Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by rhonderoo, Sep 10, 2004.

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  1. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Great sounding challenges! I'll put them in the Saga thread. :)


    Thanks for the ideas, Jade and agentj!

    I love those pictures of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Trace has a habit of yelling at Darth Vader in the OT, because he has Obi-Wan on the brain. :D She's right, though. They say the line between love and hate is very thin. I think in the case of these two it's very evident. Vader is convinced he hates Obi-Wan, but is still driven to compare himself to him and comes up failing in his mind. He speaks of him all the time in the OT, even after he's killed him. Obi-Wan deals with his failure of Anakin by diving him into two people, Anakin and Vader. I think deep down he wishes to get "Anakin" back and this is his plan with Luke. Luke is groomed his whole life to get his father and Obi-Wan's "son" back.


    The most interesting thing about Anakin as a chacter is that there is very little that could be considered completely out of character for him. He's that complex and conflicted.

    He's arrogant but insecure at his center. He's intelligent, but sometimes very foolish and naive. We know that he loves very with all his heart, but when he hates...look out. About the only thing I can't picture Anakin as being is indifferent.


    He is extremely complex and conflicted. I think it's safe to say he does nothinghalf-way. I've always thought it ironic that when he becomes detached and unemotional, it is as Darth Vader. In some ways, its like the Jedi got what they wanted...he has no attachments (until Luke), he's cold and calculating (no impetuousness there!), and he is deadly patient when he has to be. He still has moments of anger and impatience, but it doesn't come close to his former self.

    I think part of what happens in ROTS teached the Jedi a lesson (I know, that's a given) about emotions and attachment and humanity.
  2. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    Very interesting discussion.

    I would remind people, though, that some of your discussion has been very spoiler-ish and you might want to be aware of that. I'm totally spoiled so I don't care but others might. [face_blush]
  3. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    In some ways, its like the Jedi got what they wanted...

    I think it's interesting how the one time he finally follows the rules and listens to orders, it's when people like the Emperor and Tarkin are giving them. Lucas said something about how Anakin loses part of his humanity (or did I make that up? :p ). So maybe in losing his humanity, he became that "ideal Jedi" - not quite a good thing, though.
  4. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5

    I've always thought it ironic that when he becomes detached and unemotional, it is as Darth Vader. In some ways, its like the Jedi got what they wanted...he has no attachments (until Luke), he's cold and calculating (no impetuousness there!), and he is deadly patient when he has to be.

    The irony of this statement just takes my breath away. And I fully agree with it. In becoming a Dark Lord of the Sith, he has become exactly what the Jedi strived for him to become. Except that the Jedi were too blind to realize what they were doing...

    Anakin's so complicated... he really is all emotions forced into one body. There are so many different sides of them and he needs them all to exist. He is so complicated and conflicted-it is truly amazing. And then the Jedi come and try to force him to be something that he simply can not be and he snaps. Sort of like Le Chatelier's Principle in Chemistry:

    If a system at equilibrium is disturbed, the equilibrium moves in the direction which teds to reduce the disturbance.

    Anakin is a system at equilibrium. He is disturbed by the Jedi and therefore 'moves' to the side of the Force/Master that can reduce the disturbance of the Jedi- the Sith, who happen to be the antithesis of the Jedi.


    And I love those Obi-Wan/Anakin pics. It's sad to think that at the end of the movie, their relationship will be essentially destroyed. It also shows how twisted the situation is, however, that it brings two friends/father/son to a fight to the death. At least we know that in ROTJ everything works out at the end. I wonder what it's going to be like for people who watch the movies in order, from Episode I to Episode VI and don't know that in the end he is redeemed. It must be even worse then to watch them...
  5. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    he is deadly patient when he has to be.

    I think the "when he has to be" part is funny, because it seems to me that as Vader, he still has to be reined in once in a while. [face_thinking] Palpatine, on the other hand, has no problem waiting for his plans to come to fruition, since that's what he's pretty much been doing all his life. If Vader's taking his time to act, maybe it's because those mechanical parts are slowing him down. [face_laugh]
  6. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    If Vader's taking his time to act, maybe it's because those mechanical parts are slowing him down.

    Heh, could be. But yes, Anakin and even Vader doesn't strike me as a very patient person. So there must be some other reason- and the mechanical parts would fit perfectly...
  7. Ace_Venom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2002
    star 3
    Heh, could be. But yes, Anakin and even Vader doesn't strike me as a very patient person. So there must be some other reason- and the mechanical parts would fit perfectly...

    George said it himself that Vader lost a lot of power after his little accident. He couldn't even plan on making a move against Palpy until Luke came into the picture.
  8. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I remember that. I think if he hadn't had the accident and stayed dark, man.... Just think about it.


    I would like to know what keeps on the dark side, since it's evident he doesn't just enjoy being dark and angsty for the sake of being dark. He isn't the picture of goodness and has very human frailties, but he doesn't seem to enjoy it like Palpatine does. I've always thought Vader was rather miserable in the suit. In fact, that's how I write him. The only time you see Vader animated is when he's totally in the darkside like in ANH, or when he's found Luke. You can tell he enjoys strategy and the hunt, so to speak, but to hang around and ponder how to be dark - that's for Palpatine. Vader's darkness was for a purpose - to bring peace (from a certain point of view... :p). I don't think he wants the riches, or ever power for the sake of power. Complex doesn't even begin to explain him... Just think - the only people who really ever figured him out are - again: Obi-Wan, Padmé and Luke.
  9. VaderLVR64 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2004
    star 8
    And what a cool challenge that could be! Anakin never hurt and yet still a Sith!? Wow! Can you imagine the damage he could do???
  10. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Oooh, good idea! We have enough challenges to get us through June. Maybe we should do that one after ROTS. Where we could go with that...
  11. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    rhonderoo posted on 3/4/05 3:40pm
    I love those pictures of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Trace has a habit of yelling at Darth Vader in the OT, because he has Obi-Wan on the brain. :D
    />

    I don't yell...do I? [face_blush] (They're gonna think I'm some kind of fangirl or something. 8-}) It's the verb tense thing: "Obi-Wan has taught you well." Makes my little beta-reading heart cringe. :-B[face_laugh]


    rhonderoo posted on 3/4/05 3:40pm
    />

    Exactly. Makes you want to conjure up a few Jedi Force ghosts in ANH, point to the Vader suit and say, "There ya go - you got what you wanted. No feelings, none of that pesky 'I miss my mom' or 'I love my wife' business, completely unattached. Happy now?" ;)

    />/>/>/>
  12. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    ! Anakin never hurt and yet still a Sith!? Wow! Can you imagine the damage he could do???


    I find it fairly ironic that the fic that's been stuck in my head this last month (that will get written as soon as I have the actual time to sit down and write without getting interuppted for more than five minutes) involves this and several other things that have been mentioned here/elsewhere...

    I would like to know what keeps on the dark side, since it's evident he doesn't just enjoy being dark and angsty for the sake of being dark. He isn't the picture of goodness and has very human frailties, but he doesn't seem to enjoy it like Palpatine does.


    agentj and I were discussing something fairly similar in her fan fic thread. I'd post the conversation here, but it's very spoiler-heavy and I'd want to ask her first.

    Anyway, one of the things we both agreed on was that Palpatine was Anakin's mentor. If you think about it, Palpatine was pretty much in a father-son relationship with Anakin. It was only when Vader's family was involved (think Luke) that he made the suggestion of other-throwing Palpatine. I think without that, he and Palpatine would have stayed as they were- Master and Apprentice. Especially if he was out of the suit, because Palpatine wouldn't need to find another Apprentice- his own Apprentice was more htan powerful enough and Vader had no real reason to go and kill Palpatine (until his family got in the way). Palpatine was his mentor and almost like his father- except unlike Obi-Wan, his other father-figure, he never critized him. Palpatine was all niceness and pleasantries to him- why would he want to turn on him until he actually had a reason?

    I agree that he probably doesn't enjoy being Dark for the heck of it. But I think it's a mixture of sticking with Palpatine, his 'father' and power. Because Anakin does seem pretty obsessed with power. At least proving that he has it. Part of his problems with the Jedi Order was that he believed they were holding him back and didn't understand about the power that he was made for. I don't think it's like Palpatine- wanting power so he can rule over anything. I think it's just something he wants people to acknowledge that he has. It probably comes from his slave roots, IMO. He spent the first years of his life as a slave, with pretty much nothing. Then he's taken to the Jedi and told that he's this fabled Chosen One, and supposed to be all-powerful. Except that the Jedi don't seem to care (in his point of view) and so he gets kind of obsessed with making them realize it.

    Then I think that part of it is that once you use the Dark Side, it sort of starts to take over you. Not fully- because we see that in ROTJ. But I think that it does get a hold over you and it's hard to break free from. I highly doubt that you can use the Dark Side strongly and then wake up the next morning, deciding to use the Light Side again. I view it as a kind of drug, that gets into your system. It's addictive, powerful and it doesn't really want to let you go...

    Plus, say he did decide to give up the Dark Side. What's left for him then? Palpatine would probably want to kill him. The Jedi are dead- at his own hand. His family is gone. What's left? A life of hiding and solitude? Anakin doesn't really strike me as the type to be fit to live as a hermit for years and years. And he'd probably have to, because Palpatine is not going to take it lightly that his Apprentice has decided to go back to the Light Side.

    As rhonderoo said, he does seem to enjoy the hunt and strategy of it and I agree with that. His job in the Empire (though probably not 'officially') is to hunt out Rebels/ Jedi(when there were actually Jedi left). I'm sure that's also a bit of a thrill for him. And he also probably gets to help with battles- something that would appeal to the strategist in him.

    But basically I think it's a combination of several factors, that make him stay with Palpatine, us
  13. VaderLVR64 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2004
    star 8
    Tall, dark, and mysterious... That's my Vader! [face_love]
  14. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I agree. Except that I'm a bit hesitant on the Obi-Wan- I think that in some ways he did figure him out. But in other ways, he was still very much in the dark about Anakin. And I'd like to add a name to that list- Palpatine, in a way. Another person who seemed to know Anakin and Anakin trusted immensely. And just as Obi-Wan doesn't really understand the Darkside of Anakin, Palpatine doesn't understand the Lightside of Anakin. But he still understands him better than most people. Only Padme and Luke really got to fully see the man that Anakin was, with both the Dark and Light sides to him.

    Now that I think about it, you're right. I was thinking before I read your part about Palpatine that he knew exactly which buttons to push in Anakin, or the dark side of Anakin. And then you posted it! Great minds... Obi-Wan appeals to the lightside is a good way to put it. I would offer that Obi-Wan didn't truly figure Anakin out until Anakin had achieved his knighthood and they became best friends instead of Master/Apprentice. He then knew how to manipulate (for lack of a better word) Luke to get both of them to fufill their destiny.

    Challenges:

    March: Humour Challenge - A vignette Anakin must find a lost lightsaber. Must contain the words: lackey, infiltrate, dither, exacerbate, nadir

    April: Take this phrase and make a vignette out of it: "Only darkness in the things we love."


    May: Vader without the suit (or: One Fine Looking Sith Lord)....


  15. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Okay, I just had to post this here because...well, it is just so awesome.[face_blush] Best picture of Anakin from ROTS, yet. *fans self* And I knew you guys would appreciate. ;)

    [image=http://www.rhonderoo.com/das47.jpg]
  16. Ace_Venom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2002
    star 3
    Good picture of Ani. Great find it is.
  17. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    Ohhhhhhh, pretty! :*

    Definitely looking forward to the Suitless Vader challenge! [face_batting] :p
  18. agentj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 2
    Alethia wrote:
    agentj and I were discussing something fairly similar in her fan fic thread. I'd post the conversation here, but it's very spoiler-heavy and I'd want to ask her first.

    You can certainly go ahead if people here don't mind spoilers, but I think a few do. I think you get a great job of summarizing Anakin's journey to the Dark Side without giving too much away here in this thread.

    For someone allegedly born from a vergence of the Force, Anakin has a lot of father-figures. He's got the mother-hen, over-protective dad in Obi-Wan, and the buddy dad in Palpatine. Hey. Wasn't this the premise of My Two Dads in the '80s? Heh. So Obi-Wan is the disciplinarian, setting the rules, and Palpatine lets Anakin stay out all hours of the night. Which parent would you go to if you got into trouble?

    rhonderoo, I love how our group's picture is the official episode III souvenir movie guide. (I have the 20th Century Fox souvenir movie guide for ANH. It has sheet music for several songs, including the Cantina Theme, which is way cool. The cover isn't as cool as the one for RotS, of course.)

    Way cool challenges for the next three months. You know I can't resist a challenge (anybody see my entry in the challenge race? It's the obvious one about Anakin). Not like I don't have a story I desperately want to finish before May 19.... *sigh* And you have no idea how many unfinished plot bunnies I'm working on right now....
  19. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    And you have no idea how many unfinished plot bunnies I'm working on right now....


    Oh, I believe you. I'm the same way, except that I have plot bunnies/fics for about four different fandoms I should be working on...plus the original novel work I do. There just simply isn't enough time in the world sometimes...

    I would offer that Obi-Wan didn't truly figure Anakin out until Anakin had achieved his knighthood and they became best friends instead of Master/Apprentice. He then knew how to manipulate (for lack of a better word) Luke to get both of them to fufill their destiny.



    I agree with that. I haven't read any of the books between AOTC and ROTS (try finding SW books in English in a non-English speaking country...) but I would love to. I think I'm just going to have to go out and actually buy them... Um, anyway, I haven't read them, so I'm not that familiar with the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan after he's been Knighted. But from what I have heard, I ten to agree with you- that Obi-Wan understands Anakin better after that. And I like how you used 'manipulate' to describe what Obi-Wan does to Luke. It...fits. I never thought of him manipulating Luke, but now I think of it, he really does. Telling Luke just enough about his father, but holding some major things back, basically playing on LUke's pride (where I think he sort of takes after Anakin a bit) saying that it was impossible to bring Anakin back and everything. Luke, like Anakin, I don't enjoys being told that things are impossible. Basically Obi-Wan set it up quite nicely so that Luke would go after Vader with the intent not to kill him, but to bring him back to the Lightside- basically what Obi-Wan tried all those years ago, but failed at.

    And I love that offical picture. ANd the other one too. I know I've seen the other one and I'm pretty sure that I've seen the offical one, but they're both so brilliant. Anakin looks wonderful in this movie.

    (anybody see my entry in the challenge race? It's the obvious one about Anakin).

    No, but I'll check it out...

    As to our conversation, agentj- and to the rest of you- should I cut out the spoilers (is that possible?) and post it here? Or do you just want it left in your thread...

    Or is there a spoiler Anakin/Vader forum out there? Probably not, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
  20. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    For spoilers, as long as it blacked out with [hl] [/hl], it should be okay - unless Herman or one of the other mods comes in and say different. We should probably not make a lot of it total basis for conversation or our entire post as the unspoiled can't really join in the conversation, maybe one or two sentences are okay. Put a warning and a few return spaces. We all know Anakin turns to Darth Vader, and most of the details surrounding that, we just need to be careful we don't let something slip (as I almost have!) unintentionally. :)

    We want everybody to be able to discuss to the best of their ability. I have a feeling like this thread will get popular after ROTS...there will be a LOT to discuss. :p
  21. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    All right then. Thanks, rhonderoo, I'll do that as soon as I have the time (I can't at the moment). And I don't think it's too many spoilers, but I'll go back and check. Thanks again for suggestion.
  22. geo3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    This is quite an intresting thread - thanks, rhonderoo, for pointing me in this direction. It seems that there are discussions like this going on in a lot of places around the Boards - it would be great to consolidate them here, or at least, to bring to this thread the interesting questions and ideas that are being discussed elsewhere.

    On my story thread we recently had a brief skirmish about whether Vader is essentially an existing personality trait in Anakin that grows in ascendancy, or whether Vader represents the complete repression of everything that is Anakin. It's a great topic for discussion, if anyone wants to pick up on it, and I don't think we even scratched the surface!

    I look forward to reading Alethia and agentj's discussion.
  23. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    On my story thread we recently had a brief skirmish about whether Vader is essentially an existing personality trait in Anakin that grows in ascendancy, or whether Vader represents the complete repression of everything that is Anakin. It's a great topic for discussion, if anyone wants to pick up on it, and I don't think we even scratched the surface!

    This kind of goes back to the yin and yang theme in the post up the page a little.


    In my opinion, the fact that Anakin was introduced as a person who "knows nothing of greed" and "gives without wanting anything in return", means that in George's view - Vader represents the complete repression of everything that is Anakin. When Anakin is forced to give up the things he loves, he sees it as a loss of something that is "his". As a slave he never had anything but those relationships to call his own, especially that of his mother. When Anakin is backed against a wall, he tends to come out fighting with everything he has. He needs to feel in control. It's something he's never had. I think in his mind, especially towards the end of ROTS, the Jedi have "backed him up against a wall". For him to have the people (Padmé) and things(the Jedi) that he loves, he needs "power". All it takes is more power, right? Because power is something that a slave doesn't have. How many of us have felt helpless before? (*watches everyone in the room raise hand*) The human mind and psyche seeks to "make things right", to "fix things". It is human nature.

    In Anakin Skywalker, George has made the most human character in the saga. He fears, loves, hates, boasts, and worries in extremes. For the worst to happen to Anakin (and the Jedi, because they don't understand those feelings above), George had to make Anakin become his opposite. Enter the cold, calculating and oh so detached Darth Vader. Like Trace says, ironically, Anakin became what they, the Jedi, aspired to with devastating results.
  24. geo3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    I'd like to address the Jedi ideals of detachment in a little more depth when I have more time.

    In the meantime, I've been re-reading Hesse's Demian for the first time in ages, and what do I find right at the beginning of this tale in which a man tells the story of how he became himself, but the following:

    I wanted only to try to live in accord with the promptings which came from my true self. Why was that so very difficult?"
  25. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    geo3 posted on 3/9/05 11:25am

    In the meantime, I've been re-reading Hesse's Demian for the first time in ages, and what do I find right at the beginning of this tale in which a man tells the story of how he became himself, but the following:

    I wanted only to try to live in accord with the promptings which came from my true self. Why was that so very difficult?"

    />

    Wow, that last line sums it up kind of perfectly doesn't it?

    I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on the Jedi ideals, because I think we'll see them in a different light after ROTS. I know I have my opinion of them, but I'll wait to hear yours. I have a feeling like we are the same wavelength. [face_batting]

    I forgot to post his here yesterday, but People has an "Out and About" photo section and our guy Hayden was captured walking down the street in Beverly Hills.

    [image=http://www.rhonderoo.com/hchristensen.jpg]

    GOOD BREW
    Hayden Christensen grabs a cup of joe Thursday in Beverly Hills. It's the quiet before the storm: In May the actor will don the mask of Darth Vader for the sixth (and final) installment of the Star Wars franchise, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith.


    Has he filled out since AOTC or what? ;)/>/>
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