Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by rhonderoo, Sep 10, 2004.

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  1. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    Alethia:

    It is also interesting how Anakin refers to Palpatine as 'friend', even after what he's gone through/thinks he's gone through. You'd think that he'd be refusing to talk about Palpatine, calling him enemy or something, but instead, even while he thinks about the ways Palpatine's betrayed him, he still says friend. I might be reading too much into it, but that definitely makes me wonder.

    And now it makes me wonder what Anakin is going to do about a confidant. Evil and manipulative or not, Palpatine did listen to Anakin when he needed him and now that Palpatine is gone, Anakin really has no one to go to. He can't really confide in Obi-Wan or Padme, because they already have their own roles in his life. Anakin really needs a mentor- but now his is (luckily) gone. So what's he going to do?

    Anakin asks Obi-Wan to check to see if it's twins. Interesting. So Anakin, no matter how confused and upset he is, still goes to Obi-Wan. Which is nice, because it really shows that old bond they share(d). I think that once they get over this 'situation'- because it really was just sprung on them- that hopefully Obi-Wan and Anakin will take up that old bond again. I think part of it is that Obi Wan doesn't really understand Anakin, just like the rest of the Jedi. There's that big 'No Attachements' rule in the Code and yet not only has Anakin broken it to marry, but he's also going to become a father. That coupled with Anakin's unease and trepidation at the moment makes their relationship very wobbley- and I can only hope that once things start to get fixed/ explained, it will be become what it used to be.



    [b}agentj:[/b]
    I, too, have always wondered about why Anakin sticks with Palpatine all those years after he turns. George mentioned on one of the DVD commentaries that Anakin really doesn't feel betrayed by Palpatine until the very end. We'll apparently see in episode III how much Anakin really trusts Palpatine over, say, his Jedi mentor. (This thread is all spoilers; I can say that!) As a writer, I find that I begin to understand a character better by writing about the stuff I either don't understand or don't like about a character.

    As Darth Vader, Anakin spent a lot of time blaming Obi-Wan for his problems. We obviously saw the start of that as part of the teenage angst in AotC ("Obi-Wan won't let me do anything! Obi-Wan won't let me levitate fruit! Obi-Wan won't let me jump off of moving speeders in rush hour traffic!"), and later we see Vader constantly reminding himself--as well as everyone else--about Obi-Wan, his accomplishments and his failures. It's definitely a love-hate relationship with them. Just like a son who wants to be loved by his dad, but the old-school dad just can't put his arms around his son and hug him and say, "I love you, son."



    Alethia:
    That's the thing. Palpatine is Anakin's mentor. And yet, it's because of Palpatine that Anakin is basically more machine than man, has lost his wife, and is basically stuck in this miserable situation. People argue that Vader is dependant on Palpatine because he's stuck in that suit and lost a lot of his abililty to use the Force. So basically, he goes from being more powerful than Palpatine to being weaker than Palpatine, and therefore he's stuck in that opinion.

    But IMO, I think it's more that whether we like it or not, Palpatine was a friend and mentor to Anakin. An evil, manipulating mentor, but one all the same. He was the only person who didn't really have these preset motions about Anakin and being the Chosen One. Of course, we know that Palpatine all along was scheming to turn Anakin, but still he was there for Anakin. And Anakin really had no reason to distrust him. Therefore I think that even if Vader was still Vader, but out of the suit, he wouldn't kill Palpatine- or at least not right away.

    There's still this connection to Palpatine. Just like Anakin had connections to all these other things (like Padme and his mother) he also had a connection to his mentor. Because Anakin pretty mu
  2. geo3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    Thant's an interesting exchange! I just want to pick up on the question about why Vader actualy stuck with Palpatine/The Emperor ....

    I actually never wondered why Vader stuck with his Master for all those years. It always seemed obvious to me that he had nowhere else to go. And in this case, I think "I have no choice" might have been a valid observation, from Vader's point of view.

    Through his association with the Sith Master, though becoming a Sith, Anakin/Vader became something quite separate and apart from anyone or anything in the Galaxy. The Jedi were destroyed, and with them, all the remnants, memories and understanding of their ?ancient religion.? But for Vader, it is not a hokey religion ? it is a belief system, a personal relationship with the Force, if you will, that guided his growth into adulthood and that defined all of his hopes and dreams until other choices and events twisted his path forever. Aside from his Master and the surviving Jedi, of whom he knows nothing, Vader is deeply, and profoundly alone. His injuries isolate him even more. If he did break away, where would he go? What would he do? With the Emperor he at least has position and power, although it is abundantly clear that there is more to it - that the Emperor has a very deep, very sinister hold over Vader.

    ?You do not know the power of the Dark Side.?

    To me that line is a clear indication that Vader didn?t remain at his Master?s side entirely voluntarily. The Emperor has a real hold over him. I have always thought of that hold as including pain, and torture. Even back in the day, it seemed to me that the Emperor had no qualms about hurting Vader to keep him in line.

    "My friend," the Emperor calls him. I always heard that as a threat.

    Vader is a slave, for all intents and purposes ? held fast by the shackles of fear and despair and hopelessness. I often think that despair and hopelessness are the most powerful shackles of all.

    How cold, how ruthless, how frighteningly efficient and remorseless a villian such circumstances could create when combined.

    Enter Luke.



  3. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    The Jedi were destroyed, and with them, all the remnants, memories and understanding of their ?ancient religion.? But for Vader, it is not a hokey religion ? it is a belief system, a personal relationship with the Force, if you will, that guided his growth into adulthood and that defined all of his hopes and dreams until other choices and events twisted his path forever.

    This is so very true. When I think of Vader and his religion, I always think of ANH. Tarkin makes the statement that Vader is the "only one left" of their religion, and after Obi-Wan and Yoda, he's right. There is a bond there. Even though Vader's bond in the OT centers around Palpatine and Luke, there is a thread of that old religion that binds him to his mortal enemies in a sad, kind of ironic way. Vader, to me, tries to cling to the darkside and is very sucessful for many years, but he has to work at it. When he lets his guard down and speaks of his religion, he calls it the "Force", not the "Dark Side".

    I think I mentioned before in this thread that if you weren't looking at Vader when he makes the statement: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've created. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." You could imagine it being a Jedi just as easily. There's a reverence for the Force in Vader that isn't found in Palaptine. I think that is his devotion to his religion. It's all he has left until he finds Luke. One of the things that I find ironic is how closely he and Obi-Wan's story mirrors each other here. Obi-Wan is referred to as "that old wizard" and Vader is mocked for his "sad devotion to that ancient religion". Both are made pariahs because of their devotion and this is a deep abiding link with them. It seems Obi-Wan did a better job than he thought he did.

    Aside from his Master and the surviving Jedi, of whom he knows nothing, Vader is deeply, and profoundly alone. His injuries isolate him even more. If he did break away, where would he go? What would he do? This is probably one of the saddest things about the situation he got himself into. He wakes up thinking there is nothing left and for twenty years, lives as if he had nothing to lose. In his mind, he doesn't.

    Enter Luke

    ...Indeed. ;)
  4. lazykbys_left Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 4
    . . . I feel soooo outclassed reading this thread . . .

    Um, ditto! What everyone else said! Yeah!
  5. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    lazykbys_left posted on 3/11/05 1:58am

    Um, ditto! What everyone else said! Yeah!

    />

    Pftt. Dont' be silly. [:D] You have as much to contribute as anyone...I spent an hour and half doing that post... [face_laugh]/>/>
  6. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Aside from his Master and the surviving Jedi, of whom he knows nothing, Vader is deeply, and profoundly alone. His injuries isolate him even more. If he did break away, where would he go? What would he do?

    Enter Luke


    I have to echo as well with a big fat yes! I have this feeling (that I may have written about :p) that upon killing Obi-Wan, Vader had to feel the impact of just how incredibly alone he really is. Unless you count Palps ... *loud guffaw*. Riiight.

    I really want to get into some of the discussion here, but don't wish to be too spoiled. I've found I like writing Vader, but I have more trouble writing younger Anakin. Of course, I've only written him at 9 and 12, really... those were probably actually easier than what I'm approaching with my work now, when he's 17. I may be a rabid Obi-Wan fan, but I love Anakin too and want to be fair to him and his story. Perhaps you more acquainted with Anakin can help me stay in bounds ;) The demonization/sainthood thread was invaluable to me in the past.

    -sj loves kevin spacey

  7. LukesTheMan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2004
    star 3
    Yes! He does live like he has nothing to lose and that all changes with the arrival of a bright-eyed farmboy. I can't wait to see how he loses it all in ROTS. Or maybe I can wait...sure to be a tear jerker!
  8. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Here's a link to VaderLVR64's response to a challenge: Forever and Always

    Wonderful Anakin angst! [face_batting]

    SJ - The above fic is a good lead in to Anakin and his insecurities in his late teens (He was 19/20 when he and Padme married). He is the poster child of angsty teenager as we saw in AOTC. I guess that's what drew me to Hayden's protrayal of Anakin three years ago, my son was fifteen at the time and had so much of Anakin's bravado and insecurity that it was uncanny. And Obi handled him the way I was handling my son. You care about them so much you feel it is your duty and your one charge to correct them even at the expense of their fragile egos.

    "It sure didn't look fragile to me! He was a whiny little brat!" I bet you all are saying. [face_batting]

    That's the thing, though... To cover up that insecurity, teenagers, especially act out. Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan is very true to any parent/child relationship at that age. Anakin was older, but I think given their lifestyle, padawans tend to mature a little differently. I think he feels the galaxy is unfair. Obi is unfair. His discipline is holding him back. (Any parent of a teenager can tell you we've heard that one before!!!) Eveything in the galaxy is so unfair to him in his eyes.

    Why can't he see his mother? Why can't he have Padme? He's the Chosen One!

    Unfortunately, he has someone who will build his self-esteem up in Palpatine. I've since tried the "be more positive" with my son (patience is a must [face_hypnotized]) when I can. It is hard sometimes...especially when they get into that 16 - 18 yr old age. Palpatine provides Anakin with the ego stroking he needs. I don't think its wrong that he needs it, it's typical for his age, but we all know Palpatine's reasons are wrong for giving them.

    It goes back to what Altheia and agentj were saying in the conversatin above. I think because Palpatine gave Anakin this at that time of his life, he felt that he was a mentor and that relationship was the only thing there for him until Luke shows up, after this relationship with Obi falls apart. I think in ROTS we'll see a closer Obi and Anakin despite the fact that they end up at odds at the end. I think it is because they care about each other so deeply that their "break up" is so monumental.

  9. lazykbys_left Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks for the pftt, rhonderoo. :)

    rhonderoo:
    if you weren't looking at Vader when he makes the statement: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've created. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." You could imagine it being a Jedi just as easily. There's a reverence for the Force in Vader that isn't found in Palaptine.
    />

    I'm probably repeating something already stated in this thread, but the impression I get from Vader's statement is that he once dipped into the dark side, thinking he could handle it, and then found that he couldn't. Having been burned once, he treats the Force with more respect than the Emperor, who hasn't.


    This is just a random speculation, but could it be that his high midi-chlorian count makes him more susceptible to the guiding aspects of the Force and the seductive aspects of the dark side?/>/>
  10. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    This is just a random speculation, but could it be that his high midi-chlorian count makes him more susceptible to the guiding aspects of the Force and the seductive aspects of the dark side?

    Good catch. I think part of Anakin's problem is that he does feel things more than others, by his genetic nature alone. In EU, Anakin references this alot. I remember in one particular JQ he's drugged by a scientist that studied Force adepts. She hit the motherlode with him and he found he enjoyed "not feeling". He later begs Obi-Wan to take the burden of the prophecy away from him. It was a very moving piece for both as Obi was helpless in this situation. After all, how do you cross the Force? Later Anakin does, and we see his rather harsh punishment... :(
  11. JDH3 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    *Sticks head into thread wondering what he has to offer*

    Interesting, most interesting...

    *sneaks back out quietly*


    JD.
  12. Darth_Lex Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Some really great discussion in this thread the last few days. :D I wanted to add a few thoughts ? subject to the caveat that when I?ve read the ROTS novelization in three weeks I will almost certainly rethink my perspective on Anakin, his fall, and Vader.

    For example, while I?m really intrigued by the questions about how Vader feels about Obi-Wan after ROTS, or why Vader serves the Emperor for nearly a quarter century, I almost can?t even begin to analyze them without knowing exactly how and why Anakin becomes Vader in the first place? Even if you know the major spoilers (which I do, but won?t reference here), there?s still too much nuance of motivation and characterization left unrevealed to really get a full picture of exactly how Lucas is portraying Anakin?s seduction to the dark side.

    The main idea I wanted to raise now is this: I see Anakin and Vader as very much the same character. Unlike some, I don?t see them as opposites, or Vader as a repression or suppression of Anakin. Rather, I see them as fundamentally the same in most respects. I think Lucas did an amazing job ?reverse engineering? Anakin in the PT to establish exactly that aspect of the character. Whether PT Anakin or OT Vader, his deep motivations remain constant.

    Anakin wants to be a hero. In TPM to free the slaves, to see the stars, to be a Jedi; in AOTC to protect Padmé, to save his mother and Obi-Wan, to defeat Dooku; in the Clone Wars EU to win the war, to stop Dooku, even to find and kill Sidious (in Labyrinth of Evil). Vader in the OT has similar goals: to restore peace by crushing the Rebellion, to eliminate those who stand in the way.

    Anakin is the consummate utilitarian ? the end justifies the means. He doesn?t really believe in any deep philosophical or theological agenda; he believes in consequences and results. Growing up a slave and a street kid in Mos Espa, it?s only natural this was the moral perspective he developed. But the Jedi never understood this, and never succeeded in teaching him why ? as a Jedi with immense powers in the Force ? moral principles and selfless duty had to guide his actions instead. That failure played a huge role in Anakin?s vulnerability to Palpatine?s ?win at all costs? guidance during the Clone Wars. And of course, OT Vader also acts this way ? sending the fleet into the asteroids just to chase the Falcon, for example.

    Anakin has supreme confidence in his own abilities, and believes in his unlimited capacity for ?fixing things? that are wrong. He builds his own Podracer, and has no qualms about activating (and flying!) a starfighter if it will help save his friends. He flies through power couplings, leaps into speeder traffic, and thinks he and Padmé can rescue Obi-Wan themselves. Vader equally believes the Imperial officers are generally incompetent and does anything significant himself ? interrogating Leia Organa, repelling the snubfighter attack on the Death Star, and searching for Luke Skywalker. Not to mention, ?Join me, and together we will rule the galaxy as father and son.? [face_mischief]

    Anakin is impatient, with his own power and with events beyond his control. He can?t sit and wait; he has to take action now. Qui-Gon hasn?t even caught his breath after the duel with Maul on Tatooine when he has to tell Anakin, ?We must be patient.? :p He feels he?s being held back, that all he needs is more power to achieve his goals (readiness for the Trials, saving Shmi, etc.). And now when I hear the Emperor tell Vader ?I told you to remain with the fleet? in ROTJ, I can only laugh at the irony of how reminiscent it is of ?This weapon is your life!? and other admonitions from Obi-Wan in AOTC. ;) Similarly, he also demands dignity and respect: from ?I?m a person, and my name is Anakin.? to ?The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.?

    Anakin wears his heart on his sleeve. Whether anger, grief, friendship, love, fear, or anything else, we never doubt what he?s feeling. While Vader is somewhat more controlled, the flashes of emotion are very much there.
  13. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Wonderful observations, all, Lex. I really don't know what to comment on because I'm just sitting here nodding and agreeing with you.

    I guess I might add that something that has always driven Anakin are his personal connections to people. Anakin loves deeply, it's true, but it's a very possessive type of love. It's fairly easy to see how that developed in his being a slave at a young age. He wants to be his own owner for one thing, but moreover, he doesn't want anyone else to tell him who he can and can't be with. And even though the Jedi have their reasons for taking him from his mother, to him I'm sure it must have seemed, on some level, that he was being sold into another kind of slavery. At least, I'm sure Palps could convince him of that ;)

    The irony of this flaw (if you call it that) is that it also has it's saving grace. Anakin's intense personal connections are what make him so susceptible to Palpatine in the PT (because, unlike Obi-Wan, Palpatine is willing and able to give the boy whatever doting he might want). It's also what makes him susceptible to the Dark Side in general, as we see with the death of his mother in AotC.

    Now anyone would be angry in that situation, of course. Obi-Wan certainly had a similar situation in TPM as did Luke at the mention of Leia being turned in RotJ. The difference is that Anakin took that last step, gave in fully instead of relinquishing that ownership to the Force. He never sees that it isn't all right to let anger rule you in such moments. Plus, it's hard to resist. Anakin is powerful, but I might argue that he is not altogether very strong on some points.

    Anyway, my point about the irony of this :p ... Anakin's deep emotional connection to people (read: family members) is also what moves him to kill Palpatine in RotJ and to be redeemed (argue Anakin, Vader, whatever. It's a negligable difference in my eyes and I'm not spoiled so I can't talk about it any other way). But yes, love can be used for great good or great evil. When it's jealous, like in the PT, it tends towards evil. When it's selfless, like in RotJ, it tends towards good.

    Also...

    And now when I hear the Emperor tell Vader ?I told you to remain with the fleet? in ROTJ, I can only laugh at the irony of how reminiscent it is of ?This weapon is your life!? and other admonitions from Obi-Wan in AOTC.

    I completely hadn't thought of that before, but now I'm always going to think that. Speaking of irony... [face_laugh] You know, it kind of makes me wonder if Palps was ever really in control of Vader. I think it's safe to say at least that that particular apprentice didn't turn out quite as planned.

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  14. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    In Anakin Skywalker, George has made the most human character in the saga. He fears, loves, hates, boasts, and worries in extremes.

    In extremes. I think that's where the problem lies. Anakin does everything to the extreme- and no one knows how to deal with it. The Jedi want to Anakin to become detached from everything- but it is simply impossible. If Anakin was a normal person- without the extreme nature, they might succeed. But because it is in him to do everything to the extreme- it just can't be done. And the Jedi need to learn from that and start at that point- except that they don't/can't. They need to gradually work him down, but they don't see it that way. They try to treat him like any other Jedi, which in some cases, for some people, is a good thing. But not in Anakin's case... Anakin's different.


    I wanted only to try to live in accord with the promptings which came from my true self. Why was that so very difficult?"


    Excellent quote. I think I'm going to need to find that book...

    There's a reverence for the Force in Vader that isn't found in Palaptine. I think that is his devotion to his religion.

    I agree. I think to Palpatine, the Force is just power. Actually, I think to most Sith it's that way. There's that quote in ROTS, which I think it explains it all...

    "A Jedi gains power through understanding; a Sith gains understanding through power.."

    The Emperor has a real hold over him. I have always thought of that hold as including pain, and torture. Even back in the day, it seemed to me that the Emperor had no qualms about hurting Vader to keep him in line.

    Yes, I think there is that aspect to their relationship. Even if Vader had someplace to go, I don't think he would/could, because of Palpatine. For one thing, Vader is dependant on that suit and probably the medical care of the Empire. Palpatine refuses to help him and he dies. But even if Vader was healthy, I still think that he knows that Palpatine would never let him just walk away. Palpatine, like shown with Dooku, has no scruples about killing apprentices/ associates. And Vader knows this. If Vader were to leave, Palpatine would not let him just go. He'd either have to kill Palpatine first, or continually be on the run.

    Palpatine also doesn't like failure- we've seen that. It wouldn't surprise me if Vader hadn't been punished in the past for different things. He probably, to a certain extent, fears Palpatine. Palpatine is so manipulative that he uses Vader's fears to keep him in line. This is very evident in ROTS and ROTJ, IMO. Both of those movies have heavy under-tones of Palpatine's manipulations...

    "My friend," the Emperor calls him. I always heard that as a threat.

    Vader is a slave, for all intents and purposes ? held fast by the shackles of fear and despair and hopelessness. I often think that despair and hopelessness are the most powerful shackles of all.


    I don't know- the 'My friend' comment, I see now, at least, as being true. Palpatine and Vader were friends. Maybe not anymore, and Palpatine's probably mocking Vader at that point, but they did use to be friends and I think it's sort of a reminder of that...

    As for Vader being a slave- yes. I don't he's ever really been free. First he was a slave on Tatooine, then a slave to the Jedi Order and now a slave to Palpatine. It really makes you feel sorry for him- the one thing he wants is freedom, yet he never gets it, until he dies...


    How cold, how ruthless, how frighteningly efficient and remorseless a villian such circumstances could create when combined.

    Enter Luke.


    Indeed. Luke reveals to Vader his former self- the young Jedi who is destined for great things... and Vader, the perfect villian, is now forced to reevaluate some things...

    Vader had to feel the impact of just how incredibly alone he really is. Unless you count Palps ...

    Actually, I wouldn't be so skeptical if I were you. All right, I'll
  15. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    This is such a great discussion of a wonderfully complex character. I haven't anything to add really.

    One thing made me laugh It led me believe that it was just Hayden who was doing the bad acting. Then I saw something else that Hayden was in, and realized that Anakin was supposed to be acting like that- that was how Lucas portrayed him in the first place.

    I know a lot of people that also thought Hayden was just acting poorly in AOTC but, luckily I had seen him in Higher Ground and Life as a House before AOTC so I already knew that Hayden could act. So I thought it was what GL wanted for Anakin and dealt with it accordingly.

    It should be interesting to see people's reactions to Vader once ROTS is out. I, for one, really despised Vader and liked Anakin a lot (esp. in AOTC). I separated them in my mind with very distinct lines. Those lines are definitely going to be blurred and later destroyed in ROTS.

    As for the Demonization/Sainthood characterization thread, it may have been locked by the thread owner. I'm not sure. It's been a while... It was quite active for some time before the lock.
  16. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    a freind said you were looking for this thread

    It was auto locked due to age, but you might get some good jumping off points from it :)
  17. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Thanks Breezy!

    Wow, some great discussion and I'm going to come back after I've soaked some of it in (and done some housework [face_frustrated]).

    I agree with you, Lex, that Anakin and Vader are the same person. In response to geo's question about the repression of Anakin and emergence of Vader, it still applies. Say a person is shy until they go through some kind of plastic surgery and they are made the center of attention all of the time, that attribute can be replaced by vanity, or it could have been there all along. I don't know if I'm even close to making myself clear as I've only had one cup of coffee this am. :p But I'll come back and try again later.

    I agree that some folks didn't like Hayden's portrayl of Anakin (or even the character of Anakin) in AOTC, but a deeper look gives you a different side or view of Anakin, and it fits with OT Vader. I think ROTS will connect the parts we're missing, of course. Han was my favorite OT character until I watched AOTC, and was entranced by this kid who would become one of the greatest villains ever. Like Lex, I paid attention to some of the subtle things like mannerisms, and it just all became so clear. Before I knew it I was watching Vader in ESB and especially ROTJ with a different perspective. Like I said before, now I see Hayden's Anakin under the helmet.

    One thing I'll throw out there that we've been discussing in 3SA regarding Anakin and the Jedi, as their fates are so entertwined: Do you see the Jedi as "observers" of Anakin vs. his family?

    Some interesting observations have been posed in watching the PT, especially TPM and AOTC that will be even more powerful when we see ROTS. Even in EU, it seems that the Jedi (with the exception of Obi-Wan) merely observed this "vergence" rather than mold it or welcome it. In a lot of ways, Obi-Wan is really on his own with Anakin (to Anakin's detriment). I've tried and I cannot see how they ever really accepted him. I'll grant Yoda a little reprieve because I think he sees the error of his ways when it is all said and done, but Mace and the rest of the council seem to view him as something to be tolerated. Could it be that Anakin was "offered" to them by the Force and the only one to listen and pay attention and learn was Qui-Gon and then later Obi-Wan? (And Yoda begrudgingly) I know it's out there, but could Anakin have been the Jedi's test and they failed, because of their seclusion from the rest of the galaxy?

    FYI: I went back and changed the main page first post as I realized it sounded a little unwelcoming to people that don't write Anakin centered fics. Anyone is welcome to come and discuss and that wasn't properly conveyed when I wrote it the first time. :)
  18. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Hey, I miss that thread. Maybe it would be good to get it unlocked. Can we request that?

    Palpatine, like Obi-Wan, used to be a father figure for Anakin and still, I think, in effect is.

    Well, yes, but on the other hand it's hardly the kind of warm, loving relationship Anakin really likes (such as with his mother or Padmé). Even though he has the father figure in Palps, I believe after a while he would become wise to the fact that Palpatine really feels no affection towards him. Even though Obi-Wan is not the *best* person at expressing his emotions :p, he truly did care about Anakin. I think once Anakin cast that off and once Palpatine's grip was secure, Vader has to realise that he's traded a strained relationship for a completely manipulative one.

    It's not until Luke enters the picture that Vader is reminded of what he once had- and what he could have now.

    Absolutely. Personally, I like to think the cracking starts in ANH when he meets up again with Obi-Wan. It might have been ok if not for the fact that he actually killed Obi-Wan and that Obi-Wan let him. There's a lot to question about those motives, but I have to think that one result would be getting Vader to second-guess himself and to remember the past he'd tried to supress. With Kenobi dead, there goes the last link to Anakin's Jedi life... so he thinks. But Obi-Wan has Luke, the Ace in the hole, and Vader is very soon going to be confronted with that reality. The crack widens.

    Not to mention that, probably like most parents, Obi-Wan isn't sure what to do half of the time. He's a Jedi- he's not trained to deal with emotional teenagers who take everything to the extreme.

    Yeah, a certain aspect of it is just normal parent/child relationships. But throw in the further complications... Obi-Wan and Anakin are complete opposites in personality (especially in how they express themselves. I don't just think it's a Jedi thing), Obi-Wan was too young, Anakin was too old, the Jedi handled the situation with his mother all wrong, Qui-Gon died after having already set things in motion... it really makes this relationship extremely difficult for both of them. I feel for both of them because, while my personality is a *lot* like Obi-Wan's, I'm also a teenager and have parents.

    Admitedly, I sometimes find Anakin's actions a bit childish. I'm sure I've acted that way on occasions, but tend more towards being overly serious (though incredibly sarcastic and good-humoured in that sense). Basically, I think I'm in a great position to sympathise with both sides. I just happen to like Obi-Wan more ;)

    But he was just out of his league with Anakin... And neither of them can really acknowledge it.

    I hate that they cut the scene in AotC where Obi-Wan is talking to Mace. I love the part where Obi-Wan admits that Anakin was too old to be trained. He may not be able to openly acknowledge it, but I'm sure Obi-Wan's had his misgivings from the beginning. He didn't think Anakin should have been trained but convinced himself otherwise for Qui-Gon's sake. But I'm not sure if he himself was ever convinced he could do it.

    As for Anakin, I believe he probably started out admiring Obi-Wan very much in the way that little kids admire their father-figures (and guys with swords ;)). But as he grows up, as he can see Obi-Wan as a flawed human, and as Palpatine works the seeds of resentment into his brain, I think Anakin *does* start to acknowledge that he doesn't believe Obi-Wan was up to it.

    In fact, I thought that was one of the major tensions of AotC. Sure, he says he's grateful to be Obi-Wan's apprentice and on some level he is. But deep down, I think he has really become convinced that Obi-Wan's not cut out for his work. The sad thing is, he's fairly accurate in that, and I think Obi-Wan has the exact same doubts.

    I mean, who can forget:

    OBI-WAN: And you will learn to follow my lead.
    ANAKIN: Why?
    OBI-WAN: What?

    That's just... it's one of my favourite exchanges in the whole saga. I just love it. I especially love how A
  19. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Re: the thing about bad characterisation

    It's not that I don't realise everyone has their own view on a character. My point is that, unless you're writing an AU, don't write it AU! tongue And many AU's should still logically retain the same characterisations, just in different situations. I don't think it's unreasonable to say 'that was out of character for so and so' when it's clearly not something this character from the films would say or do under said circumstances. Grown men shouldn't act like teenage girls and vice versa. It just turns me off of a story when the characterisation aren't believeable. If there's a reason given and shown for why the character is behaving differently in a particular story, then that's completely fine. I just don't get it when people write Star Wars characters using things like phrases that are clearly Americanisms or Britishisms or whatnot. I'm sorry, I just don't see SW characters saying things like 'bummer', 'hell/heck yeah!', 'dude', 'blimey!', or any other clearly out of place slangs. And this is without even considering OOC mush, which I won't get into....

    Ok, sorry, that was a rather random tangent from the topic at hand, wasn't it? wink I do have something to note, though. I'm in the planning stages of a story that's pretty severely AU and centered around Obi-Wan and Anakin... but get this- more centered around Anakin shock

    *sees people fainting*

    No, come back, I need your help sad I might need someone with another POV to look over that when I do start writing it or even perhaps once I get the outline of it completely hammered out, which I'm working on now.




    I got this from SJ's last post in the Demonization/Sainthood thread. This was one of the things that made me ask to start this thread. All of the posts in the recent days have basically been extrememly interesting, and I think we are all agreeing, even if certain aspects of his character are seen differently.

    The last few posts in the D/S thread brought up some good points. We all have our favorite characters, and feel pretty comfortable writing them. But what about the characters they interact with? For Anakin, you better be damn good at writing Obi-Wan and Padmé especially to create a credible, well-written story. Even Palaptine figures way up there. Vader has always been easier for me to write because he IS so structured. He can be hard to "channel" so to speak without going over the top, because just a little too much and you don't have Darth Vader. But most of us have seen the movies so much and are familiar enough with his character that we can get somewhere close at least. Anakin for me is always MUCH harder. He's newer, more complex and a bit more volatile. I find it most difficult to write him WITH Obi-Wan. I don't know why. I can write him and Padme all day, and think I get it somewhat right. I can even do Obi-Wan by himself okay...nowhere near as good as most, though. And Anakin by himself is sometimes like trying to figure out the meaning of life...(okay, not that difficult:p). Especially as he gets darker as he seems to be at such a juxtaposition with himself.
  20. Ace_Venom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2002
    star 3
    I sometimes debate on whether or not Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same person. Vader said in RotJ that the name Anakin Skywalker held no meaning to him rather defensively. Some people see that as an admission that they are one in the same. I see the relationship between Anakin and Vader as the obverse and reverse of a coin. Anakin does reach out to Luke in ESB, but he doesn't know how to communicate a desire to save someone without the twisted, selfish desires of Darth Vader at the forefront.

    Conversely, Vader does not know how to deal with the emotions of Anakin Skywalker, save for his rage. Vader seems to have had some respect for Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH, opting to face his former master alone rather than just take the easy route and send the Stormtroopers after him. Would Vader have allowed Kenobi to join him if his old master had desired to do so? Probably not. But Vader really didn't know how to deal with Anakin's desire to reach out to his old master, his best friend, and seemed to be quite confused when Kenobi allowed himself to be killed.

    Those are just some examples of why I think it's really just a severe case of Disassociative Identity Disorder. Darth Vader as we know him in the OT was born from severe trauma. He was a shadow of Anakin Skywalker, the man he once was. The seed apparently developed because Anakin kept trying to be the ideal Jedi in the PT, but couldn't let go of those he loved. He dealt with it by throwing himself into his Jedi training, but he really cracked in AotC, giving us a glimpse of the personality we know as Darth Vader. But Vader wasn't the dominant personality and Anakin won out in the end.

    Or Vader can simply be Anakin's id, making Anakin/Vader even more complex than we thought.
  21. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    I know a lot of people that also thought Hayden was just acting poorly in AOTC but, luckily I had seen him in Higher Ground and Life as a House before AOTC so I already knew that Hayden could act. So I thought it was what GL wanted for Anakin and dealt with it accordingly.


    Nods. Yep, Life as a House is what I saw. Didn't recognise him at first, until I read the box (I saw it on DVD) and then it was such a revelation because I realized that since he can act, the poor acting in AOTC must have been the way the character was actually written. And then it was such a revelation- it all made sense...

    I separated them in my mind with very distinct lines. Those lines are definitely going to be blurred and later destroyed in ROTS.

    Yes- I used to always separate them. I saw ESB first and so though I knew that Vader was really Anakin Skywalker, to me it was still as if there was this separation between them. It wasn't until after I saw AOTC again, after I knew that the acting wasn't at fault, that's how Anakin was written, that I started to see the two characters blur together. And reading ROTS spoilers has destroyed the lines even more. Just think of all the discussion topics it will bring...

    It was auto locked due to age,

    *sigh* I figured that, but I thought I ought to ask, just to make sure, since that thread did look really interesting.

    Like Lex, I paid attention to some of the subtle things like mannerisms, and it just all became so clear.

    Exactly. Now that I've watched the movie again several times after my little revelation, there are som many connections between Anakin and Vader that it just kind of leaves you stupified. Anakin is Vader. No two ways about it. IMO, at least...

    In a lot of ways, Obi-Wan is really on his own with Anakin (to Anakin's detriment). I've tried and I cannot see how they ever really accepted him. I'll grant Yoda a little reprieve because I think he sees the error of his ways when it is all said and done, but Mace and the rest of the council seem to view him as something to be tolerated.

    This is the reason I dislike the other Jedi. Yes, I can understand that to the rest of the Jedi, Anakin is something new to them and basically 'unexplored territory'. But that means that they should jump at the chance to study him, not barely tolerate his presence. On one hand, they see him as the Chosen One, this savior. On the other hand, they see him as this too old kid that can't do anything. They need to find a balance, but they don't. They just don't know how to handle him and that's the sad thing, because it leaves him open to, well, Palpatine.

    I know it's out there, but could Anakin have been the Jedi's test and they failed, because of their seclusion from the rest of the galaxy?


    It's not out there, rhoderoo. And I agree with you. I never thought of it exactly that way, but now that I do, it really does make sense...

    Even though he has the father figure in Palps, I believe after a while he would become wise to the fact that Palpatine really feels no affection towards him.

    In one way, I agree with you. I believe that in the passing of time, perhaps it would have become clear that Palpatine doesn't really care for him that much- that to Palpatine, Vader is just an apprentice, a servant, a slave that has fallen and is not even half the person they used to be. (Which probably suits Palpatine just fine, because it means that he's so much easier to control). On the other hand, it's amazing how ignoring things helps you hide them. Deep down, Vader probably does realize that Palpatine is just using him and doesn't really care for him anymore (in ROTJ, for instance, Palpatine has no qualms in announcing in front of Vader that Luke should kill his father). But he probably ignores those feelings and refuses to acknowldge them. There's some saying that I can't think of at the moment that fits here. Turning a blind-eye or something, maybe. In any c
  22. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    You might also want to watch the movie Shattered Glass Hayden plays Stephen Glass in such a creepy way that it gave me chills - So I knew he'd be able to play Vader well...

    Great discussions, especially the ones centering around Vader's 'slavery' to Palpatine and perhaps Anakin's perception of his 'slavery' within the Jedi Order. Giving me lots to think about. I tend to not write Anakin (except as a kid) because I'm not sure if I could get him down pat. The byplay of innocence and evil intent is so rivetting, though. I may have to try it...
  23. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    You might also want to watch the movie Shattered Glass Hayden plays Stephen Glass in such a creepy way that it gave me chills - So I knew he'd be able to play Vader well...

    There's a desperation to him in Shattered Glass that I bet we'll see a little bit of in ROTS. He plays desperate, emotional, angry well.


  24. Ace_Venom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2002
    star 3
    I really should check that movie out. Is it really good?
  25. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    It is. :D

    Life as a House had me crying throught the whole thing.
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