could be a prepubescent hottie lusted after by a 50-year-old woman. Wait, that pretty much sums up half of the fangirls anywhere.

I like redemption stories that deal directly with the consequences of his injuries on a long-term scale.